At least it will be an easy change to step off a train wait 2.5 mins and get on the next one at the same platform
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Crossrail timetable
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At least it will be an easy change to step off a train wait 2.5 mins and get on the next one at the same platform
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samuelmorris
Established Member
It will be, but boarding an already busy service (and standing aside for the masses to exit the train) would certainly diminish some of the value of the 'direct' service.
Only if it's peak (off-peak, trains are every 3 minutes) and the train following you is a Heathrow one
.Still going to happen quite a bit, even with direct Shenfield-Heathrow services.
Could some of the 315s be kept for LO as they haven't ordered enough 710 units for the Lea Valley Lines?
greatkingrat
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Every 15 minutes was fine when Crossrail only served T4, but now there are the T5 trains to fit in as well. Would it be better to have an every 10 minute services at T23 (resulting in a 10/20 minute headway at T4)? Or if you keep an even 4tph from T4 then you have an uneven service from T23.
Either this diagram has errors on it, or the Crossrail website's Journey Planner (which has been updated comparatively recently) has errors on it.
Example:
- West Drayton to Heathrow Terminal 5: Diagram implies you'd need to change twice (at H&H and then Heathrow Central), or go to Ealing Broadway to change. Crossrail website says West Drayton to Heathrow Terminal 5 is 16 minutes with a change at Hayes.
- Reading to Stratford. Diagram implies there are 4tph of direct services. Crossrail websites says you'll have to change at Whitechapel.
Anyone know which is actually right?
You can't have a 10-20-10-20 service at T4 (ie an even 6tph, minus two trains): it's physically impossible on the single track. A 12-18-12-18 pattern might be possible, which would mean all to Abbey Wood.
I'd go with the industry source over the hobbyist one here.
According to the updated journey finder, the following are explicitly a change (if it's not there, then it goes to all logical stops directly):
- Acton ML, Hanwell and West Ealing to Burnham, Heathrow T5, Iver, Langley, Maidenhead, Reading, Slough, Taplow, Twyford and West Drayton
- Burnham, Langley, Maidenhead, Slough and West Drayton to Acton ML, Hanwell and West Ealing
- Heathrow T5, Iver, Taplow and Twyford to Acton ML, Hanwell, West Ealing and the Shenfield branch
- Reading to Hanwell, West Ealing and the Shenfield branch (surely Acton ML ought to be too?)
- the Shenfield branch to Heathrow T5, Iver, Reading, Taplow and Twyford
Heathrow T5 - Heathrow Central - Hayes & Harlington - Southall - Ealing Broadway - Paddington (2tph AW)
Maidenhead - Burnham - Slough - Langley - West Drayton - H&H - Southall (peak only) - Ealing B - Paddington (2tph AW peak, 2tph Shenfield off-peak)
Reading - Twyford - Maidenhead - Taplow - Slough - Langley - Iver - West Drayton - Southall - Ealing B - Padington (2tph AW)
Reading - Twyford - Maidenhead - Taplow - Burnham - Slough - Iver - West Drayton - H&H - Ealing B - Paddington (2tph AW peak, 0tph off-peak)
Heathrow T4 - Heathrow Central - H&H - Southall - Hanwell - West Ealing - Ealing B - Acton ML - Paddington (4tph AW peak, 2tph AW+2tph Shenfield off-peak)
Below is the diagram from the July 2017 London Reconnections article: The final result: Crossrail heads to Terminal 5
The trains from GWML and GEML branches share the same core section but are to run as separate lines (to avoid disruption spreading). I'd go with their presentation as at least 1 of the LR contributors works for TfL/Crossrail project.
Just take the 350 bus from West Drayton railway station direct to T5 (approx. 17 minutes).
I'd seen this one and I agree it seems like a far more sensible plan, but unfortunately doesn't correspond with the latest Crossrail website's journey planner either. Maidenhead to Stratford doesn't bring up a Whitechapel interchange, for example, if they were going with this solution, it would.
samuelmorris
Established Member
I wonder if the precise timings of the system are waiting the results of real world passenger service in the core section this winter before they work out if the numbers add up. A bit frustrating, but rather that than the Thameslink solution of detailing a timetable then not delivering it. I'd be fine with a reduced frequency on the more 'difficult' through services, e.g. if only 1tph from the northeast branch went through to Reading or something (providing it wasn't an easy target for cancellations) but I would really rather not see certain point to point journeys require a change if at all possible.
Interesting.
Had a look at the journey time calculator, the GWML (and Heathrow branch) stations with a direct train to Shenfield:
Maidenhead
Slough
Langley
West Drayton
Hayes & Harlington
Southall
Hanwell
West Ealing
Ealing Broadway
Acton Main Line
-------------------------
Heathrow T4
Heathrow Central
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The only problem is that if they wait for evidence of "real world passenger service" they'll be too late. You can discount the first few weeks of operation because it will be badly skewed by people riding the line just to see / experience it plus Christmas shopping then Christmas / New Year holidays and then the risk of winter weather screwing things up. TfL tend to like to have a lot of data, at least 1 year's worth, before forming any real view about anything. That simply doesn't work in the context of submitting timetables for the through service to the Shenfield line (must have been done already or be imminent) and then a few months later the full through service. TfL, MTR and NR have been iterating the full timetable for years - at some point they have to finalise it so everything else can be prepared for. All this assumes the rail industry doesn't become totally averse to changing train timetables. If that happens Crossrail will never complete.
I think it will take a long time, 1-3 years, for passenger journey patterns to stabilise in a way that gives a genuine operational picture not only for Crossrail but also the tube network and other NR services. The London rail network itself will keep changing as extensions / station capacity works come to fruition in the early 2020s. This will keep having impacts on Crossrail. I also think the "court of public opinion" will soon make itself felt as to the service / stopping patterns. I understand the desire to keep service groupings separate and the need to link Canary Wharf and Heathrow directly but I think people will still demand through services, without changing, between all branches (so Shenfield / AW to both Heathrow / Reading and vv). (Obviously people from west of Hayes wanting Heathrow and people wanting to travel between the eastern branches will have to change at Hayes / Whitechapel as appropriate. Just before the pedants pile in and say the track layout doesn't allow for certain through services). It will be interesting to see how long TfL and MTR Crossrail hold out in the face of public comment (and undoubted social media moaning competition).
This is actually pretty revealing.
We know Reading will get 2tph off-peak and 4tph peak.
Since interchange is shown for Shenfield, we could assume all of these must go to Abbey Wood.
Since Maidenhead is interchange-free for Shenfield, the additional 2tph starting there must go to Shenfield.
This creates a problem though as Iver and Taplow are shown as needing interchange for Shenfield, that would mean their frequency is only 2tph (as if any of the Reading 4tph stopped there, they'd have no interchange).
My educated guess is the Journey Calculator is showing the off-peak situation, and peak trains will supplement it. So this means Reading's 2tph all day does to Abbey Wood, Maidenhead's all day 2tph goes to Shenfield, the peak 2tph service from Reading stops at Iver and Taplow but its Eastern destination is, as yet, unknown.
Heathrow doesn't get extra peak trains, just 6tph consistently all day, so all Heathrow T4's 4tph must be split between Shenfield and Abbey Wood as neither is shown requiring interchange. Heathrow T5 trains all go to Abbey Wood.
Further findings from the Journey Calculator:
- trains to all eastern and western destinations stop at Ealing Broadway, Hayes and Harlington and Southall.
- trains to Heathrow T4 are the only ones stopping at West Ealing and Acton Main Line and Hanwell. All have interchange-free travel to both Eastern destinations. I think we could reasonably assume this is all the same 4tph and Reading/Maidenhead services won't stop at any of these stations.
- Slough is listed as having four trains per hour (not 'up to four'). This indicates the peak time Reading trains don't stop here, interestingly.
- West Drayton is listed as having 'up to six' trains per hour. This indicates the peak time Reading trains do stop here.
- Hayes and Harlington is listed as having 'up to ten' trains per hour. This indicates the peak time Reading trains do stop here, but the full service would be 12, not 10. If this anomaly is correct it can only mean 2tph of the Heathrow Terminal 4 services do not stop at H&H.
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pacenotes
Member
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- 104
Does anyone think they will start some services early using the high line station in December or May next year?
They could just extend the Hayes trains to T5, It wouldn't use another path or use a platform at Paddington.
They could just extend the Hayes trains to T5, It wouldn't use another path or use a platform at Paddington.
cactustwirly
Established Member
That was the plan, but the 345 ECTS is incompatible with the ATP in the Heathrow tunnels, so they can't be used until it's sorted.
With 12 GWR 387s going to Ilford for the Heathrow Express modifications, Reading based Turbos (mainly 165s) will cover for the departing 387s. There is though a slim chance that the DFT and MTR could agree to run 345s to Reading before December 2019 in place of some GWR Turbos, possibly if the GWR 769s fail to show up.
cactustwirly
Established Member
It's quite complex, as none of the GWR crew will sign 345s, and the diagrams would have to be completely rewritten.
However it would be a political bombshell, given the huge reduction of seating capacity!
The Reading/Maidenhead - Paddington GWR stoppers? MTR drivers are currently doing 345 training runs to Reading/Maidenhead. The bombshell on seating capacity (and everything else) is going to go off in December 2019 come what may...
It's listed as 4tph off-peak/6tph peak elsewhere on the site (the service pattern off this page). No Elizabeth line train will skip it.
There's some logical leaps there. Yes, an 8tph off-peak, 10tph peak suggests that the peak Readings will stop there. However, it is not essential that they do, as other services can add calls there. And certainly there's Maidenheads and Terminal 5 services that can skip it - it doesn't have to be T4 ones.
It accurately shows the peak service, just not the off-peak. Nor calling patterns at certain stations as they were still TBD then.
Geoff's gets the service levels correct, but doesn't account for this new data, nor does it pay any attention to the London Reconnections article from last year, instead digging up older diagrams to base things off.
My late-night Friday musings are still, despite two days to mull them over, my late-night Sunday musings:
Heathrow T5 - Heathrow Central - Hayes & Harlington - Southall - Ealing Broadway - Paddington (2tph AW)
Maidenhead - Burnham - Slough - Langley - West Drayton - H&H - Southall (peak only) - Ealing B - Paddington (2tph AW peak, 2tph Shenfield off-peak)
Reading - Twyford - Maidenhead - Taplow - Slough - Langley - Iver - West Drayton - Southall - Ealing B - Padington (2tph AW)
Reading - Twyford - Maidenhead - Taplow - Burnham - Slough - Iver - West Drayton - H&H - Ealing B - Paddington (2tph AW peak, 0tph off-peak)
Heathrow T4 - Heathrow Central - H&H - Southall - Hanwell - West Ealing - Ealing B - Acton ML - Paddington (4tph AW peak, 2tph AW+2tph Shenfield off-peak)
The London Reconnections diagram is out of date.
Beware that the plan to transition from peak to off peak in the morning and off peak to peak in the afternoon involved sending a few Shenfield services to T4, hence in reality there are 3 service levels to look at:
Peak
Shoulder Peak to middle of the day off peak and v/v
Off Peak
Hence be very careful in using logic from the Journey planner!!!
Eastern branch will have uneven headways but then again a comparatively high frequency.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I like the stopping pattern of the 'extra' trains to Reading, I just wish the 345s had a more suitable interior.
MarlowDonkey
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Won't there still be some GWR semi fasts heading for Didcot and Newbury?
On the GW reliefs there will be off peak semi-fasts to Didcot, not sure about Newbury.
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I personally don't mind the interior layout (although I won't use them much in the peaks). It's the rock hard seat pads that disappoint me the most, they might as well have fitted glass reinforced plastic seats.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I think they need an interior more like the Thameslink 700s, ie less longitudinal seats, and more airline style seats.
When TfL took on the project they were only ever going to specify what we have now, compared with British Rail's CrossRail class 341 mock up which had NSE's usual suburban spec. Ultimately it's a dual-purpose line; hauling many, many thousands of commuters in and out of London in the peaks, with the core being a jam-packed high frequency metro line from day 1.
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Neat diagram - if you do find the source please do share!
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