DarloRich
Veteran Member
Thanks - that seems a poor show!
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Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?
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Thanks - that seems a poor show!
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Roy Badami
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Interesting - I'd never noticed that step 3 wasn't carried out by UK Border Force personel (or their predecessors) - I must pay more attention next time.
Although there are e-gates at step 3 now, too - which I would presume must be operated by UK Border Force.
Roy Badami
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Hmm, I was sure there were, but now you have me doubting myself. So at St Pancras it's a (manual) check by Eurostar staff followed by French e-gates? I guess I'm confusing it with Gare du Nord where you get the the two e-gates in succession.
Yes that’s right for St. Pancras.
At Gare du Nord it goes ticket scan, French exit checks (manual), UK entry checks (manual or e-gates), security. Or at least it did last time I used it, which was back in February. (I came back from Gare du Midi on Monday.)
At Gare du Nord it goes ticket scan, French exit checks (manual), UK entry checks (manual or e-gates), security. Or at least it did last time I used it, which was back in February. (I came back from Gare du Midi on Monday.)
Thanks, yes, that's relatively new then. Kind of the transporters to do the job for them. I have't taken my car across for decades. Who does it at the Eurotunnel and ports, does anyone know?. I'm talking about outward of course. I only dimly remember French immigration checking at the Eurotunnel. Then you just drove out at Coquelles, same as you just walk out from E* at Gare du Nord.
It could be worse - the first timetable drafted for the Channel Tunnel in 1973 had nine trains a day each way. Of those nine, one was a sleeping-car train, and four were first-class only TEE (think Pullman) services that wouldn't run at weekends.
https://www.europebyrail.eu/40-years-on-the-first-plans-for-Eurostar
That said, it's a shame that the potential is restricted by pretending Eurostar is an extremely low-flying airliner. Whilst you wouldn't expect to wake up one morning and say 'I fancy popping to Paris today', you might well wish on Friday afternoon to go to the Louvre on Saturday, in the same way one might decide to go to York or Bournemouth for the day. The travel times are about the same for all three, if you live in London. Similarly, Regional Eurostar would have put what we're now calling the Northern Powerhouse as close to Paris as Glasgow and Edinburgh are to London without needing HS2. That would be useful and probably well used, if it were possible.
https://www.europebyrail.eu/40-years-on-the-first-plans-for-Eurostar
That said, it's a shame that the potential is restricted by pretending Eurostar is an extremely low-flying airliner. Whilst you wouldn't expect to wake up one morning and say 'I fancy popping to Paris today', you might well wish on Friday afternoon to go to the Louvre on Saturday, in the same way one might decide to go to York or Bournemouth for the day. The travel times are about the same for all three, if you live in London. Similarly, Regional Eurostar would have put what we're now calling the Northern Powerhouse as close to Paris as Glasgow and Edinburgh are to London without needing HS2. That would be useful and probably well used, if it were possible.
Pure fantasy but as a keen cyclist it would be great to have a dedicated cycle lane alongside the service tunnel via the entrance at Samphire Hoe. Chris Froome cycled through it once albeit as a one-off arrangement. Granted there'd have to be customs and passport checks somewhere but it would surely make for the cheapest route to mainland Europe 
.
.I do not understand this "Eurostar is a monopoly, it needs competition" talk. Between London and Paris/Brussels/Amsterdam there are low-cost airlines, standard airlines, coaches, cross-channel ferries and on the Amsterdam route, the Dutchflyer. That is ample competition. If there were a genuine monopoly concern, there would have been some kind of political intervention by now, it has been 24 years!
In addition, Izy does not compete with Thalys. They are run by Thalys, who compete with itself to prevent someone else doing so, if anything it's an anti-competitive strategy. Izy uses the same staff, often the same trainsets and often the same route as the core Thalys services, which have now gained a Business class, which means higher fares on those services. Eurostar probably could do the same as Izy at some point, but it doesn't seem to really fit in with the Eurostar brand nor the direction of Eurostar's current offering.
Let's say that another operator does decide to launch a low-cost variant - there is no space at St Pancras, expensive track access fees on the whole route, unless lengthy diversions are considered, Stratford seems to be a no-goer (the station in its current format means you cannot reverse trains there, and fitting in a departure lounge for a high-capacity TGV would be a miracle) and with Eurostar cautious enough around Brexit (think the lack of Amsterdam>London directs), it's not going to get any easier.
Eurostar can improve by sorting out its station capacity, modifying the timetable, sorting out the Amsterdam service and Ashford problems and then it can offer more, another operator would not do anything to improve the overall service on the route (although DB trains to Germany might, given it'd be a new route, but DB would have done it by now if they were serious).
Have they changed the order recently? Fairly sure when I used Eurostar (2009, 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014) it was a case of: show your ticket and passport together, then go through security, and finally show passport to French officials.
In as long as I’ve been taking Eurostar (2012 if not earlier) you’ve never needed to show your ticket and passport together at St. Pancras.
However, the step 3 (passport swipe by Eurostar for UK Border Force) has only come in in the last year or two.
However, the step 3 (passport swipe by Eurostar for UK Border Force) has only come in in the last year or two.
EM2
Established Member
The tunnel (and HS1) is open to any company that can comply with the operating regulations.
londonteacher
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Despite the longer journey times Eurostar offers ease when travelling with them. One train to many places without the hassle of the short haul flights and the journey from the airport to the city centre. I have travelled on Eurostar many times including journeys to Paris, Brussels and further to Cologne with a change to DB in Brussels. The services has been good, and although not as cheap as some Ryanair flights when booking way in advance has been punctual.
Eurostar is missing the opportunity to expand their network, and should do so on an excursion based day trip model. Like the railtours we have in the UK, these journeys could occur on both sides of the Channel. An example could be a WW2 themed trip to Dunkerque leaving London early about 6am and calling at Ashford International, Calais Frethun and Gare de Dunkerque. Whilst this may not be a regular occurence, this could be a good addition to the Eurostar Business.
Eurostar is missing the opportunity to expand their network, and should do so on an excursion based day trip model. Like the railtours we have in the UK, these journeys could occur on both sides of the Channel. An example could be a WW2 themed trip to Dunkerque leaving London early about 6am and calling at Ashford International, Calais Frethun and Gare de Dunkerque. Whilst this may not be a regular occurence, this could be a good addition to the Eurostar Business.
Aictos
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Just to point out that the lack of Amsterdam to London Eurostar services is nothing to do with Eurostar being cautious around Brexit as you have claimed but rather because the infrastructure is not yet ready in Rotterdam or Amsterdam hence on the Amsterdam to London leg you HAVE to go though security in Brussels, when the infrastructure is ready for use in the Netherlands THEN you will see direct services without having to go though security checks in Brussels.
Err, what? 4 airlines between London and Paris, operation 22 return flights a day between them?
Aictos
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Indeed as well as the ferry routes as well providing competition, maybe there isn't enough rail competition but the main competition as @Bald Rick has allured to is the rail-air market.
In any case; for these thinking Eurostar is a wasted opportunity then the Financial Times ran a article on the 6th August 2009 which had the following figures:
In 2004; it had a 66% share of the London–Paris market and a 59% share of the London–Brussels market.
In 2007, it had a 71% share of the London–Paris and 65% share of the for London–Brussels routes.
Also for time conscious users, Eurostar is quicker and easier to travel between Central London and Central Paris which is why they have a dominant share of the combined rail–air market for London to Paris/Brussels and will make inroads into the combined rail–air market for London to Amsterdam as well.
coppercapped
Established Member
The most significant change which caused the Dover - Oostende service to be withdrawn was the completion some 15 or 20 years ago of the A16/E40 Autoroute along the French and Belgium coast between Calais/Dunkerque and Jabekke just outside Oostende on the Brussel - Oostende Autoroute.
This cut driving time along the coast from Calais to Oostende to about an hour and a quarter. This made a Dover - Calais (or Dunkeque) crossing a good hour to an hour and a half faster than the Dover - Oostende ships. Given the more frequent crossings on the Calais or Dunkerque routes the demise of the Oostende service was inevitable.
I'm not sure whether there was a frequent Dover - Zeebrugge service. I certainly used to use the crossing to Harwich quite frequently when I lived in Belgium - but that service stopped sometime after I left. I'm not sure of the date.
johnnychips
Established Member
The above is an excellent post, something I hadn’t thought of. The boat from Oostende used to hug the Belgian coast to almost Calais anyway, rather than go in a straight line, before crossing the Channel. This would have been much slower than vehicles can travel today. Yes, there was the Jetfoil for foot passengers, but it did get cancelled a lot because of the weather.
Travelled last Saturday.
1. Ticket check in
2. Baggage scan
3. UK/Eurostar passport check. Choice of e-gate or manual check
4. French passport check. Only noticed manual check.
EM2
Established Member
Eurostar weren't an incumbent when the regs were produced. That's why they use the stock that they do, to comply.
What's to stop another operator buying Velaros? Or they could have bought and refurbished the 373s?
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
When I last used it, the e-gates outbound at St Pancras were for the French check, not the UK one. I think you have it the wrong way round there.
Journeyman
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I think the withdrawn 373s were deliberately cut up very quickly to prevent a competitor getting hold of them, but they're only any good for London - Brussels/Paris services, and I don't think there's a lot of need for more operators on that route.
I conclude from the discussion so far, that the only reason E* is not similar to a GWR departure from Paddington for Cardiff (also two capitals, in different countries) is:
a) totally unnecessary baggage checks (a terrorist could just as easily blow up a train in the Severn Tunnel)
b) lack of Schengen, imposing unnecessary border checks, made unneeded anyway in these days of E passports. If you are a non EU passenger, you were already controlled at a UK airport or a French or other Schengen airport or port
I shall not live to see it, but I had hoped one day to be able to get on a HS2 train at, say, Birmingham, and 3 hours later to be sat sipping coffee in a pavement cafe in Montmartre.
One can but dream.
a) totally unnecessary baggage checks (a terrorist could just as easily blow up a train in the Severn Tunnel)
b) lack of Schengen, imposing unnecessary border checks, made unneeded anyway in these days of E passports. If you are a non EU passenger, you were already controlled at a UK airport or a French or other Schengen airport or port
I shall not live to see it, but I had hoped one day to be able to get on a HS2 train at, say, Birmingham, and 3 hours later to be sat sipping coffee in a pavement cafe in Montmartre.
One can but dream.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Pure fantasy but as a keen cyclist it would be great to have a dedicated cycle lane alongside the service tunnel via the entrance at Samphire Hoe. Chris Froome cycled through it once albeit as a one-off arrangement. Granted there'd have to be customs and passport checks somewhere but it would surely make for the cheapest route to mainland Europe
Haha, that would surely make for the World's most boring cycle ride... 3 hours or so of nothing but continuous tunnel. To say nothing of the pleasures of getting a puncture halfway along and then having to walk 15 miles or so to the exit.
Mind you the breeze from the trains whooshing past in the neighbouring tunnel might liven things up a bit
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
They could, but it's just nowhere near such a high profile target.
Altnabreac
Established Member
Pure fantasy but as a keen cyclist it would be great to have a dedicated cycle lane alongside the service tunnel via the entrance at Samphire Hoe. Chris Froome cycled through it once albeit as a one-off arrangement. Granted there'd have to be customs and passport checks somewhere but it would surely make for the cheapest route to mainland Europe
Its only £20 per head to take a bike through on Le Shuttle at the moment so I can't see it actually being any cheaper if they actually let you cycle through yourself!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
At present bombs are out of favour, driving cars into people seems to be more popular at the moment. Which, while bad, seems to be not scaring me in the slightest (as the chance of being caught up is so low), so isn't really working in that sense.
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