cjmillsnun
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No they got converted to VP185s
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Poll: What are your suggestions for the future redundant HST sets?
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43096
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Valenta engines and Marston coolers. I asked specifically about the Mirrlees MB190 engine.
cjmillsnun
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Ok fair one. I didn’t think of the short lived Mirrlees. I think they should pass on that and concentrate on easily available engines (Vals, MTU and VP185)
tbtc
Veteran Member
Nice idea but how do you plan to amend the XC route to cope with trains that can't accelerate as well as Voyagers?
For example, the Birmingham - Leeds - Edinburgh train (currently ex Reading/ Southampton due to the Derby blockade, but normally ex Plymouth) passes Aldwarke Junction north of Rotherham at xx:30, getting to Leeds half an hour later.
At xx:34, the Northern stopper gets out of the Rotherham loop and onto the mainline at Aldwarke, stopping at every station to Leeds, taking around fifty five minutes to reach Leeds.
Run the XC service with trains unable to accelerate from Sheffield on time and you'll find them stuck behind the Northern stopper (as can happen when XC have been delayed further south), suddenly your train is arriving in Leeds half an hour late. And good luck fighting for a path out of Leeds with your delayed train, over the busy section towards Neville Hill.
Ah, but why not delay the Northern stopper to accommodate the slower XC services? Well, these are carefully timed to cross at Rotherham with the Hull - Sheffield stoppers (due to the single track Holmes Chord). Run the stopper at other times and you'll bump into Kings Cross - Leeds services north of Moorthorpe (given that they are about ten minutes faster than the Northern service over this bit of route, you have to be careful about when you let the Northern service onto the main line).
And this is just one local example of one place where an XC service is going to get into trouble if you run it with "slightly slower stock". See also the route north of Bristol (where XC can get from Temple Meads to the junction outside Gloucester in about half an hour, compared to the GWR stopper that takes almost fifty minutes), so adding a minute here and a minute there to accommodate slowly accelerating stock is going to mean getting regularly stuck behind a Bristol - Gloucester stopper. Or maybe the frequent Cross City services in the West Midlands, or the Paignton stoppers from Newton Abbott to Exeter, or the ScotRail stoppers from Drem to Waverley or something as delicate as finding paths through New Street...
There's no simple way of tinkering with the XC timetable to accommodate long HSTs (and that's assuming that we can get sufficient Mk3s upgraded to be sufficiently accessible for service in 2020 - given the problems with upgrading old trains I'd not be hopeful...).
Nice idea, but I'm out.
JohnMcL7
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Thanks for the information, how many 43's do they have? If there are spare power cars would they be suitable to replace the 37's on the other test trains?
sprinterguy
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They have three power cars, 43013/014/062. Two in use at any given time and one spare.
richard1976
Member
Send an extra 2 sets to scotrail to replace the MK2 coaches on the Fife circle line
318266
Member
Keep them as they are, add PRM mods and shorten them to 5 cars, renumber them into a new Class 260 range, and the remaining to become either sleeper stock or part of a loco-hauled set.
Rail Blues
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318266
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Sleeper stock: for reviving old slpeeper routes
Part of a loco-hauled set: To replace ageing Mark 2 stock on non-preservation/charter routes
Part of a loco-hauled set: To replace ageing Mark 2 stock on non-preservation/charter routes
Anything (and I mean anything) to keep them away from the cutters torch it seems.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I must admit it has long surprised me that for reasons of commonality that GWR didn't just stick one on either end of the Sleeper stock (with some kind of converter for the ETH). But now their HSTs are going there's no real benefit of doing this.
Most of your examples are of express services mixing with stopping locals. I cannot believe that a limited-stop long-distance service cannot fit in with stopping trains as they pass through the conurbations, even if the "express" isn't up to latest HP-per-Ton (MW/T?) standard and the stoppers are electric-powered rockets!
I have faith in the timetable planners... after all there are a few HST paths operating in the current timetable.
Rail Blues
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Do you really think there's a market for new or long abandoned sleeper services? Or is this a case of getting things arse about face, thinking what can we possibly do to save a favourite piece of rolling stock from the hot kiss of Booth's cutting torch?
Even with a massive expansion of sleeper services, what about the shortened sets you mention, what work do you forsee for them?
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bramling
Veteran Member
Certainly scope to make up a few trains to supplement DMU fleets where practicable. I’d also hope to see a few sets in better condition stored again in case there is a need for extra DMUs over the next few years. Naturally the sticking point is accessibility so let’s help the conversions start coming a bit more smoothly and perhaps cheaper.
Apart from that no doubt some will be scrapped - there really isn’t much point in paying for storage if there is no prospect of further use (and yes I do find it rather painful to write that!).
tbtc
Veteran Member
Agree with both of the above - people on here are desperate to avoid their favourite 1970s trains from becoming razor blades - coming up with all sorts of speculative services because they must somehow save the HST.
Let's ignore the fact that TPE weren't allowed to introduce "inaccessible" trains (the "Pretendolino") and assume that we can upgrade Mk3s very quickly/cheaply because we can't conceive of a world without the HST.
Yes, my examples are of express services mixing with stopping locals, because that's how the railway is - if an XC service gets to a junction ahead of a stopper then it'll maintain its timings - if the XC service can't meet the current timetable then it'll be delayed up to half an hour because there's nowhere to overtake (be that in Devon, Gloucestershire, West Midlands, South Yorkshire, East Lothian etc).
Currently, limited-stop long-distance services *can* fit in with stopping trains as they pass through the conurbations, because the timetable has been designed around that happening. Introduce poorly accelerating trains on those limited-stop long-distance services and watch the timetable collapse.
If you are the main TOC in a region (e.g. ScotRail) then you can rejig your timetable to accommodate introduction of HSTs - if you are a TOC with only one or two trains per hour through a region (e.g. XC) then you can't expect all of the local TOCs to rip up their timetable to accommodate you.
I get that people want to keep HSTs, but "timetabling that route slightly slower" is not an option on XC - however much people want to believe.
(and, again, that's ignoring the problem of upgrading dozens of carriages which isn't going to happen any time soon)
Which kind of services though?
Given how sluggish HSTs are at accelerating, they aren't designed for stop/start services.
LOL The Irony
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I made this thread yesterday with the hope of getting people's opinion's. I didn't expect the 442 to pop up...Oh joy.
Another fantasy "what shall we do with HSTs" thread.
“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results.”
43096
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I have to admire your optimism!!!!
The thread has degenerated - as expected - into the usual ill-thought through posts.
Rail Blues
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Oh joy.
Another fantasy "what shall we do with HSTs" thread.
I cannot help myself, I am drawn to these wibble threads like a nerdy moth to a flame, but inevitably find myself incredulous and exasperated within a minute.
Rail Blues
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I believe the moon is made of green cheese and that 9/11 was the work of shape-shifting lizard men. What either you or I think is immaterial, we have to give evidence.
If you think XC services could accommodate more HSTs, demonstrate how the timetables of multiple TOCs can be accommodated within this shift.
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