Northern Class 323 Diagrams

Starmill · 21 May 2018

Hello all

I'm aware there are significant changes to Northern EMU diagrams in the North West following yesterday's timetable change.

Can anyone offer a heads up, either in summary or in detail, as to what the 323's new work will broadly consist of? I spotted one working to Hazel Grove on Sunday. Will any 323s work the long long round circuit that includes the Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Airport services?

There was talking at one time that they might work Blackpool North services, but this doesn't seem clear at this time.

Come tomorrow it may all become fairly obvious, but I'm grateful for any direction.

Thanks

Starmill

RailUK Forums

Loop & Link · 21 May 2018

No major changes apart from the Liverpool work.

Any diagrams with Liverpool in, see the following circuit.

Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe - Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay - Liverpool - Crewe - Manchester Piccadilly - Hazel Grove - Manchester Piccadilly.

11:00/13:00/14:00 Liverpool - Warrington and return and 13:28/15:28/16:28 Liverpool - Crewe will be 323’s.

No Blackpool North work at present and no Sunday Liverpool 323 work.

geoffk · 21 May 2018

Loop & Link said:
No major changes apart from the Liverpool work.

Any diagrams with Liverpool in, see the following circuit.

Manchester Piccadilly - Crewe - Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay - Liverpool - Crewe - Manchester Piccadilly - Hazel Grove - Manchester Piccadilly.

11:00/13:00/14:00 Liverpool - Warrington and return and 13:28/15:28/16:28 Liverpool - Crewe will be 323’s.

No Blackpool North work at present and no Sunday Liverpool 323 work.

I assume the above diagram is a mixture of 319s and 323s, otherwise 323s will have to be taken off other duties as the diagram is all additional apart from the Manchester - Crewe part. Alderley Edge is now a diesel service from Wigan. 319s are no good for Stoke as they are too slow, while some platforms on the Glossop line are too short.

Loop & Link · 21 May 2018

As mentioned, the individual services I mentioned are 323’s, going on to work to Crewe/Hazel Grove the rest 319’s.

Starmill · 30 Jul 2018

Good news and thanks.

Does anyone know if these are running today? I'm currently away from Manchester. Any confirmed report of a 323 at Liverpool Lime Street or Warrington Bank Quay?

Cheers

Loop & Link · 30 Jul 2018

No 323’s to Liverpool until at least September.

jizzer · 30 Jul 2018

They are still awaiting route clearance to go via chat moss. Don't know if this is Network Rail or Northerns fault, after all they have known for at least 8 months that these units would be going this way.

chefchenko · 30 Jul 2018

323s only just fit in the bay at stoke-on-trent, i suppose if anything else takes over they could terminate on 1 then run into a loop south of s-o-t then return p2?

Crossover · 31 Jul 2018

chefchenko said:
323s only just fit in the bay at stoke-on-trent, i suppose if anything else takes over they could terminate on 1 then run into a loop south of s-o-t then return p2?

I think both through platforms are bi-directional. I’m unsure what Sidings are wired at Stoke to accommodate an electric to get it out of the way of through services

chefchenko · 31 Jul 2018

Crossover said:
I think both through platforms are bi-directional. I’m unsure what Sidings are wired at Stoke to accommodate an electric to get it out of the way of through services

I’m not sure either , or crossovers in situ

jizzer · 31 Jul 2018

Viaduct siding is wired at the South end of stoke. The up goods and through siding are also wired at the north end of stoke if shunts are required. The issue at the moment is the xcountry service is only a couple of mins behind the stopper by the time the stopper arrives in the bay. 319s even though cleared for stoke will probably only go in extreme circumstances.

nw-sparks · 1 Aug 2018

Loop & Link said:
No 323’s to Liverpool until at least September.

I presume you meant "in passenger service". Here's one yesterday, on driver training.

(5Z91 11:34 Preston to Allerton Diesel Multiple Unit Depot)

LNW-GW Joint · 1 Aug 2018

Loop & Link said:
No 323’s to Liverpool until at least September.

There was one at Lime St yesterday, marked "Special".
Presumably on crew training?

Greybeard33 · 4 Aug 2018

Loop & Link said:
No 323’s to Liverpool until at least September.

jizzer said:
They are still awaiting route clearance to go via chat moss. Don't know if this is Network Rail or Northerns fault, after all they have known for at least 8 months that these units would be going this way.

mcnw35282 said:
I apologise if this has been mentioned somewhere else, but I’m on a class 323! 12:24 SHJ to LIV! Nice comfortable ride...although the sounds from the traction motors will take a bit of getting used to! There’s a thud before the motors engage...kinda like the noise the TARDIS makes before it starts to disappear!

Bletchleyite said:
I see the Northern random unit generator is still in full force and has now expanded its capabilities to EMUs...

Loop & Link said:
Or you mean working it’s booked diagram LT107 which includes a visit to Liverpool.

From RTT this appears to be a typically convoluted Northern diagram. ECS Longsight to Macclesfield, then in service Macc to Piccadilly, Picc to Crewe via Stockport, Crewe to Lime Street via Airport, Lime Street to Warrington Bank Quay, WBQ back to Lime Street, including the aforementioned call at St Helens Junction, etc, etc...

So it seems 323s have now got route clearance for the Chat Moss line.

jizzer · 4 Aug 2018

Not from Piccadilly they haven't. I beleive its a certain platform that needs something doing to it, cant recall which station. I've heard they hope to have RA in about 3 weeks time. It's a 319 on the diagram from Macclesfield because it ends up on the Crewe Liverpool circuit. At present all Crewe to Liverpool via Piccadilly are 319s but maybe in 3 weeks time it will be a mixture of both traction.

317 forever · 4 Aug 2018

I get a view of plenty of trains into Stockport from my office window. I notice more 319s than 323s these days.

nicolaboo · 5 Aug 2018

Saturday 28 July.
323s known headings
0832 to Picc 239
1030 to Picc 239
1140 to Picc 231
1153* to Hadfield 233
1240 to Picc 235
1257 to Stoke 231
1337 to Hazel Grove 237
1406 to Picc 236
1414 to Crewe 228
1557 to Stoke 231
1806 to Picc 236
2032 to Picc 228
* approx

Total 323 sightings 20
Total 319 sightings 18

323235 · 5 Aug 2018

jizzer said:
Not from Piccadilly they haven't. I beleive its a certain platform that needs something doing to it, cant recall which station. I've heard they hope to have RA in about 3 weeks time. It's a 319 on the diagram from Macclesfield because it ends up on the Crewe Liverpool circuit. At present all Crewe to Liverpool via Piccadilly are 319s but maybe in 3 weeks time it will be a mixture of both traction.

Forgive me if i'm getting confused but someone above has just said they had one in passenger service from St Helens Junction to Liverpool Lime St?

Greybeard33 · 6 Aug 2018

323235 said:
Forgive me if i'm getting confused but someone above has just said they had one in passenger service from St Helens Junction to Liverpool Lime St?

To clarify my previous post:
mcnw35282 reported on the other 323 thread, Rumours of all 323s to now go to Northern, that s/he had ridden on a 323 from St Helens Junction to Liverpool at 1224 on Saturday 04 August. 507 001 then posted that s/he had sighted a 323 operating this same service through Huyton.

This working was 2F37, the 1212 Warrington Bank Quay to Lime Street, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24728/2018/08/04/advanced. From the two independent reports, there can be little doubt that it was in fact operated by a 323.

RTT indicates that this service terminated in Platform 5 at Lime Street, and that the next departure from this platform was 2A99, the 1328 Lime Street to Crewe via the Chat Moss line, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22109/2018/08/04/advanced.

2F37 was the return working of 2F32, the 1200 Lime Street to Warrington, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24719/2018/08/04/advanced. So this must also have been worked by the 323.

RTT indicates that 2F32 departed from Platform 2 at Lime Street. The previous arrival at this platform was 2F31, the 0916 Crewe to Lime Street via the Chat Moss line, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24716/2018/08/04/advanced.

The above suggests, but does not confirm, that the two Crewe services, 2F31 and 2A99, were also worked by the 323. That is why I assumed that 323s had been cleared for the Chat Moss line. However, jizzer then stated that this was not the case.

It is possible that there were shunt moves at Lime Street that did not appear on RTT, or that the platform numbers were recorded incorrectly. So the two Crewe services could have been worked by a 319, but, for whatever reason, the 323 was substituted on the Warrington workings of the diagram. Loop and Link stated that the 323 was working "its booked diagram LT107", but I do not know which services that includes.

Philip · 6 Aug 2018

Will there be enough 331s to cover all Liverpool-Crewe diagrams or is it likely to be a mix of 323s and 331s?

Loop & Link · 6 Aug 2018

Greybeard33 said:
To clarify my previous post:
mcnw35282 reported on the other 323 thread, Rumours of all 323s to now go to Northern, that s/he had ridden on a 323 from St Helens Junction to Liverpool at 1224 on Saturday 04 August. 507 001 then posted that s/he had sighted a 323 operating this same service through Huyton.

This working was 2F37, the 1212 Warrington Bank Quay to Lime Street, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24728/2018/08/04/advanced. From the two independent reports, there can be little doubt that it was in fact operated by a 323.

RTT indicates that this service terminated in Platform 5 at Lime Street, and that the next departure from this platform was 2A99, the 1328 Lime Street to Crewe via the Chat Moss line, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y22109/2018/08/04/advanced.

2F37 was the return working of 2F32, the 1200 Lime Street to Warrington, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24719/2018/08/04/advanced. So this must also have been worked by the 323.

RTT indicates that 2F32 departed from Platform 2 at Lime Street. The previous arrival at this platform was 2F31, the 0916 Crewe to Lime Street via the Chat Moss line, http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y24716/2018/08/04/advanced.

The above suggests, but does not confirm, that the two Crewe services, 2F31 and 2A99, were also worked by the 323. That is why I assumed that 323s had been cleared for the Chat Moss line. However, jizzer then stated that this was not the case.

It is possible that there were shunt moves at Lime Street that did not appear on RTT, or that the platform numbers were recorded incorrectly. So the two Crewe services could have been worked by a 319, but, for whatever reason, the 323 was substituted on the Warrington workings of the diagram. Loop and Link stated that the 323 was working "its booked diagram LT107", but I do not know which services that includes.

The 323 worked 09:16 Crewe-Liverpool, 11:00 Liverpool-Warrington BQ, 12:12 Warrington BQ-Liverpool and 13:28 Liverpool-Crewe etc, all booked for a 323 anyway on a Saturday.

However, with the driver training issues and route clearance issues, the latter being now being solved obviously, it must have been very last minute, as I was under the impression, there was still a while to go before 323’s would be out and about on Chat Moss.

The other 2 booked 323 diagrams into Lime Street were still 319’s.

And there won’t be any 323’s Monday-Friday, as the Crewe services are interworked with Lime St-Wigan services at the moment during the altered timetable until September, Wigan/Blackpool don’t sign 323’s.

thealexweb · 6 Aug 2018

Philip said:
Will there be enough 331s to cover all Liverpool-Crewe diagrams or is it likely to be a mix of 323s and 331s?

As I understand it the Liverpool - Crewe runs will be exclusively Class 319s in the future, presuming Northern doesn’t retain the Class 323s.

js1000 · 6 Aug 2018

thealexweb said:
As I understand it the Liverpool - Crewe runs will be exclusively Class 319s in the future, presuming Northern doesn’t retain the Class 323s.

I believe it but it doesn't makes a great deal of sense to me from an operational point of view. If there's one EMU you don't want on the congested Styal Line to Man Airport it's the 319s due to their slower acceleration in comparison with the 323s and new 331s. The service at the moment rarely runs on time.

scrapy · 6 Aug 2018

Man Vic and Wigan crews also operate Crewe to Lime St (between Oxford Rd and Lime St) but don't sign 323s. By putting a 323 on this route instead of a 319 you limit flexibility as only Lime St drivers and guards can work it in both directions so 323s can only be used on certain diagrams.

Greybeard33 · 6 Aug 2018

scrapy said:
Man Vic and Wigan crews also operate Crewe to Lime St (between Oxford Rd and Lime St) but don't sign 323s. By putting a 323 on this route instead of a 319 you limit flexibility as only Lime St drivers and guards can work it in both directions so 323s can only be used on certain diagrams.

Also many of the diagrams also include Crewe to Piccadilly via Stockport workings, interworked at Crewe with the Liverpools, so requiring 319s to be used on this route too. Crew changes at Oxford Road are a reliability risk, because late arrival of the relief crew causes delays to following services.

I believe the 331s are to be used mainly on the Blackpool to Airport, Blackpool to Macclesfield, Piccadilly to Stoke and Piccadilly to Glossop/Hadfield services (the last because 319s would be unable to keep to the current 323 timetable, with its short turnrounds).

Loop & Link · 6 Aug 2018

scrapy said:
Man Vic and Wigan crews also operate Crewe to Lime St (between Oxford Rd and Lime St) but don't sign 323s. By putting a 323 on this route instead of a 319 you limit flexibility as only Lime St drivers and guards can work it in both directions so 323s can only be used on certain diagrams.

Good job the majority of Lime Street-Crewe services are Lime Street traincrew then (as far as Oxford Road) obviously. Think Wigan only do 1 turn on those. And obviously all the 323 workings are Lime Street traincrew, and thankfully only Lime Street sign Lime St-Warrington BQ, where the 323’s also go.

chefchenko · 7 Aug 2018

So does anyone know what manc-stoke are getting then ?

HUY2ROB · 21 Aug 2018

Today at Huyton ,the 16-42 to Manchester Piccadilly was 323 238.Real Time Trains says it went to Crewe but it was announced as Piccadilly. It was two minutes late and the following train to Blackpool was cancelled (crew shortage).

Starmill · 21 Aug 2018

Interesting!

prod_pep · 21 Aug 2018

323238 had earlier formed the 1512 Warrington B.Q. - Liverpool Lime Street today, while the 1200 Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington B.Q. was also a 323.

Northern Class 323 Diagrams

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