Contactless/Oyster: Delays/Cancellations causing more expensive route

mikesdeman · 20 Aug 2018

Hi all,

I relatively frequently travel between Sutton (Surrey) and Watford Junction. I use an unregistered PAYG Oyster card (or contactless sometimes).

There are 3 different ways in which to complete this journey. Via Clapham Junction direct on Southern (1 change), via Willesden Junction (WFJ>WIJ>CLJ>SUO) on London Overground and Southern, or via London Euston and connect on LU to London Victoria.

Using Oyster there are at least 2 fare options (but I believe 3 from memory). Tap in out and begining and end it's £3.20. If going via EUS then it's £7*. And I'm sure via WIJ is somewhere in between the two as you have to tap when you change although I cannot recall exact fare charged.

I have a couple of questions. Firstly am I correct about all of the fares (all off peak but I assume peak is same story)? Are they the same using contactless debit card? Secondly, Southern is the single worst service provider I have ever experienced. There is one train per hour between WFJ and CLJ and no matter what the issue it seems to be the first train to be cancelled. This often forces me to travel via EUS or WIJ which is far more expensive. Is there anyway to claim back the difference on a PAYG Oyster or even contactless? Thanks for your help.

*£7 this fare more often than not jumps to £13.20 which I am assuming it's because the taps fall outside NR|LU continuation time restrictions... Is this the reason?

RailUK Forums

Clip · 20 Aug 2018

Contactless is the same as oyster though i believe the caps are slightly different but the single fare finder on TFL shows them all for you
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/fares/single-fare-finder

Fares
Oyster

Contactless

Peak: £5.10Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.

Off Peak: £3.20At all other times including public holidays.

Alternative fares
Via Zone 1 changing at West Hampstead Thameslink/West Hampstead and Willesden Junction
Oyster

Contactless

Peak: £8.60Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.

Off Peak: £5.50At all other times including public holidays.

Via Zone 1 changing between National Rail and London Underground at Balham
Oyster

Contactless

Peak: £9.80Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.

Off Peak: £7.00At all other times including public holidays.

Via Zone 1 changing between National Rail and London Underground at Balham (or Vauxhall or Elephant & Castle) and Euston
Oyster

Contactless

Peak: £9.80Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.

Off Peak: £7.00At all other times including public holidays.

Via Zone 1 changing between National Rail and London Underground at Elephant & Castle or Vauxhall
Oyster

Contactless

Peak: £9.80Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.

Off Peak: £7.00At all other times including public holidays.

Via Zone 1 changing between National Rail and London Underground at Blackfriars, London Bridge or Victoria (or Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Waterloo or Waterloo East)
Oyster

Contactless

Peak: £9.80Monday to Friday from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to 1900.

Off Peak: £7.00At all other times including public holidays.

island · 20 Aug 2018

Via West Hampstead and Willesden Junction is £5.50, first of all. £3.20 if you avoid zone 1 and £7 if you travel via Euston are both correct. I don’t recognise a £13.20 fare. The default fare charged at Sutton for an unmatched touch-in/out is £8 peak and £5.50 off-peak, whilst at Watford Junction those numbers are £9.20 and £5.90. If you managed to exceed the maximum journey time you would be charged two default fares. No two of those numbers add to £13.20 though.

If you find that your Southern service is cancelled and you wish to continue travelling, you can either wait for the next Southern service or take a different route, paying the fare for that route. The fare difference isn’t refundable; however, if you are delayed 15 minutes or more at your destination, you can claim DelayRepay. You’ll probably need to register your card to do this.

swt_passenger · 20 Aug 2018

The single fare finder actually shows 6 routes.
AIUI if travelling via SN, LO WLL, LO DC lines and changing at Willesden Junction it doesn’t require an intermediate touch (on a route validation pink reader) to validate the route.

The other routes the system knows about should all be charged correctly, (again without using pink readers), because you have to go through appropriate gate-lines.

causton · 20 Aug 2018

Indeed the single fare finder will tell you where you need to tap.

There is no difference between taking the London Overground train and the Southern (CLJ - WFJ or CLJ - WIJ - WFJ) in terms of price, and as you cannot tap while on the Southern train there is no strict need to touch at Willesden Junction.

mikesdeman · 20 Aug 2018

causton said:
Indeed the single fare finder will tell you where you need to tap.

There is no difference between taking the London Overground train and the Southern (CLJ - WFJ or CLJ - WIJ - WFJ) in terms of price, and as you cannot tap while on the Southern train there is no strict need to touch at Willesden Junction.

Hi causton, I believe I do need to tap at WIJ as the Oyster readers there state to tap of changing trains. Also last year I'm sure I remember getting a charge on my contactless card after not tapping at the interchange WIJ on the second LOG train to Clapham when my card was read by RP on board.

swt_passenger said:
The single fare finder actually shows 6 routes.
AIUI if travelling via SN, LO WLL, LO DC lines and changing at Willesden Junction it doesn’t require an intermediate touch (on a route validation pink reader) to validate the route.

The other routes the system knows about should all be charged correctly, (again without using pink readers), because you have to go through appropriate gate-lines.

I don't know what the pink readers are could you explain :/ but please see above RE tapping at WIJ.

island said:
Via West Hampstead and Willesden Junction is £5.50, first of all. £3.20 if you avoid zone 1 and £7 if you travel via Euston are both correct. I don’t recognise a £13.20 fare. The default fare charged at Sutton for an unmatched touch-in/out is £8 peak and £5.50 off-peak, whilst at Watford Junction those numbers are £9.20 and £5.90. If you managed to exceed the maximum journey time you would be charged two default fares. No two of those numbers add to £13.20 though.

If you find that your Southern service is cancelled and you wish to continue travelling, you can either wait for the next Southern service or take a different route, paying the fare for that route. The fare difference isn’t refundable; however, if you are delayed 15 minutes or more at your destination, you can claim DelayRepay. You’ll probably need to register your card to do this.

Thanks for this great reply. The £13.20 may have been incorrectly remembered. Where can I find max allowed times? Also if you know, why is the fare more via WIJ? This isn't the fare reported on NR but from experience it is the one I'm charged if I tap when I change.

swt_passenger · 20 Aug 2018

At certain stations there are pink coloured readers on the platforms, they are there to allow Oyster PAYG or contactless users to touch mid journey and thereby ‘prove’ that they took a certain route between an origin and destination. Only necessary if the Oyster system assumes the default route is a more expensive one. Not applicable in your example though.

If touching a pink reader is ever necessary the single fare finder will explain. If you touch one when not required, then there should be no effect.

To emphasise, you do not need to touch a reader at Willesden Junction if changing from WLL to DC line on LO on your particular journey.

island · 20 Aug 2018

The maximum journey time is 70 minutes plus 10 minutes for each new zone you visit during your journey. An extra 10% is added between 19:00-04:30hrs on weekdays and all day Saturday, and an extra 20% is added on Sundays and bank holidays, in each case rounded up to the next highest multiple of 5 minutes.

In your case your journey is deemed to cover 13 zones, so that’s 190 minutes (210 at evenings/early mornings/Saturdays, and 230 on Sundays). If more than that amount of time elapses between touching in and touching out, you’ll be charged two maximum fares.

Slightly higher times are allowed for certan shorter journeys near central London and a few complications arise for non-numbered zones, but those aren’t relevant here.

MikeWh · 20 Aug 2018

mikesdeman said:
Using Oyster there are at least 2 fare options (but I believe 3 from memory). Tap in out and begining and end it's £3.20. If going via EUS then it's £7*. And I'm sure via WIJ is somewhere in between the two as you have to tap when you change although I cannot recall exact fare charged.

Via Willesden Junction is only more expensive if you also travel via West Hampstead.

mikesdeman said:
I have a couple of questions. Firstly am I correct about all of the fares (all off peak but I assume peak is same story)? Are they the same using contactless debit card? Secondly, Southern is the single worst service provider I have ever experienced. There is one train per hour between WFJ and CLJ and no matter what the issue it seems to be the first train to be cancelled. This often forces me to travel via EUS or WIJ which is far more expensive. Is there anyway to claim back the difference on a PAYG Oyster or even contactless? Thanks for your help.

*£7 this fare more often than not jumps to £13.20 which I am assuming it's because the taps fall outside NR|LU continuation time restrictions... Is this the reason?

As long as you travel via Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction you will pay the default fare. Touching the pink reader at Willesden Junction shouldn't change the fare charged.

mikesdeman said:
Hi causton, I believe I do need to tap at WIJ as the Oyster readers there state to tap of changing trains. Also last year I'm sure I remember getting a charge on my contactless card after not tapping at the interchange WIJ on the second LOG train to Clapham when my card was read by RP on board.

If you'd touched in at Watford Junction then an RPI check would not cause a new charge, whether or not you'd touched the pink readers at Willesden Junction, unless you'd taken a long time to get from Watford Junction (over 2.5 hours).

mikesdeman said:
I don't know what the pink readers are could you explain :/ but please see above RE tapping at WIJ.

Now this worries me. The pink readers are just Oyster pads on a stand coloured pink instead of yellow. If you touch them you will be fine, but you may well get charged differently if you instead touch the yellow readers on the gatelines without going through the gates. From memory there are no yellow validators on stands at Willesden Junction. Perhaps you could clarify where you are touching.

mikesdeman said:
Thanks for this great reply. The £13.20 may have been incorrectly remembered. Where can I find max allowed times? Also if you know, why is the fare more via WIJ? This isn't the fare reported on NR but from experience it is the one I'm charged if I tap when I change.

It would really help to be able to see your journey history. You won't be able to get the Oyster history as it is unregistered, but if you register your contactless card on the TfL website then you'll be able to see everything going back a year. Can you do that and paste screen shots of applicable journeys?

mikesdeman · 20 Aug 2018

island said:
The maximum journey time is 70 minutes plus 10 minutes for each new zone you visit during your journey. An extra 10% is added between 19:00-04:30hrs on weekdays and all day Saturday, and an extra 20% is added on Sundays and bank holidays, in each case rounded up to the next highest multiple of 5 minutes.

In your case your journey is deemed to cover 13 zones, so that’s 190 minutes (210 at evenings/early mornings/Saturdays, and 230 on Sundays). If more than that amount of time elapses between touching in and touching out, you’ll be charged two maximum fares.

Slightly higher times are allowed for certan shorter journeys near central London and a few complications arise for non-numbered zones, but those aren’t relevant here.

Thanks for that!

MikeWh said:
Via Willesden Junction is only more expensive if you also travel via West Hampstead.

As long as you travel via Clapham Junction and Willesden Junction you will pay the default fare. Touching the pink reader at Willesden Junction shouldn't change the fare charged.

If you'd touched in at Watford Junction then an RPI check would not cause a new charge, whether or not you'd touched the pink readers at Willesden Junction, unless you'd taken a long time to get from Watford Junction (over 2.5 hours).

Now this worries me. The pink readers are just Oyster pads on a stand coloured pink instead of yellow. If you touch them you will be fine, but you may well get charged differently if you instead touch the yellow readers on the gatelines without going through the gates. From memory there are no yellow validators on stands at Willesden Junction. Perhaps you could clarify where you are touching.

It would really help to be able to see your journey history. You won't be able to get the Oyster history as it is unregistered, but if you register your contactless card on the TfL website then you'll be able to see everything going back a year. Can you do that and paste screen shots of applicable journeys?

Hi MikwWH. Thanks for the reply. I have not long been traveling through North London and in the past only used Oyster for buses and direct gated stations so I haven't experienced pink touch readers in the past. The ones I am thinking of at WIJ are inside at the to of the stairs down to Bakerloo Line platforms and on the footbridge from upper platforms to lower.

I've registered my card but I haven't been through WIJ in last 8 weeks (quicker via EUS despite the cost!). I will try this evening as a test. I can't find the extra charge on my bank statement so I may have mistaken the change of transaction description for a penalty fair after the RPI check.

MikeWh · 20 Aug 2018

mikesdeman said:
The ones I am thinking of at WIJ are inside at the to of the stairs down to Bakerloo Line platforms and on the footbridge from upper platforms to lower.

Those are pink readers. They shouldn't change your charge, but that is why I'd like to see your journey history.

mikesdeman said:
I've registered my card but I haven't been through WIJ in last 8 weeks (quicker via EUS despite the cost!). I will try this evening as a test. I can't find the extra charge on my bank statement so I may have mistaken the change of transaction description for a penalty fair after the RPI check.

On the Oyster online site there is an option to add a new contactless card. If you do that you will then be able to see all journey and payment history for the last 12 months.

mikesdeman · 20 Aug 2018

MikeWh said:
Those are pink readers. They shouldn't change your charge, but that is why I'd like to see your journey history.

On the Oyster online site there is an option to add a new contactless card. If you do that you will then be able to see all journey and payment history for the last 12 months.

I have recently got a replacement debit card so unfortunately only got complete £7 or £3.20 fares on the current one. On the plus side found a couple of incomplete journeys on my new one which is great if I can get the refund for them! I am on my way through WIJ now so will post when my journey is complete.

mikesdeman · 20 Aug 2018

Ok tapped at: SUO(gate)>WIJ(pink)>WFJ(gate)
Was charged £3.20 so all good. Set my mind at rest. No idea why I remembered being charged more.

I sincerely appreciate all of the help and advice on the usefulness of registering my cards, journey times and fare advice. I do think it's incredibly unfair that if Southern cancel a service and I have to pay extra in order to stay on schedule, I can't claim the difference in fare- only wait to be delayed or deliberately take a route that will definitely make me late to get any refund.

Case in point- Southern:
2236 CLJ>WFJ (Milton Keynes Service) tonight cancelled.

2336 WFJ>CLJ (Clapham Junction Service) tonight cancelled.

Maybe more through the day. Always first train on the network to be cancelled despite only running one per hour.

Worst service.... Ever....

Both due to shortage of train staff. Imagine I closed my superstore due to shortage of checkout colleagues. Any reasonable manager would cancel one of the 4 fast trains per hour from X to Y rather than the one per hour from A to B (upon which a later B to A return journey relies). Or maybe I don't understand the complexity involved in reassigning train drivers or being responsible enough to recruit enough to run the service or make sure staff are sufficiently incentivised to come to work... :/

Oops ranty.

Thanks again for all of the support.

Hadders · 21 Aug 2018

Just playing devils advocate. Say I'm travelling from London to Birmingham with a cheaper 'via High Wycombe' ticket. Say Chiltern cancel the train, am I entitled to travel with more expensive Virgin from Euston for no additional fare?

I think most people would say no (unless it was the last train of the day). I could take the next Chiltern service and claim delay repay.

ForTheLoveOf · 21 Aug 2018

Hadders said:
I could take the next Chiltern service and claim delay repay.

Delay Repay doesn't apply on Chiltern, much like GWR! Only the older style Delay Compensation applies, with an exclusion for delays entirely outside the control of the rail industry.

Hadders · 21 Aug 2018

It’s the general principle i was trying to make. There will be other examples available.

mikesdeman · 21 Aug 2018

Hadders said:
It’s the general principle i was trying to make. There will be other examples available.

The consensus at least for my journey from the experienced users was that I could take a more expensive route but would have to pay the excess. Thereafter if I was late on this route then I could claim DelayRepay. If I was on time then I couldn't claim anything. Other option would be to wait for the next train on original ticket and assuming it made me late, claim DR.

causton · 21 Aug 2018

Hadders said:
Just playing devils advocate. Say I'm travelling from London to Birmingham with a cheaper 'via High Wycombe' ticket. Say Chiltern cancel the train, am I entitled to travel with more expensive Virgin from Euston for no additional fare?

If CSL2 is declared yes. London Overground/London Underground/London Northwestern Railway frequently accept tickets for the Southern service via Euston/Victoria, must be at least once or twice a week.

The disparity is that people with paper tickets are 'waved through' central London and the Underground but if you have Oyster or Contactless, you are charged the appropriate rate for the journey you actually made.

For example, when there is disruption on London Overground:

London Overground said:
Ticket Acceptance:
Oyster: Oyster & Contactless customers will be charged the appropriate fare for the services and zones they actually use. Compensation & Refunds: Please advise customers that if they experience a delay of more than 30 minutes they may be entitled to compensation. For more details, visit tfl.gov.uk and search for 'service delay refund'.
National Rail: Automatic ticket acceptance for National Rail ticket holders: Chiltern Railways, London Midland[sic], London Underground, Thameslink, and Southern. Ticket Acceptance has also been requested for London Buses.

infobleep · 21 Aug 2018

causton said:
If CSL2 is declared yes. London Overground/London Underground/London Northwestern Railway frequently accept tickets for the Southern service via Euston/Victoria, must be at least once or twice a week.

The disparity is that people with paper tickets are 'waved through' central London and the Underground but if you have Oyster or Contactless, you are charged the appropriate rate for the journey you actually made.

For example, when there is disruption on London Overground:

During one the recent strikes on South Western Railway, it was announced only paper tickets would be valid on the alternative buses routes, which I think may have included TfL buses from memory.

I think unless one regularly gets a cheaper journey using Oyster cards or similar, it's better to stick with paper.

Contactless/Oyster: Delays/Cancellations causing more expensive route

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