Goldfish62
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I can't be absolutely certain, but pretty sure it's from the start of the action irrespective of how many days strikes are actually held on.
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SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019
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Thought on the difference in wording between SWR and RMT that I’ve read somewhere else she appears to make sense.
Perhaps both sides are telling the truth, but it’s abour semantics rather than the wording.
So the RMT have put their foot down on GA and said no extension of DOO, which they’ve got. all services will be guard operated with the exception of where DOO already exists. GA are permitted to run DOO on a section of line where it already exists if it’s operationally needed.
However SWR have said we want to be able to run service DOO when needed, the big difference however is that there is no DOO permitted on the South Western network (except where Southern share the lines).
Hopefully my point makes sense.
Perhaps both sides are telling the truth, but it’s abour semantics rather than the wording.
So the RMT have put their foot down on GA and said no extension of DOO, which they’ve got. all services will be guard operated with the exception of where DOO already exists. GA are permitted to run DOO on a section of line where it already exists if it’s operationally needed.
However SWR have said we want to be able to run service DOO when needed, the big difference however is that there is no DOO permitted on the South Western network (except where Southern share the lines).
Hopefully my point makes sense.
bb21
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I can't speak for other TOCs but at least where we are, contingency guards are subject to the same support/disciplinary process as a normal guard for safety incidents.
Certain contingency guards have definitely had their competencies taken off them before from what I know.
There may well be less known cases compared to normal guards as (1) there are less contingency guards about and (2) they work far fewer trains hence far less incidents in absolute numbers.
Absolutely.
Interpretation, interpretation, interpretation.
I do not see how both sides ca be telling the truth if one says nothing has changed and the other says it has.
Perhaps both sides need to explain themselves in more detail.
Goldfish62
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Agreed. Either one is lying or both are lying!
So essentially SWR want to run trains with guards on most of the time, except for when it’s operationally needed. The RMT want no trains to run without a guard.
The RMT have allowed GA to run some trains DOO when operationally needed, but only on lines already running DOO. Effectively the RMT wouldn’t be able to reject the deal if DOO already existed towards Woking, or somewhere similar on the Windsor side. As it is, the deals can’t be compared like for like.
dorsetdesiro
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I can't help but think as the Transport Secretary is a Surrey MP therefore SWR would be his local rail operator, then the union may be applying political pressure to collapse the SW franchise in an attempt to get him to step down and be replaced by someone else who is more "in touch".
If the current Transport Secretary's constituency is in Suffolk then I don't think the union will give Greater Anglia a easy ride nor let them off...
If the current Transport Secretary's constituency is in Suffolk then I don't think the union will give Greater Anglia a easy ride nor let them off...
Southern and GWR also run lots of services through Grayling's constituency. Should the NUR be trying to collapse these franchises too?
If the two assertions are "nothing has changed", and "something has changed", the truth has to be one of those, as there are no other alternatives. It is a binary situation, either something has changed or it hasn't, it is like saying a woman is pregnant or isn't pregnant.
bb21
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Depends on what you are comparing it to.
dorsetdesiro
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Southern also had strikes under his watch also it's part of the beleaguered GTR. GWR may be fortunate for now also if they have guards on their North Downs services then the union shouldn't be going after them.
At first I was opposed to the strike actions on SWR, that they were rarer under SWT, and I found it hard to accept the changes like the new TOC, your fairly reliable morning train getting less punctual as each day passes also the NR problems within London impacting services because the train coming from Waterloo would be late but the train leaving Weymouth into the other direction would be unaffected until it reaches the London suburbs!
I am finding myself very slowly supporting the union, though I don't approve 100%, as I think the TOC, NR and the DfT all are doing a really bad job of this mess. The TOC needs to protect all guards' jobs to stop the strikes, the DfT needs to look at the SW franchise terms again as some areas are unworkable such as the power supply too weak to run more trains, a clause should be added for all guards to keep their jobs, keep the timetable unchanged etc. If SWR doesn't agree then other operators should be invited to bid. The DfT really needs to take a tougher stance with NR to get them to perform better or break them up into smaller regional units dedicated to each region or franchise.
As the performance under SWT, down this way, was mostly acceptable but this worsened when SWR took over and the infrastructure issues cropping up from NR negligence/poor workmanship. If say the SW franchise terms were put back to pre-August 17, like no obligation to change the timetable and guards feel secure with their jobs, trains on time, if SWT were still around as they have 20 year experience of the network, instead of less aware FirstGroup senior managers, then the performance may improve. If something seemed to work fine before then why tinker to make it worse, so how about leaving well alone?
When you have a Transport Secretary who refuses to be accountable, he is supposedly in charge of the whole thing, and is attempting to wash his hands of the GTR & Northern timetable fiasco. Then it would be better for him to go and replaced by someone more capable to sort things out. The PM is refusing to fire him and he won't step down then I am happy to accept for the union to make things unbearable for SWR, GTR and Northern to try flush him out of power.
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3141
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And are you also happy that passengers are seriously affected while the RMT tries to "flush him out of power"? Are strikes aimed at removing a public official desirable?
Robertj21a
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Unions taking on 'political' issues rarely ends well, quite apart from it being train enthusiasts on a forum who seem to have decided on his capabilities !
GWR don't run any services through Grayling's constituency.
theironroad
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I guess they meant GTR, but as they still use the defunct term NUR I'm not really too sure what they mean......
Just possibly the GWR reading Gatwick service which runs east west at the foot of Boxhill.
If it is not at the Southern edge of his constituency it is very close.
It is certainly only 6 miles from his home south of Ashtead.
Your quite right. They can't be compared.
But surely one is comparing it to what was there previously and what was there previously is one set of things.Depends on what you are comparing it to.
If you have a list of items you bought and you go back to a shop a month later with that same list, if you don't stick to it then something has changed. if you stick to it then it hasn't change.
Of course if both sides are talking about different lists, to use my analogy, then that suggests something is up with the negotiations and people doing the discussing.
After all if you want to agree something, you need to have the same thing your discussing or you won't get anywhere. It's pointless some side discussing one set of points and the other side discussing a different set.
Are ACAS given a set of documents that are under discussion. If so who decides what documents need to be discussed? Could SWR want to discuss 10 points and the RMT a totally different set of points, with either side not interested in the points the other side wish to discuss?
Could we even reach a stage where they start arguing over what they wish to discuss through ACAS, even before the discussions start on said points?
Are you happy that tax payers money is used to prop up TOCs that have industrial action? Are you happy that Chris Grayling seems to want to get rid of guards even if it leads to a worse service for passengers and months of disruption?
I don't see any savings from the OBS on GTR. As for improvements, trains are still being cancelled.
So if the DFT & industry want meaningful change , there’s really only one option currently available, stand firm, or as some others have stated maybe the whole Brexit chaos means Govt are eventually willing to concede this one, and RNT as good as know it .
I'm personally not convinced of the meaningfulness of the change.
If they really do mean well then I think their good intentions are misplaced. I'm skeptical that they do mean well though.
Anyone know if South Western Railway have been able to runs any more services today? I had been told on Twitter that this Saturdays timetable would depend on the number of staff avilable.
I can't imagine the precise same number of staff are avilable each Saturday.
I can't imagine the precise same number of staff are avilable each Saturday.
This is what their Web Site says about Shepperton for today :
There are no TfL buses and on Tuesday they had acceptance on the non TfL bus. It seems they either can't agree or can't be bothered to agree acceptance on Saturdays. Unless it is agrees but they can't be bothered to advertise it.
As for Berrylands that is closed despite trains stopping there. I did point that out on Twitter last week.
They apologised for the confusion. Perhaps they are just so so busy, they don't have time to inform. The people who write disruption notices. Or maybe they do have time but the people writing the notices don't have time to update or or just simply couldn't care less. Maybe they have a bad manager, which doesn't inspire them to do a good job.
Can anyone who works for SWR and wouldn't be comprising their own job, explain why things are like this? How difficult is it to provide accurate information?
https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-industrial-action/saturday-4-august
There are no TfL buses and on Tuesday they had acceptance on the non TfL bus. It seems they either can't agree or can't be bothered to agree acceptance on Saturdays. Unless it is agrees but they can't be bothered to advertise it.
As for Berrylands that is closed despite trains stopping there. I did point that out on Twitter last week.
They apologised for the confusion. Perhaps they are just so so busy, they don't have time to inform. The people who write disruption notices. Or maybe they do have time but the people writing the notices don't have time to update or or just simply couldn't care less. Maybe they have a bad manager, which doesn't inspire them to do a good job.
Can anyone who works for SWR and wouldn't be comprising their own job, explain why things are like this? How difficult is it to provide accurate information?
I’m sure if Labour win the next election, Mr Corbyn will do anything to avoid a huge public war with the likes of Mr Cash, so chances are guards would be ok, however it didn’t stop his colleague Mr Khan quietly axing all the bus conductors Boris recruited, so I’ve no idea who’s really truthful about a genuine commitment to public transport, workers rights etc etc
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3141
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I can think of several further reasons why some information isn't available, but I'd go for the simplest explanation, which is that finding out which staff are going to be available and putting together a timetable which is likely to work is a huge and difficult job, and eventually time starts running out so they have to prioritise.
The thing is they put the bus info out for Tuesday to Shepperton so why couldn't they put it out for today?
How many extra minutes would it take to amend today, whilst amending Tuesday?
It looks like today's timetable hasn't changed or at least not Portsmouth to Waterloo. If that is the case then could they not spend time on the info side.
Another option, which would take not much time would be to put a caveat to say some of this information may not be accurate as we have not had time to vaeify it all. I think better more positive wording could be used than that but it would need to say in some form or another that the info may not be correct.
They were running replacement hourly buses via Cobham to Surbtion. I assume they were starting from Guildford. Great to see they could source some buses today. So a plus point to SWR. Alas one set of passengers claim they were stuck at Oxshott for over 2.5 hours. The bus after 17:00 was running 50 minutes late for some unknown reason. I use unknown there in the same way journalists use it.
I'd hope the buaes were in the Journey Planner but I have no way of finding out now. They don't appear on Real Time Trains but that doesn't mean they didn't appear on National Rail Enquiries.
Of course if you'd just read the strike information page, you would think none were running because although one of the timetables is titled with Guildford via Effingham Junction, it has no bus info for the journeys via Cobham or even references to. Guildford. Their are buses but those are for other lines.
Also the page itself had the follpwing:
Still at least the buses ran.
I'd hope the buaes were in the Journey Planner but I have no way of finding out now. They don't appear on Real Time Trains but that doesn't mean they didn't appear on National Rail Enquiries.
Of course if you'd just read the strike information page, you would think none were running because although one of the timetables is titled with Guildford via Effingham Junction, it has no bus info for the journeys via Cobham or even references to. Guildford. Their are buses but those are for other lines.
Also the page itself had the follpwing:
Still at least the buses ran.
Looks like yesterday there was an hourly service on the Hounslow line, running between Waterloo and Twickenham via Hounslow and return, leaving at xx07 at both ends *. Last week there was no service at all.
* With a couple of extras, like the 2Z47 1700 London Waterloo to London Waterloo which was all stations out via Richmond and return via Brentford. There was also the 2V51 1737 London Waterloo to London Waterloo, which was all stations to Hounslow via Brentford then Twickenham, Richmond, Putney, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall and Waterloo.
* With a couple of extras, like the 2Z47 1700 London Waterloo to London Waterloo which was all stations out via Richmond and return via Brentford. There was also the 2V51 1737 London Waterloo to London Waterloo, which was all stations to Hounslow via Brentford then Twickenham, Richmond, Putney, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall and Waterloo.
I got a response from SWR to be fair to them.
The reason the addition AL bud service wasn't mentioned on the disruption page was due to it being last minute.
That doesn't explain Berrylands being closed or the Shepperton branch being told to use TfL buses when there are not any.
Still it's a good example of them being able to arange additional services, even if they aren't advertised in all the places you might expect.
The reason the addition AL bud service wasn't mentioned on the disruption page was due to it being last minute.
That doesn't explain Berrylands being closed or the Shepperton branch being told to use TfL buses when there are not any.
Still it's a good example of them being able to arange additional services, even if they aren't advertised in all the places you might expect.
Apparently the same ticket acceptance is in force each strike day so that means acceptance to Shepperton did exist yesterday on local buses, despite the Web Site strike info saying otherwise.
Obviously there is the issue of thr 28 July and maybe Thursday before that when it said you need to use local buses, with no ticket acceptance in place. It's not possible for both to apply.
So I'll use common sense and once ticket acceptance is in place, it remains in place for all future strikes, even if the Web Site says other wise and this cancels out the previous non acceptance on all future strike dates.
Edit: it turns out there was info about Shepperton but it wasn't under the 4th August strike info page but the main FAQ. I wasn't aware until now that one needed to also check the man FAQ for bus info.
Obviously there is the issue of thr 28 July and maybe Thursday before that when it said you need to use local buses, with no ticket acceptance in place. It's not possible for both to apply.
So I'll use common sense and once ticket acceptance is in place, it remains in place for all future strikes, even if the Web Site says other wise and this cancels out the previous non acceptance on all future strike dates.
Edit: it turns out there was info about Shepperton but it wasn't under the 4th August strike info page but the main FAQ. I wasn't aware until now that one needed to also check the man FAQ for bus info.
https://www.southwesternrailway.com/plan-my-journey/rmt-industrial-action
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