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School bus provision

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The Ham

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The current rules are that children aged 8 and over are only entitled to free school travel if they live more than 3 miles (about 5km) away. Yet in the planning process for new developments adults are generally expected to walk 2km and cycle 5km.

How is it that 8 year olds are expected to walk over twice as far as adults? In reality it results in children being driven to school.

This petition asks for a change so that the 3 mile still applies but anyone more than 2km (circa 1.25km) away should be able to cycle for a significant portion of the route.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/224790

Feel free to share on your social media.

The following goes into a bit more detail for those that are interested, but feel free to move on to something else at this point.

In the UK we often have a lot of good things which are provided by the government, like the NHS which turned 70 this year. However from time to time there are some things which aren't so well thought out.

For instance, within our planning process there's guidance which states that upto 2km is suitable for most people to walk to get somewhere, with distances upto 5km being the distance where people are expected to cycle. However when it comes to school children having free bus travel the safe walking distance is 2 miles for those aged 8 and under and 3 miles for secondary (which is effectively 5 km).

3 miles would take about an hour walk, which means that some 11 year olds may not be getting home until about 4pm (depending on end of school times). If they were to attend an after school club then this could be getting on for 5pm or later (also depending on how long the club lasts for). Given that the school holidays are mostly focused during the summer months this then means that for much of the school year these children, especially those who want to broaden their experiences by attending after school clubs, could be walking to and from school in the dark.

For those in the South this walking to and from School, however the further north you live the more the children will be waking to school during dark mornings and home again during dark evenings.

Whilst this is fairly illogically if viewed in isolation, however it gets even more stupid if there are younger/older siblings involved and their school is not located near the school for which this assessment is being made for.

Compare this with a 3 mile cycle ride, which would likely take about 20 minutes. This would remove several trips a year when the children are traveling in the dark. It would also give the children more time to be able to focus on their homework as well allowing them to attend more extracurricular activities (after school clubs, swimming lessons, football, Scouts/Guides, etc.) which would result in more rounded children.

To provide scope to undertake these activities it is likely that children would be driven to/from school. Especially given the definition of a safe route is that one which is safe when parents are accompanying their children, which means that those parents could be walking 12 miles a day, resulting in them walking for about 4 hours. Few parents are going to do that over driving, especially those who have other commitments like work and/or other children.

As such I have started a petition to call on the government to look at changing the rules so that any school child which needs to travel more than 2km (about 1.25 miles) should be able to have a safe cycle route for a significant portion of their route to school. This would also mean that the whole route would need to be suitable to push a cycle along whilst not on a cycling section of the route. Rather than the current rules where it's a safe walking route.

This may not sound like a big change, but it could have a big difference in the lives of some school children.

It could even encourage parents who currently drive their children to school to allow them to cycle to school on their own, which could in turn help tackle childhood obesity and reduce the numbers of cars at the school gates and the benefits that would bring.

It would likely also bring wider benefits in that there would likely need to be more safe cycle routes within the vicinity of schools which could mean less cars on the roads as more people cycle. Even if you want to drive you should support better cycle provission as it would mean less traffic congestion for you as people leave their car behind in favour of cycling.

Now for most schools this isn't going to impact many children as most schools are built in urban settings. However there are some cases where the school is located in one location for historic reasons, yet a nearby settlement had grown much bigger.

As an example Robert Mays school is located in Odiham Hampshire, where Odiham has a population of about 4,500. This compares to Hook (circa 2.5 miles to 3.3 miles away) which had a population of 8,000 and is likely to grow to above 10,000 in the next five years.

Based on the number of children in each year at primary age in the Hook schools it is likely that about 50% of Robert Mays children could come from Hook (circa 600, the current pupils have free bus travel due to the route being unsafe to walk, but this could change). That's potentially a lot of children who could be disadvantaged in their childhood due to having to walk long distances to school if there was a change to the walking route which made it safe.

For those who are driven that's a lot of extra traffic or onto the roads causing congestion and parking issues.

However this is just an example and for every child for whom is disadvantaged by this imbalance in government policy it can be difficult and therefore I ask if you would sign the petition to get the government to review their rules.

There's likely to be an impact on local authorities as this is brought in, and so it is entirely likely that it would need to be phased in.

However given the length of time that school travel plans have been brought forward it is likely that the impact could be fairly minimal overall to start with if the percentage cyclable starts fairly low and then increases over time. Especially if there was guidance on how busy roads are for them to be considered as safe, as this could allow a lot of residential roads to be part of the safe cycling route.

Thank you for your time and I hope you sign the petition and pass the message on so others can sign it.
 
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PermitToTravel

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Thanks for the writeup, I can see a lot of effort's gone into it. Your points make a lot of sense - signed and shared :)
 

Robertj21a

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The current rules are that children aged 8 and over are only entitled to free school travel if they live more than 3 miles (about 5km) away. Yet in the planning process for new developments adults are generally expected to walk 2km and cycle 5km.

How is it that 8 year olds are expected to walk over twice as far as adults? In reality it results in children being driven to school.

This petition asks for a change so that the 3 mile still applies but anyone more than 2km (circa 1.25km) away should be able to cycle for a significant portion of the route.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/224790

Feel free to share on your social media.

The following goes into a bit more detail for those that are interested, but feel free to move on to something else at this point.

In the UK we often have a lot of good things which are provided by the government, like the NHS which turned 70 this year. However from time to time there are some things which aren't so well thought out.

For instance, within our planning process there's guidance which states that upto 2km is suitable for most people to walk to get somewhere, with distances upto 5km being the distance where people are expected to cycle. However when it comes to school children having free bus travel the safe walking distance is 2 miles for those aged 8 and under and 3 miles for secondary (which is effectively 5 km).

3 miles would take about an hour walk, which means that some 11 year olds may not be getting home until about 4pm (depending on end of school times). If they were to attend an after school club then this could be getting on for 5pm or later (also depending on how long the club lasts for). Given that the school holidays are mostly focused during the summer months this then means that for much of the school year these children, especially those who want to broaden their experiences by attending after school clubs, could be walking to and from school in the dark.

For those in the South this walking to and from School, however the further north you live the more the children will be waking to school during dark mornings and home again during dark evenings.

Whilst this is fairly illogically if viewed in isolation, however it gets even more stupid if there are younger/older siblings involved and their school is not located near the school for which this assessment is being made for.

Compare this with a 3 mile cycle ride, which would likely take about 20 minutes. This would remove several trips a year when the children are traveling in the dark. It would also give the children more time to be able to focus on their homework as well allowing them to attend more extracurricular activities (after school clubs, swimming lessons, football, Scouts/Guides, etc.) which would result in more rounded children.

To provide scope to undertake these activities it is likely that children would be driven to/from school. Especially given the definition of a safe route is that one which is safe when parents are accompanying their children, which means that those parents could be walking 12 miles a day, resulting in them walking for about 4 hours. Few parents are going to do that over driving, especially those who have other commitments like work and/or other children.

As such I have started a petition to call on the government to look at changing the rules so that any school child which needs to travel more than 2km (about 1.25 miles) should be able to have a safe cycle route for a significant portion of their route to school. This would also mean that the whole route would need to be suitable to push a cycle along whilst not on a cycling section of the route. Rather than the current rules where it's a safe walking route.

This may not sound like a big change, but it could have a big difference in the lives of some school children.

It could even encourage parents who currently drive their children to school to allow them to cycle to school on their own, which could in turn help tackle childhood obesity and reduce the numbers of cars at the school gates and the benefits that would bring.

It would likely also bring wider benefits in that there would likely need to be more safe cycle routes within the vicinity of schools which could mean less cars on the roads as more people cycle. Even if you want to drive you should support better cycle provission as it would mean less traffic congestion for you as people leave their car behind in favour of cycling.

Now for most schools this isn't going to impact many children as most schools are built in urban settings. However there are some cases where the school is located in one location for historic reasons, yet a nearby settlement had grown much bigger.

As an example Robert Mays school is located in Odiham Hampshire, where Odiham has a population of about 4,500. This compares to Hook (circa 2.5 miles to 3.3 miles away) which had a population of 8,000 and is likely to grow to above 10,000 in the next five years.

Based on the number of children in each year at primary age in the Hook schools it is likely that about 50% of Robert Mays children could come from Hook (circa 600, the current pupils have free bus travel due to the route being unsafe to walk, but this could change). That's potentially a lot of children who could be disadvantaged in their childhood due to having to walk long distances to school if there was a change to the walking route which made it safe.

For those who are driven that's a lot of extra traffic or onto the roads causing congestion and parking issues.

However this is just an example and for every child for whom is disadvantaged by this imbalance in government policy it can be difficult and therefore I ask if you would sign the petition to get the government to review their rules.

There's likely to be an impact on local authorities as this is brought in, and so it is entirely likely that it would need to be phased in.

However given the length of time that school travel plans have been brought forward it is likely that the impact could be fairly minimal overall to start with if the percentage cyclable starts fairly low and then increases over time. Especially if there was guidance on how busy roads are for them to be considered as safe, as this could allow a lot of residential roads to be part of the safe cycling route.

Thank you for your time and I hope you sign the petition and pass the message on so others can sign it.

To be quite honest I don't see this going anywhere at all. There's too little difference in time when it only really matters at the longest distance, and in winter months. Most of the kids that pass my house on their trudge home are in their 'gangs' having a good time socialising. I doubt that many would change to cycling (which they could do quite safely already).
 

The Ham

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Thanks for the writeup, I can see a lot of effort's gone into it. Your points make a lot of sense - signed and shared :)

Thanks

To be quite honest I don't see this going anywhere at all. There's too little difference in time when it only really matters at the longest distance, and in winter months. Most of the kids that pass my house on their trudge home are in their 'gangs' having a good time socialising. I doubt that many would change to cycling (which they could do quite safely already).

For those who already walk I agree that that it's unlikely to make much difference, however for those who are currently driven to school it could make their parents allow them to cycle.

Also, by having better cycle facilities, there's a chance that other people would be more included to leave their cars behind.

If you can only walk that an hour each way, or two hours a day. If you can cycle half the distance that's 40 minutes each way, or 1:20 (saving of 40 minutes a day or about 100 hours a year). If you can cycle 75% of the route that's 30 minutes each way (saving an hour a day or 150 hours a year).

For a school of 600 pupils a shift so that an extra 1% cycle would remove up to 6 cars from the school gates.
 

The Ham

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Having done some more research I've come across this transport select committee report:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtran/351/35102.htm

The third of their recommendations states:

We recommend the Government review the distances that children are expected to walk or pay for their own transport—often referred to as 'statutory walking distances'. (Paragraph 25)

The suggested change in the petition would be in keeping with this recommendation. As such it's probably worth also highlighting this with your MP so that they can bring it to the attention of the transport select committee.
 

RT4038

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And how, exactly, is this going to be paid for? We are already losing most of our 'discretionary' public services provided by local authorities so their 'statutory' expenditure on, inter alia, Social Care and Education Transport can be covered. I doubt Hampshire, or anywhere else, have got the money for this.
 

martian boy

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And how, exactly, is this going to be paid for? We are already losing most of our 'discretionary' public services provided by local authorities so their 'statutory' expenditure on, inter alia, Social Care and Education Transport can be covered. I doubt Hampshire, or anywhere else, have got the money for this.

There is a ridiculous situation in the Rhondda Valley, both Fach and Fawr. School buses, or coaches, are provided for school children over two miles away. During this time, there is a very frequent bus service.

120 Blaencwm-Caerphilly, every twenty minutes.
130 Blaenrhondda-Pontypridd, every twenty minutes.
These provide the Rhondda Fawr valley, for most part, a ten minute service.

132 Maerdy-Cardiff, every twelve minutes.
124 Maerdy-Cardiff, every hour.
These provide the Rhondda Fach valley with six buses per hour.

Surely it would be cheaper to pay the normal service provider, and issue the children with a pass (they have to have one to board the school bus/coach) to travel to and from school. In many cases, the local service is not busy at this time.

Let's remember, over half the amount of Council Tax collected, already goes on Education and child services.
 

Bungle965

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It is quite a ridiculous situation at a high school near me, the school has given advance notice of the school bus being withdrawn. The school bus itself is incredibly popular and there has numerous concerns about overcrowding on it resulting in passes being issued so that only kids from the furthest distance away from the school can use it (the bus comes from 7 miles away)
The reasoning behind the school bus being withdrawn is that it crosses over the boarder from West Yorkshire to Greater Manchester and as the school is in Greater Manchester Tfgm will not fund it. Which seems a little strange as they have seemingly funded it for years before.
When the school bus is withdrawn this means that all the school children who currently attend the school will have to catch the single decker public bus which is already full due to it forming a peak time arrival and is routinely full and standing anyway.
Something does not quite add up to me here. But obviously someone has said no somewhere and we shall see the consequences of that.
Sam
 

martian boy

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bungle965....A different situation there. Here in the Rhondda, the catchment area for the three main comprehensives, seems to be no further than three miles.
 

Dentonian

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It is quite a ridiculous situation at a high school near me, the school has given advance notice of the school bus being withdrawn. The school bus itself is incredibly popular and there has numerous concerns about overcrowding on it resulting in passes being issued so that only kids from the furthest distance away from the school can use it (the bus comes from 7 miles away)
The reasoning behind the school bus being withdrawn is that it crosses over the boarder from West Yorkshire to Greater Manchester and as the school is in Greater Manchester Tfgm will not fund it. Which seems a little strange as they have seemingly funded it for years before.
When the school bus is withdrawn this means that all the school children who currently attend the school will have to catch the single decker public bus which is already full due to it forming a peak time arrival and is routinely full and standing anyway.
Something does not quite add up to me here. But obviously someone has said no somewhere and we shall see the consequences of that.
Sam
TFGM are financed by and responsible to the taxpayers of Gtr Manchester so should never have been subsidising children of WY taxpayers. Also is it usual for children to attend state schools in neighbouring counties ? Or is this a result of widespread school closures?
 

Bungle965

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TFGM are financed by and responsible to the taxpayers of Gtr Manchester so should never have been subsidising children of WY taxpayers. Also is it usual for children to attend state schools in neighbouring counties ? Or is this a result of widespread school closures?
It is not at all rare to find that.
Certainly in this case I believe the service started off as just a minubus however it gained popularity over the years resulting in it shifting up to a coach and then a double decker bus.
Sam
 

Dentonian

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It is not at all rare to find that.
Certainly in this case I believe the service started off as just a minubus however it gained popularity over the years resulting in it shifting up to a coach and then a double decker bus.
Sam

More dispersion of public services, I suppose. Nevertheless, the principle still stands and I suspect that TFGM paying is/was an anomoly that somebody has now picked up on as budgets get squeezed tighter. Unless, of course, pupils living in Gtr. Manchester also use it. Either way, I would think it is based on cost per pupil (in a given LA area) expected to use it. Is the school roll shrinking? Are GM parents choosing a different school etc?
 
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Bungle965

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More dispersion of public services, I suppose. Nevertheless, the principle still stands and I suspect that TFGM paying is/was an anomoly that somebody has now picked up on as budgets get squeezed tighter. Unless, of course, pupils living in Gtr. Manchester also use it. Either way, I would think it is based on cost per pupil (in a given LA area) expected to use it. Is the school roll shrinking? Are GM parents choosing a different school etc?
Yes the bus serves stops which are under Tfgm ,which actually caused the issue with the overcrowding with the service as it was the last school bus that would get the pupils in on time.
The school roll has actually gone up however I am not sure about the last question.
Sam
 

The Ham

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And how, exactly, is this going to be paid for? We are already losing most of our 'discretionary' public services provided by local authorities so their 'statutory' expenditure on, inter alia, Social Care and Education Transport can be covered. I doubt Hampshire, or anywhere else, have got the money for this.

How about by the government spending it's money more wisely:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...king-school-despite-12bn-government-campaign/

A £1.2billion Government plan to boost walking and cycling fell flat in its first year as the proportion of children getting to and from school under their own steam actually fell.

Overall, the percentage of pupils walking to school fell by two per cent in 2017 - from 46 per cent to 44 per cent - while those travelling by car or bus went up by one per cent.

Meanwhile, walking rates dropped from 51 per cent to 49 per per cent among children aged five to 10 years old while the percentage of those being taken to primary school by car went up from 41 per cent to 44 per cent.
 
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Here in Nottinghamshire the County Council fund a school bus (route 63) from Ruddington to South Wolds at Keyworth. The current operator uses a double decker and commercially starts at Clifton which is in the City Council area, transporting an extra 28 pupils, this Clifton extension is withdrawn from September due to a new tender. The 28 pupils have been advised to travel into the City and transfer to TrentBartons Keyworth route. I would guess this bus would be already busy with pupils travelling to South Wolds from other parts of the city. There is also the extra cost involved in using 2 operators & 4 buses a day.
 

The Ham

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If the rules were changed I would suggest that they should be something like this:

Free school travel should be provided for those children who live over three miles.

It should also be provided where there is no safe walking route of upto 2km and where there is no safe route which can be cycled for at least xx% of the way for between 2km and 5km. With the walking sections being suitable for a cycle to be pushed.

With a safe cycle route including roads which have a 2 way flow of xxx vehicles per hour or less.


For most schools it is likely that they, especially those with school travel plans already in place, will not require any additional works for the vast majority of their pupils to still meet this change. Especially if the percentage of the route that was cycliable was gradually increased over a 5-10 year period after the initial change.

It should also be noted that for a lot of schools that the numbers of children involved are likely to be fairly small.

However for a minority not being told that their safe walking route is:
- across a farmer's field which is muddy in winter
- along a narrow footway beside a busy road
- along an isolated track
- some other route which is boardering on the unsafe
This change would make a big difference.

I still think that it's crazy that in government policies adults are expected to walk 40% of the distance that children are.
 

The Ham

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One other thought I've had, those children currently have their fourth birthdays (up to and including the 31st August), are under this policy required to walk up to 2 miles each way to attend school.

Generally the numbers in any area are small (especially as most of those would likely be driven), however just because it doesn't cause much of a problem it doesn't mean that the rules shouldn't be changed.
 

WatcherZero

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The discrepancy arises from when most tickets were still distance based. It wasn't that Children under 3 miles away were expected to walk it was that 3 miles was deemed to be reasonable transport costs for the parent to bare while if the council forces them to send their children a longer distance (such as if the local schools are full or they live in a rural location) then the state should assist with those travel costs.

In a world of flat fares no longer governed by the distance between stops you are travelling and where you could be paying the same to go two stops as 30 and a child ticket for a 1 mile journey could cost the same as one for a 5 mile journey I could see why you think they were telling children to walk.
 

RT4038

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The current rules were introduced in the 1944 Education Act, when demographics and school travel were completely different to today. Prior to this most children (80% +) would have attended one school between 5 & 14. Every village would have had a school and children from outlying farms might have had long distances to walk across the fields. Some children will have gone to grammar schools, but would have had to pay their transport fares, which would have effectively prevented bright children from poor rural backgrounds from attending. The '44 Act established 'high school' education from age 11 as the norm, and rural children were bussed and trained to the nearest large town, either with season tickets on the public services operating or by contract coaches. From the 1960s the demographics of villages started to change ('lifestyle' commuters) and the education system (consolidation of smaller schools / high schools built in rural locations) through to parental choice / special needs in mainstream schools nowadays has caused the costs of school transport to balloon under the present distance rules - what will any changes cost?
 

The Ham

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The discrepancy arises from when most tickets were still distance based. It wasn't that Children under 3 miles away were expected to walk it was that 3 miles was deemed to be reasonable transport costs for the parent to bare while if the council forces them to send their children a longer distance (such as if the local schools are full or they live in a rural location) then the state should assist with those travel costs.

In a world of flat fares no longer governed by the distance between stops you are travelling and where you could be paying the same to go two stops as 30 and a child ticket for a 1 mile journey could cost the same as one for a 5 mile journey I could see why you think they were telling children to walk.

That sounds reasonable, other than the rule specifically talks about if there is no safe walking route then they will be provided with free school travel. That would mean that if other travel modes aren't an option (see below) the only option would be for them to walk that far with no legal requirement for the council to do anything else.

Also what about:

Parents who have no car or one car where the three mile route isn't cyclable?

Parents who have children in schools in different locations (for instance primary/secondary) with similar start time.

Parents with children who could previously have asked their older child to use the bus, but due to cuts can no longer do so.

Parents who can't afford the £3,000 per child for a child's bus ticket for the 5 years that they are at secondary school. This could be £1,800 a year for parents if they have three children at secondary school at any given time.

I'm sure that there are other examples which are not unreasonable (i.e. not so rare that they almost never happen).

For each school often these often equate to fairly small numbers of children in each school as often the school is in a larger settlement and the smaller settlements feed into it. However that's not always the case, due to historical settlement sizes, and so the can be cases where a few hundred children need to access a school between 2-3 miles away. There may be a safe route to walk but it certainly isn't a road that would be suitable to cycle, if there's a bus service it wouldn't be able to cope with the numbers of children and there's not a railway line between the two. That leaves walk 2-3 miles or a lot of cars driving up and down the road.

Some will say make them walk they'll be for for it, but the problem is they won't walk (either due to the child not doing so or more likely due to the parents not wanting them to). This results in the child then being more likely to be driven.

Most schools would likely have a reasonable network of cycle routes and/or quiet streets suitable for cycling which would enable most children to be able to access them with no additional costs to the county.

Where it could add costs is in areas where the "safe route" is just about OK for walking or the safe route involves crossing farmer's fields (which may not be that suitable to walk across during the winter, which isn't a consideration).
 

The Ham

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The current rules were introduced in the 1944 Education Act, when demographics and school travel were completely different to today. Prior to this most children (80% +) would have attended one school between 5 & 14. Every village would have had a school and children from outlying farms might have had long distances to walk across the fields. Some children will have gone to grammar schools, but would have had to pay their transport fares, which would have effectively prevented bright children from poor rural backgrounds from attending. The '44 Act established 'high school' education from age 11 as the norm, and rural children were bussed and trained to the nearest large town, either with season tickets on the public services operating or by contract coaches. From the 1960s the demographics of villages started to change ('lifestyle' commuters) and the education system (consolidation of smaller schools / high schools built in rural locations) through to parental choice / special needs in mainstream schools nowadays has caused the costs of school transport to balloon under the present distance rules - what will any changes cost?

For a lot of schools the vast majority of the costs wouldn't change, especially if there's already some cyclable routes.

It could well be that National Government would need to provide some funding, but this could be diverted from other budgets which are there to encourage cycling.

I would suggest that any change be brought in over a long time. For example:
Year 1 -15% cyclable
Year 2 -20% cyclable
Year 3 -25% cyclable
Year 4 -30% cyclable
Year 5 -35% cyclable
Year 6 -38% cyclable
Year 7 -41% cyclable
Year 8 -44% cyclable
Year 9 -47% cyclable
Year 10 -50% cyclable
Year 11 -53% cyclable
Year 12 -56% cyclable
Year 13 -58% cyclable
Year 14 -60% cyclable
Year 15 -62% cyclable
Year 16 -64% cyclable
Year 17 -66% cyclable

Also if the rules said that any road wide enough for two way traffic (otherwise the limit would be 150 vehicles) with a 30mph speed limit and less than (say) 350 vehicles using it an hour would be classed as a safe cycle route, then there would be a lot of roads which could be used as part of the safe cycle route which would cost nothing to include.

Finally the transport select committee have recommended that the distances be reviewed. I would suggest that almost any other option to change the distances would cost more to implement. Unless you can think of one?
 

WatcherZero

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That sounds reasonable, other than the rule specifically talks about if there is no safe walking route then they will be provided with free school travel. That would mean that if other travel modes aren't an option (see below) the only option would be for them to walk that far with no legal requirement for the council to do anything else.

That's relating to obstacles, such as a motorway, river or other physical barrier that either prevents (by only being a vehicular crossing) or forces a long diversion even if the start and end points are physically close together.
E.g. if your school is right on the opposite side of the river only a few hundred meters away but the nearest bridge is two miles further upstream then there isn't a safe walking route and the travel distance is actually 4 miles, or if you are required to cross a dual carriageway but theres no nearby crossing points then its unsafe for children to attempt the journey.

It essentially grants the ability to bend the rules to take account of the reality on the ground.
 

The Ham

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It essentially grants the ability to bend the rules to take account of the reality on the ground.

The problem is County Councils are looking to remove all bent rules so that they can save money.

For instance national guidance states that it's good practice to not remove free bus travel to a child whilst they are attending a school once it's been given at the start of their time there, yet there's at least one council who is proposing to remove it from all children (those already at school and new starters) from all their schools where they are reviewing safe walk routes because it will save them more money. Given that it is only "good practice" it's not a legal requirement and so they will at least propose it.
 

RT4038

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The problem is County Councils are looking to remove all bent rules so that they can save money.

For instance national guidance states that it's good practice to not remove free bus travel to a child whilst they are attending a school once it's been given at the start of their time there, yet there's at least one council who is proposing to remove it from all children (those already at school and new starters) from all their schools where they are reviewing safe walk routes because it will save them more money. Given that it is only "good practice" it's not a legal requirement and so they will at least propose it.

How do you know 'For a lot of schools the vast majority of the costs wouldn't change' ?
Would your proposed change be good value for taxpayers? I doubt it.
When the rules were introduced, the vast majority of people living in rural areas (i.e. outside towns) did so because they were employed or had connection with the immediate rural area. (farm workers and those working in farm trades in villages). Giving free travel to their children to and from the nearest secondary education centre was reasonable and fair then, as fares would have been an enormous burden to this demographic.
Since the early 60s this has completely changed - most people now living in rural areas are 'lifestyle' commuters, with no connection with rural life at all, and mostly fairly affluent. They have made a conscious decision to live in the country, to get away from the oiks in the towns. Should these people get free travel for their children, subsidised by the town dwellers. I think not.
The problem is County Councils having bent the rules in the first place- it was easy to spend taxpayers money on non-statutory free transport when it's not your money. Now that there is a financial squeeze, it is only right that these 'perks' are reviewed. Town folk are losing all their non-statutory services, so why shouldn't rural people also?
Your plan is gerrymandering the rules to benefit 'lifestyle' rural folk, as it is them who stand to gain, whilst town folk will almost always have closer schools and safe cycling routes. If you don't want to pay the fares, come and live in Basingstoke or Aldershot, rather than idyllic Fleet!
 
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The Ham

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How do you know 'For a lot of schools the vast majority of the costs wouldn't change' ?
Would your proposed change be good value for taxpayers? I doubt it.
When the rules were introduced, the vast majority of people living in rural areas (i.e. outside towns) did so because they were employed or had connection with the immediate rural area. (farm workers and those working in farm trades in villages). Giving free travel to their children to and from the nearest secondary education centre was reasonable and fair then, as fares would have been an enormous burden to this demographic.
Since the early 60s this has completely changed - most people now living in rural areas are 'lifestyle' commuters, with no connection with rural life at all, and mostly fairly affluent. They have made a conscious decision to live in the country, to get away from the oiks in the towns. Should these people get free travel for their children, subsidised by the town dwellers. I think not.
The problem is County Councils having bent the rules in the first place- it was easy to spend taxpayers money on non-statutory free transport when it's not your money. Now that there is a financial squeeze, it is only right that these 'perks' are reviewed. Town folk are losing all their non-statutory services, so why shouldn't rural people also?
Your plan is gerrymandering the rules to benefit 'lifestyle' rural folk, as it is them who stand to gain, whilst town folk will almost always have closer schools and safe cycling routes. If you don't want to pay the fares, come and live in Basingstoke or Aldershot, rather than idyllic Fleet!

MP's in the form of the transport select committee have said that the distances need reviewing. By keeping the distances the same but making it cycling that would be less costly than changing the walking distance to almost anything else.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmtran/351/35109.htm

All the petition is asking for is that the MP's keep their word in reviewing the distances but by giving them an option which wouldn't be too costly. Especially if it was brought in over a period of time.

How does living in Fleet (with 2 secondary schools) make much difference than living in Farnborough, Basingstoke, Aldershot or any of the other urban areas around Fleet? There's going to be areas in all of those places where they have walk up to 2 or 3 mile walk depending on age.
 

The Ham

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Also currently Rushmoor in their local plan have been taking about not being able to provide the correct number of houses which would then likely mean more houses in Hart. If you look at the Hart local plan very few of the proposed houses are in places where there are secondary schools.

As such there's going to be little choice but to live away from the school's, so the suggestion to live in urban areas rather than rural areas kind of falls apart.
 

RT4038

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Also currently Rushmoor in their local plan have been taking about not being able to provide the correct number of houses which would then likely mean more houses in Hart. If you look at the Hart local plan very few of the proposed houses are in places where there are secondary schools.

As such there's going to be little choice but to live away from the school's, so the suggestion to live in urban areas rather than rural areas kind of falls apart.

At a time when public services are being cut and cut, I do not think it is good to be increasing statutory free school transport costs, esp. as it is likely to be benefiting the better off. Review the whole system by all means [and your suggestion is part of that], make it more equitable to society as a whole, and keep within the current costs. (or even better, reduce them).
 

The Ham

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At a time when public services are being cut and cut, I do not think it is good to be increasing statutory free school transport costs, esp. as it is likely to be benefiting the better off. Review the whole system by all means [and your suggestion is part of that], make it more equitable to society as a whole, and keep within the current costs. (or even better, reduce them).

So use the money that government is spending better:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...king-school-despite-12bn-government-campaign/

£1.2 billion would get you a lot of cycle routes. Which if focused on areas where there's not safe walking routes could enable the ongoing costs to be reduced.

I'm accepting that costs would have to be reduced, which is why I've suggested quite a long introduction period.

Also you are assuming that it only benefits one area and that everyone there is wealthy. Which is not the case (on either count)
 

neilmc

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At a time when public services are being cut and cut, I do not think it is good to be increasing statutory free school transport costs, esp. as it is likely to be benefiting the better off. Review the whole system by all means [and your suggestion is part of that], make it more equitable to society as a whole, and keep within the current costs. (or even better, reduce them).

I live in a rural area and whilst middle-aged incomers like me may be relatively wealthy I assure you the majority of local families with children are not. They have to try and balance the benefits of bringing children up in a village where everyone knows one another and the huge drawbacks of no public transport and general lack of amenities particularly for younger people. If they lose school bus services, which largely feed into the secondary schools in towns, families may throw in the towel and move to an urban area and the surviving local primary schools will close and the villages become retirement properties for the elderly.
 

The Ham

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I live in a rural area and whilst middle-aged incomers like me may be relatively wealthy I assure you the majority of local families with children are not. They have to try and balance the benefits of bringing children up in a village where everyone knows one another and the huge drawbacks of no public transport and general lack of amenities particularly for younger people. If they lose school bus services, which largely feed into the secondary schools in towns, families may throw in the towel and move to an urban area and the surviving local primary schools will close and the villages become retirement properties for the elderly.

I would also suggest that for those that do stay they would take to driving their children.

Which although it's what the council's paying for the bus provision would like, they may not like the money that they would have to spend on solving the traffic congestion problems that it could cause.

One bus with 40 children on board could easily become 20 cars with one to three children in. Which maybe OK if there's just one bus, but 5 buses (200 children) would be 100 cars (a lot of those could quite probably both ways in the morning peak).

As such school bus provision could impact a lot of people in their ability to get around.
 
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