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London Underground parallel fast and stopping sections

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NorthKent1989

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If TfL decided that all Piccadilly line trains were to call at every station (except perhaps Chiswick Park) between Acton Town and Hammersmith, would there be a major backlash? Every time I've travelled on the line I have seen District line passengers making the dash across to the faster Piccadilly line
 
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Aictos

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If TfL decided that all Piccadilly line trains were to call at every station (except perhaps Chiswick Park) between Acton Town and Hammersmith, would there be a major backlash? Every time I've travelled on the line I have seen District line passengers making the dash across to the faster Piccadilly line

I hope not as it would make the journey between Heathrow and Central London even longer then it is at the moment, not everybody is going to be using Crossrail or Heathrow Express between Heathrow and Central London.

If they do that then they might as well carry that approach onto the Met and have it stop all stations and call at the same stations that the Jubilee does.
 

BJames

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Not really sure how necessary it would be though - as mentioned above you have to think about the Heathrow passengers and for the sake of customers at Turnham Green having to sit on the District Line for a couple of minutes extra, it is better to keep the Piccadilly line faster into London. In the past, during District Line closures, I believe that TfL have had the Uxbridge/Rayners Lane services calling at all stations on the slow line, but the Heathrow services have continued to run fast.
 

Aictos

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Certain stations don't have platforms to stop the piccs.

Unless you use the Slows which would affect the District services trying to fit in the Piccadilly services as well or unless you rebuild the stations so you have platforms on all lines neither of which is going to happen.
 

bionic

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Its quite possible the SSR signalling upgrade (if they ever get it to work properly!) will have some sort of effect on it too. I'm sure I read somewhere that Piccs will be barred from the slow once it's all completed.
 

rebmcr

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If they do that then they might as well carry that approach onto the Met and have it stop all stations and call at the same stations that the Jubilee does.

The Met really should stop at West Hampstead, but otherwise it is sensible to keep it fast.
 

W-on-Sea

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And Chiltern really should stop at West Hampstead too. For the interchange facilities. Can't see it happening anytime soon, though. There's barely the space (indeed, probably simply isn't the space, unless maybe they built some on the West side of West End Lane) for any extra platforms, for either the Met or Chiltern, and as for the budget.....
 

MatthewRead

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Not really sure how necessary it would be though - as mentioned above you have to think about the Heathrow passengers and for the sake of customers at Turnham Green having to sit on the District Line for a couple of minutes extra, it is better to keep the Piccadilly line faster into London. In the past, during District Line closures, I believe that TfL have had the Uxbridge/Rayners Lane services calling at all stations on the slow line, but the Heathrow services have continued to run fast.
And the Heathrow service is far too frequent they should at least stop at Turnham Green it only adds an extra 2 minutes to the journey!
 

Mojo

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And Chiltern really should stop at West Hampstead too. For the interchange facilities. Can't see it happening anytime soon, though. There's barely the space (indeed, probably simply isn't the space, unless maybe they built some on the West side of West End Lane) for any extra platforms, for either the Met or Chiltern, and as for the budget.....
Chiltern Railways had a proposal back in the early 2000s to slew the tracks and build an island platform on the north side of West End Lane (ie. the other side to the Jubilee line), combined with a walkway and other public realm improvements on West End Lane to facilitate easier interchange. I'm not sure there were any plans for Met line platforms however, but it's hard to see as most of the information is no longer online or otherwise too hard to find. There's a brief bit of product detail on this now archived website: http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/35.
 

Mojo

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Its quite possible the SSR signalling upgrade (if they ever get it to work properly!) will have some sort of effect on it too. I'm sure I read somewhere that Piccs will be barred from the slow once it's all completed.
FWIW the lines are "Local" (not "Slow") and "Fast." But yes, under the current plans there would be no access to the local lines east of Acton Town for conventionally signalled trains.
 

AM9

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If TfL decided that all Piccadilly line trains were to call at every station (except perhaps Chiswick Park) between Acton Town and Hammersmith, would there be a major backlash? Every time I've travelled on the line I have seen District line passengers making the dash across to the faster Piccadilly line
This issue is often mentioned where there are fast and slow services operating on their own tracks. In reality, providing there are enough trains running the slow lines to meet demand, the passengers going from origins before, and travelling to stations beyond the locals are better kept separate from the local passengers. Otherwise, every train will have a mix of both and dwell times will increase as passengers squeeze past those already on board or not wanting to remain on the train. (sorry if that sounds confusing).
 

NorthKent1989

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This issue is often mentioned where there are fast and slow services operating on their own tracks. In reality, providing there are enough trains running the slow lines to meet demand, the passengers going from origins before, and travelling to stations beyond the locals are better kept separate from the local passengers. Otherwise, every train will have a mix of both and dwell times will increase as passengers squeeze past those already on board or not wanting to remain on the train. (sorry if that sounds confusing).

No it’s not confusing at all, it’s a good point, thanks :)
 

axlrosen

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The Met really should stop at West Hampstead, but otherwise it is sensible to keep it fast.

Actually this brings up a question in my mind: how was it originally decided that there would be exactly one interchange in the section between Baker Street and Wembley Park, and that it would be at Finchley Road? Why not one more, or even one less (i.e. skip Finchley Road too)?
 

Clip

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Actually this brings up a question in my mind: how was it originally decided that there would be exactly one interchange in the section between Baker Street and Wembley Park, and that it would be at Finchley Road? Why not one more, or even one less (i.e. skip Finchley Road too)?

The big curve after it going north maybe?
 

NorthKent1989

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Met trains stopping at West Hampstead would be very useful, a potential interchange hub of the Met, Jubilee, North London, Chiltern and Thameslink meeting would be great
 

Teflon Lettuce

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I've always wondered why the Piccadilly line runs non-stop Hammersmith- Acton Town.. I lived in Hounslow for a couple of yrs and used the Picc regularly to get to/ from Central London... one thing I am certain of... by missing out 3 or 4 stops the Piccadilly was approx 20-30 seconds faster than a parallel District line train...
 

transmanche

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  • I've always wondered why the Piccadilly line runs non-stop Hammersmith- Acton Town.. I lived in Hounslow for a couple of yrs and used the Picc regularly to get to/ from Central London... one thing I am certain of... by missing out 3 or 4 stops the Piccadilly was approx 20-30 seconds faster than a parallel District line train...
  • Not 20-30 seconds, you're way off. A Piccadilly line train is fully 3½ mins faster than a District line train between Acton Town and Hammersmith. A District line train takes 9½ mins, whereas a Piccadilly line train only takes 6 mins.
  • That 3½ mins saves a couple of Piccadilly line trains: they'd need at least two more trains on the Piccadilly line to maintain 24tph in the high peak if all trains stopped at all stations.
  • The District line service is sufficient for passenger traffic at those stations - they don't need the extra 24tph service from the Piccadilly line.
  • Finally, there are actually no platforms on the Piccadilly line tracks at Chiswick Park. And only a westbound platform at Stamford Brook.
So, the reason the Piccadilly line runs non-stop between Acton Town and Hammersmith is that TfL would have to build three platforms, buy some extra trains and slow down a lot of people's journeys in order to do so.
 

Teflon Lettuce

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  • Not 20-30 seconds, you're way off. A Piccadilly line train is fully 3½ mins faster than a District line train between Acton Town and Hammersmith. A District line train takes 9½ mins, whereas a Piccadilly line train only takes 6 mins.
  • That 3½ mins saves a couple of Piccadilly line trains: they'd need at least two more trains on the Piccadilly line to maintain 24tph in the high peak if all trains stopped at all stations.
  • The District line service is sufficient for passenger traffic at those stations - they don't need the extra 24tph service from the Piccadilly line.
  • Finally, there are actually no platforms on the Piccadilly line tracks at Chiswick Park. And only a westbound platform at Stamford Brook.
So, the reason the Piccadilly line runs non-stop between Acton Town and Hammersmith is that TfL would have to build three platforms, buy some extra trains and slow down a lot of people's journeys in order to do so.
well it was over 15 yrs ago now that I lived in Hounslow so I assume that the Piccadilly line has probably been upgraded since then... but I can assure you that what I reported in my post was based on observation.. ie both trains leaving Hammersmith together... and the usual scenario was that the Piccadilly trains doors would just be closing at Acton Town as the District line train pulled in...

of course I am aware that the infrastructure isn't in place for the trains to actually stop... my point was that it was incomprehensible to me why, for such a short gain in time there was the non-stop section there in the first place...

out of interest... before the Piccadilly line was built was there this non-stop section for district line trains to hounslow?
 

edwin_m

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well it was over 15 yrs ago now that I lived in Hounslow so I assume that the Piccadilly line has probably been upgraded since then... but I can assure you that what I reported in my post was based on observation.. ie both trains leaving Hammersmith together... and the usual scenario was that the Piccadilly trains doors would just be closing at Acton Town as the District line train pulled in...

of course I am aware that the infrastructure isn't in place for the trains to actually stop... my point was that it was incomprehensible to me why, for such a short gain in time there was the non-stop section there in the first place...

out of interest... before the Piccadilly line was built was there this non-stop section for district line trains to hounslow?
I can't speak for the Piccadilly but I was a reasonably regular traveller into London from Stanmore when visiting relatives in the 70s and 80s. With the possible exception of late nights when the service was thinner, if you changed to the Met at Wembley Park you would always overtake at least two Bakerloo/Jubilee trains - the one you'd got off and the one before. With the line speed, acceleration and braking rates of the Underground, 1min loss of time would be typical for a station stop on a maximum speed section, compared to running through at line speed. Could it be that the Piccadilly at Acton Town was the one after the one after the one that started from Hammersmith at the same time?
 

Mojo

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well it was over 15 yrs ago now that I lived in Hounslow so I assume that the Piccadilly line has probably been upgraded since then... but I can assure you that what I reported in my post was based on observation.. ie both trains leaving Hammersmith together... and the usual scenario was that the Piccadilly trains doors would just be closing at Acton Town as the District line train pulled in...
It hasn’t been upgraded at all. Trains and signalling on the ground works in just the same way (control software has changed however but that doesn’t increase the throughout or speed of trains in normal circumstances).

In fact; if Piccadilly line trains did stop on the fasts they would probably be slower, as the signalling is not set up for it at all; Ravenscourt Park and Stamford Brook (WB) have no multi-home signals at all and other signals having very long overlaps. Over Christmas 2016 Piccadilly line trains were calling at all stations on the fast line due to engineering works on the District, and trains were running very slowly. Part of that was the fact District line trains were reversing at Acton Town but it was certainly not helped by the limitations of signalling on the fast lines.
 

Dstock7080

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out of interest... before the Piccadilly line was built was there this non-stop section for district line trains to hounslow?
before the Piccadilly Line was built there were only two tracks from Acton Town to Turnham Green junction where the LNWR joined from Richmond and occupied the two northern tracks. These fell into disuse hence they were re-used during the four-tracking works from Hammersmith to Acton.
 

MatthewRead

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It hasn’t been upgraded at all. Trains and signalling on the ground works in just the same way (control software has changed however but that doesn’t increase the throughout or speed of trains in normal circumstances).

In fact; if Piccadilly line trains did stop on the fasts they would probably be slower, as the signalling is not set up for it at all; Ravenscourt Park and Stamford Brook (WB) have no multi-home signals at all and other signals having very long overlaps. Over Christmas 2016 Piccadilly line trains were calling at all stations on the fast line due to engineering works on the District, and trains were running very slowly. Part of that was the fact District line trains were reversing at Acton Town but it was certainly not helped by the limitations of signalling on the fast lines.
I understand that the signalling is to be upgraded between Hammersmith and Acton Town this Christmas which involves severing all connections between the local and fast lines I don't see what good it would do?
 

Dstock7080

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I understand that the signalling is to be upgraded between Hammersmith and Acton Town this Christmas which involves severing all connections between the local and fast lines I don't see what good it would do?
No work is scheduled on the District or Piccadilly Lines this Christmas, except 29-30 December no service Embankment-East Ham.
CBTC work are not due on this section until 2020/21.
 

Mikey C

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Actually this brings up a question in my mind: how was it originally decided that there would be exactly one interchange in the section between Baker Street and Wembley Park, and that it would be at Finchley Road? Why not one more, or even one less (i.e. skip Finchley Road too)?

Finchley Road is a fairly busy station in itself, it's on a main road and serves many buses (and coaches). West Hampstead was much quieter, especially back in days of irregular North London line trains and before the Bedpan electrification.

Met trains stopping at West Hampstead would be very useful, a potential interchange hub of the Met, Jubilee, North London, Chiltern and Thameslink meeting would be great

The Overground connection could certainly be useful, I'm not sure how many people would actually change from the Met to Thameslink though?
 

Statto

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Looking on google earth the space at West Hampstead looks quite tight to build other platforms on the met & Chiltern Lines, without having to demolish nearby properties & realigning the tracks.
 
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