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Report suggests vaping on buses and trains "should be considered"

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Bletchleyite

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The problem is that we don't know if it is or isn
't safe, since vaping is such a recent development - there won't be any 20, 30, 40 year randomised studies yet.

It is however utterly antisocial, and it really shouldn't take a ban to make it clear that to do so (a) in any enclosed space, or (b) right next to a doorway through which others may pass, is simply rude and obnoxious behaviour, unless you KNOW the others present definitely do not object.

That it does take a ban just says a lot about quite a lot of people who partake.

Mind you, there are enough parents who seem to like to impress on their kids that listening to music or films out loud in public is acceptable...
 

najaB

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It is however utterly antisocial, and it really shouldn't take a ban to make it clear...
I agree, however it's a basic principle of a liberal democracy that things aren't banned unless they do provable harm to others (or incite others to do harm).
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree, however it's a basic principle of a liberal democracy that things aren't banned unless they do provable harm to others (or incite others to do harm).

I don't think that's actually true. Things get banned because they are unpleasant to others, not just because they cause physical harm. Certainly on private property. Or put differently, you can do what you like unless it has a significant and easily avoidable adverse effect on others.

For instance, while smoking outside buildings on private land is not illegal, many organisations have banned it because smokers are too lazy and inconsiderate to move away from the door and from openable windows to do so, and most of them are also too lazy and inconsiderate to pick up their litter, too.

Edit: actually, littering is a good example - it doesn't really cause *harm* if all you're dropping is a piece of plastic or paper (that isn't of the kind that could ensnare an animal), but it's ugly and antisocial.
 

najaB

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Things get banned because they are unpleasant to others, not just because they cause physical harm.
Harm isn't only immediate or directly physical. We ban loud music at night because people have a right to uninterrupted rest. A DTL vaper could be said to be doing harm if they are puffing out large clouds of vapour which, for example, cause asthmatics breathing difficulty. But that wouldn't apply to a MTL vaper since there is very little (if any) in the way of clouds of vapour.

If, however, passive vaping is found to be a danger in the same way as passive smoking then even MTL vaping would be a fair target for banning on 'danger to others' grounds.
 

Swanny200

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It's like the smoking in cars thing, apparently it is against the law if you are caught smoking with someone under 18 in the car with you. How many times really has it been enforced by the police, I probably would bet hardly ever, the police have so much on their hands right now that they find it hard to enforce it, unlike mobile phones at the wheel.

It will get even worse if vapers are added to that list.

Half of the smoking ban notices are ignored, wasn't there a certain distance from the premises that you were supposed to be smoking, how many times do you see that enforced, especially when the ashtrays are put on the wall next to the entrances.

I have no issue if for instance there was a rule to open a smoking pub, you know the dangers... it is a smoking pub, so there will be smoking and therefore more of a hazard to you.

It works for cigar shops and pipe shops as said before.
 

thenorthern

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It works for cigar shops and pipe shops as said before.

The exemption is for sampling cigars or pipe tobacco and not normal cigarettes, they aren't like the old days of smoky pubs. In the United States and some countries in Europe they have Cigar Bars where its essentially a bar to smoke cigars and in many countries exempt from any smoking bans.
 

Swanny200

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That is true, as well as vaping, I will admit myself and my wife do enjoy good cigars on occasion, we went to Newcastle last week and in one of the restaurants went upstairs to the open air smoking section and had a couple. There is a couple of cigar shops here and in Liverpool I know that there is a cigar bar that has been opened a year and is doing a pretty good trade, think you can smoke indoors in that one too.

It is advertised as a cigar bar, so I wouldn't imagine non-smokers would just waltz in there if they were concerned about their health.
 

thenorthern

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That is true, as well as vaping, I will admit myself and my wife do enjoy good cigars on occasion, we went to Newcastle last week and in one of the restaurants went upstairs to the open air smoking section and had a couple. There is a couple of cigar shops here and in Liverpool I know that there is a cigar bar that has been opened a year and is doing a pretty good trade, think you can smoke indoors in that one too.

It is advertised as a cigar bar, so I wouldn't imagine non-smokers would just waltz in there if they were concerned about their health.

There are a couple of tobacco shops like that which are legal on technical grounds because customers are "sampling" cigars/pipe tobacco but from memory half of all revenue at such stores has to come from loose tobacco or cigars and not standard cigarettes. It's also illegal to smoke standard cigarettes in such places so you couldn't turn up at one and light up a pack of Mayfair.

As you say though non-smokers are unlikely to go in there particularly if they are attached to tobacco shops.
 

Swanny200

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There are a couple of tobacco shops like that which are legal on technical grounds because customers are "sampling" cigars/pipe tobacco but from memory half of all revenue at such stores has to come from loose tobacco or cigars and not standard cigarettes. It's also illegal to smoke standard cigarettes in such places so you couldn't turn up at one and light up a pack of Mayfair.

As you say though non-smokers are unlikely to go in there particularly if they are attached to tobacco shops.

Correct as stated, the cigar shop for instance here only sells from memory 2 brands of cigarettes, the rest are all cigars, but then you have certain places that only do cigars and whisky, the bar in Liverpool has a cigar shop right next door owned by the same company so that is probably why they are allowed to do it, especially if there are internal doors between the two.
 

fowler9

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Vaping stinks as much as smoking or going nuts with aftershave. It should be banned from enclosed public spaces.
 

Butts

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There are a couple of tobacco shops like that which are legal on technical grounds because customers are "sampling" cigars/pipe tobacco but from memory half of all revenue at such stores has to come from loose tobacco or cigars and not standard cigarettes. It's also illegal to smoke standard cigarettes in such places so you couldn't turn up at one and light up a pack of Mayfair.

As you say though non-smokers are unlikely to go in there particularly if they are attached to tobacco shops.

Not suprised regarding Mayfair Cigarettes - cheap crap !! have you tasted them ?

Must be B&H Gold or a similar Premium Brand to match the ambience of such an establishment !!
 

thenorthern

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Being under the age of 30 I seem to be in the most common age range e-cigs where its seen as stylish and cool (no I don't use them). Unfortunately however this means I regularly hear stories from about how vaping is "not as dangerous as smoking", "95% safer than tobacco" and even some who will go as far to claim that vaping is healthy and good for you.

From personal experience the most common age group that I have asked not to vape on public transport are people under the age of 30 on the Manchester Metrolink and who normally respond with "its not smoking its vaping" for which I point to the sign saying vaping is prohibited.

Not suprised regarding Mayfair Cigarettes - cheap crap !! have you tasted them ?

Must be B&H Gold or a similar Premium Brand to match the ambience of such an establishment !!

I haven't tried them I'm not a smoker. I only used Mayfair as an example of a cigarette that is smoked for the nicotine rush rather than the flavour. Rather like people who drink real ale mostly drink it because they like the taste but people who drink Fosters only drink it to get drunk.
 

Condor7

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Watching television dramas you would be forgiven for thinking that there is still a large percentage of the population in the UK that still smoke as so many leading characters are depicted as smokers. The reality however is that 84% of us now don’t smoke, and that was based on figures from two years ago so is quite likely to be higher. So we are only talking about a very small percentage of the population and maybe vaping has helped this, but it follows that as smoking becomes more and more a minority pass time the number of people needing to vape will decline, so why is it even being considered in the first place?
 

furnessvale

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I have no issue if for instance there was a rule to open a smoking pub, you know the dangers... it is a smoking pub, so there will be smoking and therefore more of a hazard to you.
That would open a very large loophole. I remember that, before the complete ban, pubs were given the opportunity to have a voluntary code of conduct where they had non smoking areas.

Every pub had a small sign in the window stating its smoking policy. I never saw one that said anything other than, "Smoking allowed throughout".
 

Swanny200

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That would open a very large loophole. I remember that, before the complete ban, pubs were given the opportunity to have a voluntary code of conduct where they had non smoking areas.

Every pub had a small sign in the window stating its smoking policy. I never saw one that said anything other than, "Smoking allowed throughout".

Some of the initial consultation originally said that if they served food then there would be no smoking, otherwise there would be some relaxation of the rules that as long as there was no food served on the premises that they would consider having pubs for smoking.

My idea was along the lines of a normal pub, no food served, just drinks, there might not be any want for it, it could end up raking in money but with so many pubs closing, there has to be a way of keeping them open.

I remember for a while the smoking ban and cheap supermarket alcohol was blamed on pubs closing as they just ended up buying booze and going home where they could smoke in the house.
 

Bletchleyite

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That would open a very large loophole. I remember that, before the complete ban, pubs were given the opportunity to have a voluntary code of conduct where they had non smoking areas.

Every pub had a small sign in the window stating its smoking policy. I never saw one that said anything other than, "Smoking allowed throughout".

'Spoons banned it before they were required to, but that could well have just been a bit of cheap publicity as they knew it was coming.
 

Butts

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'Spoons banned it before they were required to, but that could well have just been a bit of cheap publicity as they knew it was coming.

Think they quickly backtracked on loss of business, as you say an experiment before the ban came in.
 

underbank

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I have no issue if for instance there was a rule to open a smoking pub, you know the dangers... it is a smoking pub, so there will be smoking and therefore more of a hazard to you.

You may not have an issue, but various workers who have to go into those premises may well have! It may be "voluntary" for customers and bar staff, but not for meter readers, workmen, delivery drivers, accountants, inspectors, sales staff, etc etc.
 

muz379

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For me, the most significant reason (among others) why I don't think that vaping should be permitted on public transport (ideally in law but certainly not under company policy) is because it could reduce the efficacy of the actual smoking ban.

For example, imagine you are the bus driver and a passenger comes over to complain that someone is smoking a tobacco on the bus. You lock up your cab, come to the back of the bus and can smell the smoke.

"Excuse me Sir, we do not allow smoking on this bus. Could you extinguish that please."
"I'm not smoking, I'm vaping. That's allowed isn't it?"
"It is, but I believe you are smoking. I can smell the smoke."
"Nope, it's definitely not smoke. I'm vaping."
"But it smells very strongly like real smoke to me. I will have to ask you to leave, Sir, if you refuse to stop."
"I'm not doing anything wrong. Your company policy clearly permits vaping on this bus. I won't leave."

What do you do? Call the police? Cancel the bus and inconvenience all of the other passengers? Or do nothing and continue, allowing the person smoking to flout the law and put the health of other passengers at risk, resulting in the inevitable complaints?
Quite , you already get enough arguments from people vaping when the prohibition is pointed out to them .

There's simple things, like reviewing this distance children are expected to walk to school (currently up to 3 miles for 8 year olds), thats been agreed need reviewing yet MP's haven't and it's taken them 9 years and counting.

As such I wouldn't hold it much hope for something which splits opinion.

I do however suspect that the tobacco company lobby is slightly more powerful than tired 8 year olds who have to walk 3 miles a day to school . And in our political system the more powerful a lobby , the bigger priority given to its concerns .
 

Bletchleyite

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I do however suspect that the tobacco company lobby is slightly more powerful than tired 8 year olds who have to walk 3 miles a day to school . And in our political system the more powerful a lobby , the bigger priority given to its concerns .

If more kids *did* walk 3 miles to school they would be a lot fitter and the obesity problem would be reduced. Though I could see sense in reducing it to 2 to avoid excessively early starts.
 

Swanny200

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If more kids *did* walk 3 miles to school they would be a lot fitter and the obesity problem would be reduced. Though I could see sense in reducing it to 2 to avoid excessively early starts.
Wiltshire council originally wanted me and my two kids to walk on a major A road to take my children to school, this A road having grass verge for about half of the 2 mile distance and not many places to cross inbetween traffic travelling at 65 miles an hour, yes it works in some respects but not in all respects.
 

The Ham

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If more kids *did* walk 3 miles to school they would be a lot fitter and the obesity problem would be reduced. Though I could see sense in reducing it to 2 to avoid excessively early starts.

What tends to happen though is that the children are driven to school making obesity worse.

Whilst of the rules were in keeping with placing policy (2km/1.25 miles walking 5km/3 miles cycling - well a mix of walking/cycling) then it would result in more children cycling rather than being driven.

There's a petition calling for this here:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/224790

3 miles is for over 8 year old, other children (including those who are still 4 in year R) are required to walk 2 miles.
 

fowler9

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Have you turned to the dark side and given up ? - though you liked the odd tab.
Ha ha. No mate, I still smoke. Just don't like people smoking where they shouldn't as it gives us a bad name, plus I'm not actually a fan of the smell unless I am having a beer and a cig. The smell of vaping however turns my stomach. Loads of sickly sweet vapour, almost knocks me as sick as the smell of weed.
 

najaB

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The smell of vaping however turns my stomach.
There isn't 'a smell' of vaping - there are a multitude of different scented vaping fluids (not all 'sickly sweet') and some which have no added scent at all.
 

Bletchleyite

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There isn't 'a smell' of vaping - there are a multitude of different scented vaping fluids (not all 'sickly sweet') and some which have no added scent at all.

The vast majority of vapers seem to use the type that smell and taste like someone has set a bag of sweetened popcorn on fire, and it is utterly, utterly vile.
 

Bletchleyite

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Fixed that for you.

OK, so how do you easily codify and enforce a ban on that kind of vaping indoors but not other kinds of vaping?

The only idea I can think of is a "vape standard" codification for professionally made and certified devices and juices, which would be clearly marked with that codification, and only those would be legally used indoors.
 
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