Are station-to-station journeys slower?
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GWR Class 800
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I tend to agree with what you have written here. The 800s were never meant to be used the way they now are but 802s were supposed to offer increased speed to the timetable down here in the south west. I know it's early days and it takes a while for everything to bed in (maybe once the entire operation is IET it will magically be quicker, i don't know?) but it does seem that any time benefits that we are supposed to see (electric doors and acceleration) will all be un done by the fact the trains can't get to top speed easily. Yes they may accelerate quicker from a start but if a train is slowed for whatever reason its wasting all the time it gained.
Time will tell. I want them to succeed because we're stuck with them now.
irish_rail
Established Member
Yes and the other factor that will add some journey time on is the splitting and joining of 5 car sets at Plymouth. I can certainly see some overall journey times being slower for example reading to Liskeard or bodmin. 9 car sets on the cornish trains would of helped a little in this respect but apparently they are not to be , and will generally not see use west of Plymouth. All in all coupled with the hopelessly uncomfortable seats a recipe for losing passengers and damaging the south west's already frail economy.
gordonjahn
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The politics behind electrification strategy at the moment is abysmal but, love them or loathe them, the class 800 moves the electrification case for south west (and to an extent Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Dunblane-Inverness) on considerably.
Pre-800, the investment required to electrify the SW (and north of Scotland) line(s) involved all the electrification costs PLUS rolling stock costs. With 800s in service, as current GWML electrification schemes complete, it should be possible to look again at extension of electrification and keep it under review so that where there are bridge projects / tunnel renewals / signalling schemes that can be economically combined with electrification projects, it can be built out and use trains that are already in service. Other factors - unreliability, inability to keep to time, capacity increases - are just as likely to drive the case for electrification that is easier to make with electric-capable stock already running.
The big prize would be completion of areas allowing the removal of the underfloor engines and corresponding lower track wear, but with the lifetime of these sets (30 years, is it?) to work towards this goal, things are - hopefully?!? - moving in the right direction.
Sean Emmett
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From my experience, the 800s have only been unleashed to the full 940hp up to around 30-40 mph then throttle down to the original 750hp.
The other vexed question is whether the other engines step up to the 940hp if an engine is out. Jury definitely out ib this, have seen some evidence of augmentation, but usually not.
It would be nice if DfT/Hitachi/GWR would confirm to stop all the speculation.
I was actually quite encouraged by the 802s yesterday. From the Taunton start they cleared Whiteball quicker than the previous week's HST, and achieved a good time to Exeter, beating the HST. See RPS website for details.
As drivers get used to them the stops will be smarter so start to stop times in Cornwall will improve to match standard HST performance.
For me yesterday confirmed just how underpowered the 800s are on diesel.
For what purpose? They have no trouble at all operating on the Cotswold Line - you know, the sort of place the 800s are supposed to run on diesel, as opposed to trying to keep up with HST timings on the GWML to Bristol Parkway, which they were never intended to do in the first place.
Assuming today's 05.28 from Hereford to Paddington was the booked 800, it left Hereford 11 late but was back to time at Moreton-in-Marsh on a service that does not have long dwell times for pathing reasons at the likes of Evesham, unlike some other services on the route. Whatever the traction, compliments to the driver and train manager for that performance through the Malvern Hills and up Chipping Campden bank, fitting in nine intermediate stops on the way.
D1009
Established Member
Sean was specifically referring to 802 performance on the West of England route, where claims have been made by GWR management of journey time reductions as a result of their introduction. I can only see this being possible through acceleration on the electrified part of the route, by removal of stops, or possibly by dwell time reduction. Having said that I'm hoping to soon see an end to this stupid practice of despatch staff having to touch HST door handles to make sure they are securely shut.
How exactly do these words
refer to 802 performance on the West of England line?
His previous post mentioned an 800 on a Paignton service over Whiteball summit in passing but given that the overwhelming majority of IET services in Devon and Cornwall will be Class 802s - a type ordered specifically with the stiff gradients of the West Country in mind - while 800s on diesel power will mostly working elsewhere on GWR, the question of whether or not the 800s are 'underpowered' - or more accurately, the way the engine and traction management systems are set up - is surely more relevant in the context of those routes than what one does on an occasional foray into Somerset.
Perhaps contemplate GWR's plans for the new West Country timetable to see where time savings will come - such as all Plymouth and Cornwall trains running non-stop between Reading and Taunton - and the the end of slam doors will indeed speed up station stops. The promised savings have never been massive, all in single figures, bar London-Penzance where a 14-minute saving was promised.
jyte
Member
I know by posting this I am guaranteed to start a debate about the RPS and its merits, and I fully accept you can't derive a pattern from a single result, but I thought that this RPS report (http://www.railperf.org.uk/index/siteforum-list-action?post=4424&highlight=#siteforum-message-4424) on 802 performance was interesting. As I am familiar with the route, I was quite surprised by the 46mph climb between Par and Bodmin Parkway - I've never seen an HST do that at less than 55, so I'm wondering if it [the 802] was following a restrictive aspect.
irish_rail
Established Member
No signal after pars section signal until treverrin tunnel at the top so wouldn't of been running on restrictive aspects. Another example of poor 802 performance on diesel.
irish_rail
Established Member
And reading that timing log as someone who signs the route (hsts only at present) , performance is well below that of an HST throughout. Couldn't even reach 110 on the b and h at any point?!!!! Also interesting to note it arrived 7 late into Plymouth, which suggests the awesome time savings in Cornwall caused by automatic doors will perhaps not materialise.......
Charlie M.
Member
I know you said nothing bad, so this is not directed at yourself.
We are all talking as in everyone who uses the train sits there with there speedometer open and moans that the speed is 3mph slower than the HST, that it accelerates at the same speed and things like that. Ultimately, people will benefit from a FASTER service. I don’t give a toss if they do not reach the same speed as fast on diesel, because they will ultimately make journeys faster. For lines like North and South Cotswolds they are the perfect train for diesel as they will never hit high speeds, they accelerate and break well and the part of the route that is more “high speed” is mostly electricified.
You will also never be able to gain a fair test by comparing two units: the driver could be slower, there could have been a signal ahead, there would be 100s of reasons.
These trains will generally be a benefit to the network in terms of performance and journey times.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Is that actually true, that the 9 car 802`s will virtually never see use west of Plymouth and can you provide confirmation of this.
I had my first ride on a 800 today. My regular commute is Castle Cary to Reading. Which I do 3 times a week.
Service was this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40191/2018/08/21/advanced
Positives
Negatives
Service was this one
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40191/2018/08/21/advanced
Positives
- Increased legroom over a HST ( I'm 6ft tall ).
- Interior lighting is softer it has more of a warm glow than the lighting on the HST.
- Interior window blinds very welcome with keeping out the low afternoon sun.
- Now normally when the service leaves, Paddington, Reading or Newbury late, in the continues to loose time, usually by the time we have reached Castle Cary albeit my un-scientific approach is that it can loose 10 minutes by this point. But today it felt like the 800 was recovering some of the lost time and we were only a couple of minutes late getting to Castle Cary.
- Acceleration feels faster and it to me felt like it pushed me back in the seat harder on initial acceleration than a HST
- The trolley service was frequent with it making a trip up and down after each station stop
- I dont think we were running on the electricity when it left Reading it felt that I could feel the engines startup through the coach floor vibrating before we left reading
- Seemed pretty quiet when running on Diesel, but I'm comparing that to a Voyager, 150, 159 or 165 DMU though...
Negatives
- Now I will admit that I thought the statement about the hard seats were exaggerated and they are not, the seats are very hard
- The seat backs are to upright and either my shoulders are being pressed into the bottom of the headrest or I end up slouching
- I was sat at a table of 4 and the table is higher than the HST, which felt awkward when doing a bit of work on my work laptop
Sean Emmett
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In the very limited 802 runs timed so far the superiority over 800 performance is readily apparent. At least 30-60s gained on each acceleration. Useful on any line with lots of stops and recovering from delays on the single line. Cotswolds perhaps?! We'll soon see when the 802s make an appearance there.
It is worth noting that the 802s were quicker to top Whiteball, Dainton and Hemerdon from Taunton, Newton Abbot and Plymouth respectively than the previous week's HST - despite the HST having got into its stride on those climbs.
Not sure what happened on the restart from Par or indeed Bodmin on the return. My notes say that the engine under my coach (B, 9 of 10) was re-started at Liskeard. Whether it was out for all of both sections I'm not sure. There was more obvious trouble with it on Lavington later on.
Start stop times may not look impressive but this was mainly down to slow approaches along each platform. This will surely improve with practice. How precise do the stops have to be?
Need to make it clear I rather like the IETs. OK the seats aren't what you'd call sumptious, but the greatet legroom and better view out more make up for it. And I have already bought far more coffees from an IET trolley than I ever bought from an HST buffet (ducks for cover...)
It is worth noting that the 802s were quicker to top Whiteball, Dainton and Hemerdon from Taunton, Newton Abbot and Plymouth respectively than the previous week's HST - despite the HST having got into its stride on those climbs.
Not sure what happened on the restart from Par or indeed Bodmin on the return. My notes say that the engine under my coach (B, 9 of 10) was re-started at Liskeard. Whether it was out for all of both sections I'm not sure. There was more obvious trouble with it on Lavington later on.
Start stop times may not look impressive but this was mainly down to slow approaches along each platform. This will surely improve with practice. How precise do the stops have to be?
Need to make it clear I rather like the IETs. OK the seats aren't what you'd call sumptious, but the greatet legroom and better view out more make up for it. And I have already bought far more coffees from an IET trolley than I ever bought from an HST buffet (ducks for cover...)
I was on 1P12 the 05:28 Hereford to Paddington this morning, between Oxford & Reading. Booked for a 9 car 800 but it was only 5 vice 9 today (800012).
ECS was supposed to pick up TM & Catering Crew from Newport but somehow got routed direct to Hereford at Maindy Jn. TM & Crew had to chase it to Hereford in a Taxi!
(Insert favourite ‘enter the clowns’ circus type music here ) hence the late start.Very good effort to be RT by M-in-M!
D1009
Established Member
The clue is in the word Yesterday, refers to his post #8214, only this morning in which he gave a detailed unbiassed report of his trip to Penzance and back. He's posted since, so if you want to keep on attacking him, I'm sure he can defend himself without my help.
D1009
Established Member
Once GWR's detailed plans have been made public, I will definitely contemplate them. In the meantime are you able to tell me exactly where that 14 minute time saving comes from, given there are already trains which run non stop between Reading and Taunton, and even Reading and Exeter?
irish_rail
Established Member
My problem with this is that at present stations in Cornwall are timetabled on average 2 minutes for station stops. In reality HSTsoften take a little longer but the timetable says 2 mintues. Is the new IET timetable really going to be able to offer 1 minute stops reliably throughout Cornwall? ? I just don't think that realistic. The minute anyone needs assistance or has extra luggage (extremely common in cornwall) that one minute stop goes out the window. I just don't think in practice there will be much actual time saving on the booked timetable.
There will be no planned attachments or detachments of 802’s at Plymouth until at least December. All diagrams show double 802’s to and from Penzance. 9 car 800’s are rumoured to be working services to / from Cornwall from next year.
Try reading my initial post again. I was not "attacking him", I was commenting on the proposition that the Class 800s are "underpowered", not on any other words appearing in the sentence I quoted, or anything said in previous posts about the Class 802.
The performance of the Class 800 on yesterday's 05.28 from Hereford suggests that they are not exactly underpowered for operation on diesel in the places they are going to be working most services - which won't be to Devon, where use of 800s will be limited - and while the 1 in 100 of Chipping Campden bank and some 1 in 80 and a short bit of 1 in 70 through the Malverns are not Dainton bank, or as long and sustained an uphill slog as Whiteball, they are not easy work either.
What is this problem with the idea that power doors can speed up despatch, thus cutting end-to-end times?
For those of us who use the Cotswold Line - a place rather like Cornwall, with a series of closely-spaced stations - we have had this demonstrated for many years by the mix of rolling stock in use - HSTs, 180s, Turbos and now 800s. Guess which type takes longest to get back on the move. I expect the same can be observed in Cornwall when it comes to a Voyager's dwell time compared with an HST.
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ThinController
Member
One of the odd things about the GWR 800s (on the Hereford to Paddington route, at least) is those awful Stepford Wives style pre-recorded announcements. They get endlessly repeated in that sinister, robotic style and quite often have the wrong information in them! The other day, it announced the destination as Hereford (when it was Paddington). This caused some anxiety in the less regular travelers and prompted and apology from the train manager. Then a few mins later, the same announcement occurred again!
Surely that must be trivially easy to fix?!
(to be honest, I find the recent fad of having tons of announcements really quite annoying. Such as telling you not to forget to take your belongings with you! Seriously?? Are we all imbeciles?)
Surely that must be trivially easy to fix?!
(to be honest, I find the recent fad of having tons of announcements really quite annoying. Such as telling you not to forget to take your belongings with you! Seriously?? Are we all imbeciles?)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Some TOCs seem to be quite lazy or unthinking in choosing voices for autoannouncers - my favourite now is the "happy Northern" voice on Northern's 158s, though I also don't mind the properly "Sathern" one on GTR's Electrostars. At least it's not Annie, though! 
(Or worse, the rude, clipped TPE one)
(Or worse, the rude, clipped TPE one)
Fearless
Member
Quite so, Thin Controller, quite so. My second journey on an 800 was meant to be from Didcot to Nailsea on a Padd-WSM service. However, on arrival at Didcot we were told that it would terminate at Bristol (which it did), and yet the info on the screens and in the recorded announcements said it was going to Taunton, which was never the case in the first place. Every announcement had to be followed by one from the TM apologising for the wrong info. And no it wasn't easy to fix - they had to phone Hitachi, because they run the info, not the train crew. That's what's imbecilic!
As for taking all our belongings with us, just point out that most of our belongings are actually at home...
The announcement that makes me want to rebel is the "mind the gap between the train and the platform edge". Really? Makes me want to try falling down it, just to see what it's like. C'mon. (OK, I know it's to cover the railway's back in case of accident litigation. Sigh.)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I think it's worth saying that when the gap is larger (such as the vast 1ft+ chasm at Clapham Jn P17) or the step higher than usual, or there's something really unusual like stepping *up* from the train like on parts of the Bakerloo. But normally it's just one of those extra bits of wibble that just get ignored.
ThinController
Member
@Fearless - hah. Yes, indeed. Most of our stuff is at home in any case. I guess I just hate being treated like a complete idiot by some ass-covering, health and safety obsessed minor functionary in head office. But I fear this is getting off topic...
I suppose I was really saying that the super high-tech Hitachi trains appear to have some elements which are, in fact, super low tech (in terms of actual performance)
I suppose I was really saying that the super high-tech Hitachi trains appear to have some elements which are, in fact, super low tech (in terms of actual performance)
samuelmorris
Established Member
GA were lobbied by a local users' group to add such announcements after a PTI incident a couple of years back, so I wouldn't assume it's definitely a management decision to have those announcements. The one time I travelled on an 800 though, the PIS was wrong, the service was being terminated early at Bristol due to lack of staff but the announcements about its original destination kept coming. They were not manually corrected. I imagine a few people may have been in for a shock when they reached Bristol.
swt_passenger
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“The boy who cried wolf” - that’s exactly why they should bin the warning except where it is absolutely required.
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