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LNER: why such a small unreserved coach?

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mrmartin

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Haven't been to Edinburgh by train as much as I used to, but had a couple of trips in the last couple of months. Both were a total mess because of literally 12 seats out of the 12ish coaches being marked as unreserved.

I take the train (over flying, which is generally cheaper) because I can get an open return (at quite a price), so if meeting finishes early or later it's not a problem to get back.

VTWC have the right idea - 2 unreserved coaches (unless it's a 9 coach train). Shame it is such a nightmare on east coast.
 
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ainsworth74

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Bletchleyite said:
They are in 9 coach sets, so to be equal to VTWC that should be one unreserved coach - which I thought was what they did!
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They do on the electric sets (coach H the buffet) but the HSTs don't have an unreserved coach but do seem to scatter some seats around the train that are unreservable.
 
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GWR used to have an unreserved coach, now in the busy period they seem to think it's ok to have maybe 10-12 unreserved seats across a whole train when it's ram loaded. Cue people sitting on the floor.
 
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ainsworth74 said:
They do on the electric sets (coach H the buffet) but the HSTs don't have an unreserved coach but do seem to scatter some seats around the train that are unreservable.
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I have noticed that coach G on the HST sets seems to be the last to fill with reservations, so you could say that is the 'unreserved coach' for standard class on most HST services (the Hull Executive excluded as the set used there doesn't have a coach G).
 
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jyte said:
GWR used to have an unreserved coach, now in the busy period they seem to think it's ok to have maybe 10-12 unreserved seats across a whole train when it's ram loaded. Cue people sitting on the floor.
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Incorrect.

Coach E always used to be the unreserved coach when there were 5 standard class coaches, but now that on HSTs there are at least 6 (sometimes 6 and a half), F is now the unreserved coach and E can be reserved but never more than about 25%.

Only situation in which you can end up with no unreserved coach is if the train is short formed.

I'm not sure what coach is unreserved on IETs.
 
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something I've never quite understood, given they can be swapped (on under the wires services anyway) is why with all the various reforms and refurbs the opportunity was never taken to make the seating layout of the HSTs and electric sets near enough identical.
 
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ainsworth74 said:
They do on the electric sets (coach H the buffet) but the HSTs don't have an unreserved coach but do seem to scatter some seats around the train that are unreservable.
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Coach H is half a vehicle though....
 
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The far end of Coach B is usually unreserved, but they do fill it up at very busy times - but it would have to be a fully booked train.

The departure screen diagrams (a VTEC creation but I think adapted from VTWC?) are very welcome in showing bookings!

I've noticed LNER trains seem very heavily booked at the moment - not sure if it's just the effect of the Edinburgh Festival? They've been much busier the last fortnight than they usually are.
 
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What we are talking about is reservable seats. What we are saying is that one coach will not be, but also there may be any number of free seats in the reservable coaches for the journey I want to do, either because they are unreserved throughout or because the reservation is only partial. Personnally, I see it as another hassle when I have not been able to reserve, but I admit it is a compromise. That said, I would prefer more unreserved coaches or a clearer indication of points between which the seat is reserved.
 
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ainsworth74

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43096 said:
Coach H is half a vehicle though....
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True but what seats there are in the vehicle are unreserved but yes I suppose if we're looking for a whole coach then LNER don't have one on any of their trains.

It is interesting that of the four real long distance operators in LNER, XC, VTWC and GWR (sorry EMT, GA and SWR!) that LNER (and their predecessors) never bothered with a full unreserved coach on any of their trains. I wonder why?
 
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cuccir said:
The far end of Coach B is usually unreserved, but they do fill it up at very busy times - but it would have to be a fully booked train.

The departure screen diagrams (a VTEC creation but I think adapted from VTWC?) are very welcome in showing bookings!

I've noticed LNER trains seem very heavily booked at the moment - not sure if it's just the effect of the Edinburgh Festival? They've been much busier the last fortnight than they usually are.
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Well the southbound i was on from edb to kgx was pretty busy today. The guard from edb to NCL was announcing he would charge for seats that had bags on and just said train was extremely busy due to events in Edinburgh.

I'd say a lot is due to the festivals and also that tourism in Scotland has been on the increase.
 
ForTheLoveOf

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ainsworth74 said:
the four real long distance operators in LNER, XC, VTWC and GWR (sorry EMT, GA and SWR!)
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EMT and GA count in my book - they are both ex-Intercity franchises. Though GA's 'intercity services', much like the SWR Exeter services, can really be put in the 'not quite either' category.
 
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ForTheLoveOf said:
EMT and GA count in my book - they are both ex-Intercity franchises. Though GA's 'intercity services', much like the SWR Exeter services, can really be put in the 'not quite either' category.
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GA’s IC services are (currently) more IC than either XC or GWR’s IET sets: at least they have a buffet car, rather than a trolley. To my mind, to be an IC service a proper catering facility should be provided: ie a fixed buffet, not just a trolley.
 
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mrmartin said:
Haven't been to Edinburgh by train as much as I used to, but had a couple of trips in the last couple of months. Both were a total mess because of literally 12 seats out of the 12ish coaches being marked as unreserved.
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But that's making the assumption that the last few people who obtained reservations would have chosen not to travel by train, or to travel by train on alternative services (but if other services were busy around that time, then the problem would just transfer onto those). In practice, many of them would have travelled anyway, and yes there would have been more unreserved seats, but also more people trying to find them too!

mrmartin said:
I take the train (over flying, which is generally cheaper) because I can get an open return (at quite a price), so if meeting finishes early or later it's not a problem to get back.
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Yes it is an advantage that trains do not require people to book in order to board them, but that does mean a seat cannot be guaranteed.

The ideal solution would be to run more trains at busy times, but there are unlikely to ever be enough at the busiest times because it is seen as uneconomical to have spare sets and crews who do nothing at times of reduced demand.
 
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Its the 9 coach pendos that went down to just coach c unreserved , thought they had done that on the 11 cars but least U is still free. When i have a non advance ticket means i dont have to worry about looking for unreserved seats .

I was in Greece and people had reservations but they werent marked , causes a lot of grief.
 
Skymonster

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To my mind the fundamental problem is that those paying the highest fares (flexible, walk-on) are those least likely to be able to find an unreserved seat. It is ironic (and I believe fundamentally wrong) that a traveller paying several hundred pounds for a trip from Edinburgh to London (or anywhere also for that matter) is denied a seat while a customer who has paid maybe 1/10th of the full fare can travel in comfort for the whole journey.

Widespread availability of cheap advance tickets with their compulsory reservations have exacerbated the problem. I believe that advance tickets should carry a compulsory specific train restriction (as they do now) but not a mandatory reservation for a seat on that train - and a [small] additional charge be levied if an advance customer also wants a seat reservation. That way, customers with advance tickets would still have to use the booked train, but some would not buy a seat reservation and instead would elect to take their chances along with the passengers seeking more flexibility. The end result would be fewer reserved seats and more opportunities for walk-ons to get a seat, while still ensuring that advance ticket holders were on the train they'd booked.
 
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It would be impossible to implement that idea without huge problems.

Websites need to be clear about the charges, and for reservable long distance trains you cannot justify charging a hidden extra for a seat, so booking sites would surely have to include the cost of a seat by default.

It would also cause problems on tickets that require changes en route. How would you handle a St Ives to Great Yarmouth journey? Do you charge two fees, to cover St Erth to Paddington and Liverpool Street to Norwich? Or one fee for the journey, but the customer may be unhappy having to stand on the non reservable trains.

I can see people complaining to the retailer when it's nothing to do with them.
 
Skymonster

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Of course it would be possible:
  • Websites could describe a fare as just a ticket for travel, if you want a reserved seat it will cost £X extra. Or display two fares (without seat reservation £xx, with seat reservation £xx+y). It's not a difficult concept to understand or program - airlines like Ryanair have done it for years. At present some TOCs manage to add an extra fee if customers want tickets mailed to them, so why should they not offer a seat reservation for an additional charge? They are both part of the ultimate total a customer pays and both extra charges are / would be optional.
  • One charge per end-to-end trip I would suggest - with any legs on un reservable trains trains marked as such at reservation time (just as now customers who want reservations are advised by the software when a specific leg is non reservable). At present if I book a ticket the software asks me if I want to reserve seats, and tells me if certain trains are not reservable. The same process would allow customers to reserve seats for a fee, and if they are not happy with what reservations are available they could back up and decide not to pay the reservation fee.
Fundamentally though on an overcrowded railway we have got to get past the current approach where customers paying the most are least likely to get a seat.
 
Esker-pades

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Skymonster said:
Of course it would be possible:
  • Websites could describe a fare as just a ticket for travel, if you want a reserved seat it will cost £X extra. Or display two fares (without seat reservation £xx, with seat reservation £xx+y). It's not a difficult concept to understand or program - airlines like Ryanair have done it for years. At present some TOCs manage to add an extra fee if customers want tickets mailed to them, so why should they not offer a seat reservation for an additional charge? They are both part of the ultimate total a customer pays and both extra charges are / would be optional.
  • One charge per end-to-end trip I would suggest - with any legs on un reservable trains trains marked as such at reservation time (just as now customers who want reservations are advised by the software when a specific leg is non reservable). At present if I book a ticket the software asks me if I want to reserve seats, and tells me if certain trains are not reservable. The same process would allow customers to reserve seats for a fee, and if they are not happy with what reservations are available they could back up and decide not to pay the reservation fee.
Fundamentally though on an overcrowded railway we have got to get past the current approach where customers paying the most are least likely to get a seat.
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As someone who fairly regularly travels between London and Edinburgh, the unreserved coaches are often the least crowded, because, by default, anyone on an advance ticket is shoved into the same coach. Once coach C is full, they move onto D, then E etc. Usually, coaches E-H are very empty. I often walk through the train from the seat I have reserved and find swathes of empty seating. The last time I didn't change seats on a long-distance journey was when I did first class on a very late train from Edinburgh to London.
 
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TPE are also bad for over-reserving. Many a time I have paced up and down the platform at Lime Street peering surreptitiously through the windows trying to see where the few free seats are before they finally deign to open the doors for the mad scramble five minutes before departure. But at least they let you on the platform unlike Euston where it is a Le Mans start.
 
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whatever became of the principle "first come first served"? If I am the first person to book to use a particular service then surely I should have my pick of what seat I wish to travel in... of course if I'm the 601st person to buy a ticket for that service and there's only 600 seats then surely that's my tough luck? I should either have booked earlier... or amend my plans to use a service where there are seats available... if you haven't guessed my opinion is that NO seats should be immune from reservation!
 
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Teflon Lettuce said:
whatever became of the principle "first come first served"? If I am the first person to book to use a particular service then surely I should have my pick of what seat I wish to travel in... of course if I'm the 601st person to buy a ticket for that service and there's only 600 seats then surely that's my tough luck? I should either have booked earlier... or amend my plans to use a service where there are seats available... if you haven't guessed my opinion is that NO seats should be immune from reservation!
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Surely one could construct a similar argument to say that every seat should be unreserved and it’s a case of first come first served.

I don’t need to book a space for my car to use a road, and the train should be the same. It’s simply not always practicable to plan, and nor should it be, so why should those paying the most for this flexibility then get hit a second time by finding most seats reserved? Of course if trains had enough capacity and weren’t stuffed full of cheap advance ticket holders...
 
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bramling said:
I don’t need to book a space for my car to use a road, and the train should be the same.
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I don't think it is the same in all regards (if at all). In particular, if a group of people are travelling together, they know that they will be seated together if they travel by car but can only achieve the same outcome on a train by means of seat reservations. That is a keen concern when travelling on long journeys or when travelling with children.
 
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Some of cheapest Scotrail Advances feature no seat reservation . And all advances on Northern feature no seat reservations .
 
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mrmartin

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Teflon Lettuce said:
whatever became of the principle "first come first served"? If I am the first person to book to use a particular service then surely I should have my pick of what seat I wish to travel in... of course if I'm the 601st person to buy a ticket for that service and there's only 600 seats then surely that's my tough luck? I should either have booked earlier... or amend my plans to use a service where there are seats available... if you haven't guessed my opinion is that NO seats should be immune from reservation!
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Because I'm paying nearly £150 for a super off peak return - rising to the best part of £400 for anytime?

On the train I was on there was 12 unreserved seats - out of over 500.

I have no problem at all standing for loaded trains at peak hours for less than an hour. Charging £150-400 for a ticket which you are almost guaranteed to stand for 4 to 5 hours is not on.

This is really easily solvable - leave a coach unreserved, like VTWC do. Leaving 12 seats for a intercity train is ridiculous
 
Helvellyn

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What makes matters worse is people on Advance Tickets (but also some flexible ones) who don't occupy their booked seats. Those without reservations are then left trying to work out if a "reserved" seat is actually then free or not.

I remember in the late 1990s CrossCountry used to be quite stringent at enforcing occupation of your reserved seat, with Guards making people move if they had sat elsewhere.
 
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