06.04 Swansea - Crewe via Llandod departs 38 down, arr 2 early - 20/08/18

70014IronDuke · 20 Aug 2018

I realise there is often some waiting time on the HoWL that enables crews to recover chunks of time, but today's efforts by ATW is still impressive.

The first departure ex Swansea was 38 1/2 down today (anyone know why?).

<EDIT - I originally put 42.5 ' down by mistake>

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P55172/2018/08/20/advanced

By Llanwrtyd, it had recovered 12', and it then won back a further 15' as a result of the 17 min waiting time. (Stop cut to just 2 mins).

And presumably it didn't have to stop at numerous request stops, so by Shrewsbury it arrived only 6 1/2 down.
But despite what has to have been some smart running, I assume it also needed determined efforts by guard and driver at the many stops to save 10 seconds here, and 20 there, to achieve this.

Well done those crews. I hope management have taken note.

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ChiefPlanner · 20 Aug 2018

Good work - but then a Carmarthen crew on a mission.

Da Iawn / Well done !...

craigybagel · 20 Aug 2018

ChiefPlanner said:
Good work - but then a Carmarthen crew on a mission.

Da Iawn / Well done !...

Only as far as Llanwrtyd! Shrewsbury driver, Crewe guard from there to Shrewsbury, and a seperate Shrewsbury driver and Chester guard the rest of the way to Crewe.

Most of the time recovered is just down to the very generous timetabling on the line, and the nature of needing to fit around crossing points when most stops are by request only. It didn't have to wait 15 minutes at Llanwrtyd for the arrival of the first southbound like it normal has to - and the 5 minute wait at Llandrindod (which is usually closer to 10 in reality) could be cut down to 3 minutes, enough time to swap tokens. Same situation at Shrewsbury, where it's booked to wait a few minutes but didn't need to today. Throw in the fact it was a 150 today and not a 153 and you end up with your early arrival at Crewe.

ChiefPlanner · 20 Aug 2018

craigybagel said:
Only as far as Llanwrtyd! Shrewsbury driver, Crewe guard north of there.

Most of the time recovered is just down to the very generous timetabling on the line, and the nature of needing to fit around crossing points when most stops are by request only. It didn't have to wait 15 minutes at Llanwrtyd for the arrival of the first southbound like it normal has to - and the 5 minute wait at Llandrindod (which is usually closer to 10 in reality) could be cut down to 3 minutes, enough time to swap tokens. Same situation at Shrewsbury, where it's booked to wait a few minutes but didn't need to today. Throw in the fact it was a 150 today and not a 153 and you end up with your early arrival at Crewe.

Of course - good work by Wales and BORDERS crews then !

In Welsh .."Arddferchog"

PHILIPE · 20 Aug 2018

I'm not sure of the reason for the late start from Swansea which was shown on Journey Check but I let it go in and come out without taking it in. I notice that the 0545 Swansea to Pembroke Dock to which the unit comes up attached to from Carmarthen didn't leave until after it at 0646 although they arrived in plenty of time. Chief Planner beat me to it but I was going to say "Llongyfarchiadau" i'r criw.

Red Dragon · 20 Aug 2018

PHILIPE said:
........ but I was going to say "Llongyfarchiadau" i'r criw.

Daiawn Philipe

Esker-pades · 20 Aug 2018

And helped by not having to wait at Llanwrtyd for 17 minutes.

70014IronDuke · 21 Aug 2018

craigybagel said:
...
Most of the time recovered is just down to the very generous timetabling on the line, and the nature of needing to fit around crossing points when most stops are by request only. It didn't have to wait 15 minutes at Llanwrtyd for the arrival of the first southbound like it normal has to - and the 5 minute wait at Llandrindod (which is usually closer to 10 in reality) could be cut down to 3 minutes, enough time to swap tokens. Same situation at Shrewsbury, where it's booked to wait a few minutes but didn't need to today. Throw in the fact it was a 150 today and not a 153 and you end up with your early arrival at Crewe.

Ah. Piece of cake then, picking up 40 1/2 + 2 minutes from Swansea to Crewe. (40 because, if you look, there was 2' lost just before Shrewsbury, presumably for signals or a TSR). I guess a trainee driver + guard could do just as well while listening to music on their i-phones.
Certainly no reason for a note of appreciation from some respondents to this thread if they were managers.

craigybagel · 21 Aug 2018

70014IronDuke said:
Ah. Piece of cake then, picking up 40 1/2 + 2 minutes from Swansea to Crewe. (40 because, if you look, there was 2' lost just before Shrewsbury, presumably for signals or a TSR). I guess a trainee driver + guard could do just as well while listening to music on their i-phones.
Certainly no reason for a note of appreciation from some respondents to this thread if they were managers.

I'm not having a dig at the traincrew - in case my comments weren't obvious enough, I work that line regularly myself, and I've made up similar amounts of time. I'm sure they did a professional job and that there was no listening to music taking place, but it's all pretty routine. There are circumstances where a traincrew working hard who know a route very well can help to make up time, but in this particular instance most of the recovery was down to the way the line is timetabled.

70014IronDuke · 21 Aug 2018

craigybagel said:
I'm not having a dig at the traincrew - in case my comments weren't obvious enough, I work that line regularly myself, and I've made up similar amounts of time. I'm sure they did a professional job and that there was no listening to music taking place, but it's all pretty routine. There are circumstances where a traincrew working hard who know a route very well can help to make up time, but in this particular instance most of the recovery was down to the way the line is timetabled.

OK. If you've done it, can't argue. Interesting, though - yesterday's last departure from Llandod was 14' down, and still 10' arrival at Llanelli.
This at a time when you would imagine many of the request stops would be skipped, and time made up.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P56113/2018/08/20/advanced

Perhaps there was an engine out? He took 33' Llandod - Llanwrytd versus 18 1/2 in the WTT?

DelW · 21 Aug 2018

70014IronDuke said:
OK. If you've done it, can't argue. Interesting, though - yesterday's last departure from Llandod was 14' down, and still 10' arrival at Llanelli.
This at a time when you would imagine many of the request stops would be skipped, and time made up.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P56113/2018/08/20/advanced

Perhaps there was an engine out? He took 33' Llandod - Llanwrytd versus 18 1/2 in the WTT?

I think you might have misread a time, the WTT time Llan'dod to Llanwrtyd is 28min (29 in the public TT). Almost all the time lost over that section was recouped in a shorter dwell time at Llanwrtyd. Most of the time loss resulted from a delay leaving Shrewsbury.
From memory several of the request stops are adjacent to level crossings which are train crew operated, so lack of passengers alighting or boarding doesn't necessarily mean a time saving at those stops.

craigybagel · 21 Aug 2018

70014IronDuke said:
OK. If you've done it, can't argue. Interesting, though - yesterday's last departure from Llandod was 14' down, and still 10' arrival at Llanelli.
This at a time when you would imagine many of the request stops would be skipped, and time made up.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P56113/2018/08/20/advanced

Perhaps there was an engine out? He took 33' Llandod - Llanwrytd versus 18 1/2 in the WTT?

Some of the services give more leeway then others. For example, the last up service yesterday was 15 late from Llanwrtyd because of it waiting for the down service you mentioned - and yet it was still on time leaving Llandrindod.

I've no idea why this is the case, there are some very odd things that happen with the timetable on that line since the extra morning services were put in - but it is very reassuring to know it's easier to make up time then it is on other routes. There's been a half mile long 20mph TSR (with a seperate short 5mph TSR embedded within it) in place near Dolau for what must be around a year now - but it's not been causing any issues with time keeping in general, it's just cut into recovery time when delays have happened.

ashworth · 21 Aug 2018

I thought I’d ask this question here rather than start a new thread. I can see there are people here who know the line well so this may the best place ask.

I’m doing a trip on the line one day next week starting and finishing at Crewe. I’m travelling down on the 0914 from Crewe and intending getting off at Llandeilo. I’m mainly interested in seeing the best of the scenery and feel that Llandeilo will be far enough to travel and will also be a nice place to spend a couple of hours before travelling back. I have read that many of the trains on the line are operated by single carriage 153’s and that there can be some overcrowding. Am I likely to find any difficulty getting a seat at Llandeilo on the 1530 departure from Llandeilo back to Crewe. Are any days of next week Tues to Fri best to avoid?

craigybagel · 21 Aug 2018

ashworth said:
I thought I’d ask this question here rather than start a new thread. I can see there are people here who know the line well so this may the best place ask.

I’m doing a trip on the line one day next week starting and finishing at Crewe. I’m travelling down on the 0914 from Crewe and intending getting off at Llandeilo. I’m mainly interested in seeing the best of the scenery and feel that Llandeilo will be far enough to travel and will also be a nice place to spend a couple of hours before travelling back. I have read that many of the trains on the line are operated by single carriage 153’s and that there can be some overcrowding. Am I likely to find any difficulty getting a seat at Llandeilo on the 1530 departure from Llandeilo back to Crewe. Are any days of next week Tues to Fri best to avoid?

I can't guarantee anything, but you should be ok. Most of the overcrowding tends to happen on Saturdays, and during Winter when Welsh concession bus pass holders get free travel. As neither of those apply, it shouldn't be much of an issue.

Parallel · 21 Aug 2018

It’s the 14:05 departure from Shrewsbury that is usually full until Knighton, you should be OK on the one before. There is some lovely scenery also south of Llandeilo, especially between Pontarddulais and Bynea. They do a Heart of Wales Circular Ranger which would let you travel the whole line and then travel back via Cardiff if you wished.

ashworth · 21 Aug 2018

Parallel said:
It’s the 14:05 departure from Shrewsbury that is usually full until Knighton, you should be OK on the one before. There is some lovely scenery also south of Llandeilo, especially between Pontarddulais and Bynea. They do a Heart of Wales Circular Ranger which would let you travel the whole line and then travel back via Cardiff if you wished.

Yes, I realise that I will miss some nice scenery south of Llandeilo but what I’m really wanting is a nice place to wander around for a couple of hours and also to get something to eat. I don’t really want to be travelling all day. I will probably do the whole line at some time in the future using an Explore Wales Pass.

I’m having a week based in Crewe using a 7 Day Heart of England Rover @ £79 with my Senior Railcard. I was going to use this along with a Day Return from Craven Arms @ only £8.80 to do a trip from Crewe to Llandeilo and back. I’m using the Heart of England Rover to travel out from Nottingham to Crewe on Sunday and back on Saturday via Tamworth or even Birmingham to avoid the buses with the Derby blockade. On the other days I’m planning to visit interesting towns on the route between Crewe and Hereford and also explore places further south on the Cotswold Line from Hereford to Oxford, but perhaps travelling down via Birmingham to reach some destinations.

DelW · 22 Aug 2018

Llandeilo is a pleasant little town, and a couple of hours between trains should give you enough time to explore it.

If you're looking for a little refreshment, the Angel and the White Horse are both welcoming town-centre pubs, or if you don't mind a little walk over the river (with good views on a sunny day), the Torbay Inn near Ffairfach station has been recommended to me (but it has quite restricted lunchtime hours so I've never yet got there). I'm sure there are other good options but those are the limit of my personal experience.

CaptainHaddock · 22 Aug 2018

DelW said:
Llandeilo is a pleasant little town, and a couple of hours between trains should give you enough time to explore it.

If you're looking for a little refreshment, the Angel and the White Horse are both welcoming town-centre pubs, or if you don't mind a little walk over the river (with good views on a sunny day), the Torbay Inn near Ffairfach station has been recommended to me (but it has quite restricted lunchtime hours so I've never yet got there). I'm sure there are other good options but those are the limit of my personal experience.

You're right, according to www.whatpub.com, the Torbay Inn doesn't open till 4pm so if ashworth intends to get the 1530 back to Crewe he'd miss out. Plenty of other refreshment stops available in the town though.

https://whatpub.com/search?q=llandeilo

ChiefPlanner · 22 Aug 2018

CaptainHaddock said:
You're right, according to www.whatpub.com, the Torbay Inn doesn't open till 4pm so if ashworth intends to get the 1530 back to Crewe he'd miss out. Plenty of other refreshment stops available in the town though.

https://whatpub.com/search?q=llandeilo

Always best to check pub opening times - a day out to Rhymney and Hengoed yesterday was somewhat thwarted refreshment and food wise to see that all 3 pubs in the latter area were closed ! , so we made do with a pasty from the local shop.

Look forward to the report in due course.

ashworth · 22 Aug 2018

Thanks for all the useful information. Looking at the timetable, if all goes to plan I should have approx 2 hrs and 15 min in Llandeilo. Looking at the OS map, I didn’t realise that Ffaifach station, just down the hill and over the bridge and was so close. Therefore I will probably get a return to Ffairfach and even though the Torbay Inn is not open have walk over the bridge and get the train back from there. It will enable me to see more of Llandeilo without having to retrace my steps back to the station. Also, if the train is busy with it being school holidays and a bank holiday week, I will be getting on before others do at Llandeilo.

70014IronDuke · 22 Aug 2018

DelW said:
I think you might have misread a time, the WTT time Llan'dod to Llanwrtyd is 28min (29 in the public TT).

Ooops. Apologies, you are correct. It doesn't actually alter my main point, however, just makes it less spectacular.

DelW said:
Almost all the time lost over that section was recouped in a shorter dwell time at Llanwrtyd.

That's irrelevant to my point. The train still lost time over a running section, taking 33 mins instead of 28, and at a time when several of the request stops are most likely to be skipped. That begs the question: why? (Yes, I know some trains have to stop to work the crossings - but AFAIR, those stops are not marked request, although that might have changed.)

DelW said:
Most of the time loss resulted from a delay leaving Shrewsbury.

I know. I saw that. But I wasn't referring to that, because it made up a few minutes to Llandod - that is pretty typical, and not especially noteworthy.

The point is that this train, in contrast to the one in the thread title, struggled to make up time between Llandod and Gowerton - yes, it did a bit, but in fact, it LOST time between Llandod and Llanwrtyd - in spite of running at a time of day when few passengers would be joining.

Of course, there are a lot of unknowns. It is always possible a party of boy scouts joined at Llandod and were alighting at every stop to Llandeilo with tents, thus causing overtime at stops, I don't know. But it does not lend itself to the idea that significant time is easy to make up - except where there are long waiting times at passing loops.

DelW said:
From memory several of the request stops are adjacent to level crossings which are train crew operated, so lack of passengers alighting or boarding doesn't necessarily mean a time saving at those stops.

As mentioned, I believe these stops are not marked as request, at least in the relevant direction of travel.

70014IronDuke · 22 Aug 2018

craigybagel said:
Some of the services give more leeway then others. For example, the last up service yesterday was 15 late from Llanwrtyd because of it waiting for the down service you mentioned - and yet it was still on time leaving Llandrindod.

I've noticed that that train does exhibit a tendency to pick up time on that section if running late. Perhaps the crews just want to get 'ome.

craigybagel said:
... There's been a half mile long 20mph TSR (with a seperate short 5mph TSR embedded within it) in place near Dolau for what must be around a year now - but it's not been causing any issues with time keeping in general, it's just cut into recovery time when delays have happened.

Half a mile at 20 mph is bad enough, but 5 mph? Wow, that's really slow. What for? A weak bridge or something?

DelW · 22 Aug 2018

When the "new" timetable came out in 2015 (the one that added the early trains at each end), I was interested to see how the new crossing points worked, so I produced a time/location diagram for the 2014 services (dashed red and green) and 2015 services (solid blue and yellow). The comparison in numbers and lengths of the horizontal sections of each line (representing where a train is stopped) show how the dwell times were extended at crossing points, which are indeed the main opportunities for service recovery on this line.
The slope of each section gives an idea of the average speed (steeper = faster).
The timetable I worked from only showed departure times at Llanelli, so the reversal time there isn't shown. There may also have been some minor changes between 2015 and now, as the timetable bedded in.

craigybagel · 22 Aug 2018

70014IronDuke said:
I've noticed that that train does exhibit a tendency to pick up time on that section if running late. Perhaps the crews just want to get 'ome.

Probably not, the driver still has to do the last Wolverhampton afterwords! I think it's just overly generous timetabling - as I mentioned earlier, the morning services tend to get from Builth to Llandrindod a lot quicker then what the timetable requires as well as that evening service.

Half a mile at 20 mph is bad enough, but 5 mph? Wow, that's really slow. What for? A weak bridge or something?

Don't quote me on this, but I believe it's down in part to a farmers crossing where there are visibility issues - the 5 is just over the length of the crossing.

06.04 Swansea - Crewe via Llandod departs 38 down, arr 2 early - 20/08/18

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