LNER: why such a small unreserved coach?

cuccir · 22 Aug 2018

bramling said:
Surely one could construct a similar argument to say that every seat should be unreserved and it’s a case of first come first served.

I don’t need to book a space for my car to use a road, and the train should be the same. It’s simply not always practicable to plan, and nor should it be, so why should those paying the most for this flexibility then get hit a second time by finding most seats reserved? Of course if trains had enough capacity and weren’t stuffed full of cheap advance ticket holders...

The converse argument is that those on Advance tickets HAVE to use that train - if it is busy, they have no choice but to travel.

Whereas a holder of a flexible ticket can wait. They can decide a seat is important to them and travel at a non-peak time- a 500-reservations train is not representative of the norm on LNER - or they can choose to use the busiest train and face the possibility of standing.

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dk1 · 22 Aug 2018

atraindriver said:
It seems to work perfectly well in Germany, as that is how it is done there.
Buy a DB Sparpreis ticket and you are tied to a specific train (or specific trains plural if the journey involves connections), but if you want a guaranteed seat then you pay €4 reservation fee on top (which covers all the seat reservations for that single journey).

If I buy an AP ticket in Germany I always request NO seat reservation as I will be travelling on FIP coupons with that person so that way we are free to sit together. Ive always liked that option. As someone used to staff travel for over 30 years I cannot abide seat reservations so suits me just fine.

Only thing I will say is that DB rarely have as overcrowded IC services as the UK.

dk1 · 22 Aug 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
EMT and GA count in my book - they are both ex-Intercity franchises. Though GA's 'intercity services', much like the SWR Exeter services, can really be put in the 'not quite either' category.

There is basically no difference in GAs mainline service now than when it was INTERCITY apart that they no longer have restaurants but then neither did many trains then. Still LHCS, got reserveable seats, a buffet counter service (plus trolley on 24 trains per day) & two 1st class carriages. Even the new Stadler fleet will offer much of the same.

modernrail · 22 Aug 2018

Totally agree with the OP. I use the trains a lot. If you are going to reserve most of the train then you don't charge last minute folks the same as a flight to New York. Simples. To make matters worse - I think I am right in saying that there are no plugs in the buffet carriage. Isn't it just the old restaurant car turned around? You also get the queue for the buffet right next to you. If you are going to charge top rates you should hand out instant refunds for those who have paid over a certain price left standing.

The problem shows up the stupid position we have got to where some advance fares are just too cheap compared to the open fare. Does any other country have any where near this disparity? There should be 2 sets of fares for each train. Early booker and later booker. Late booker fares should be no more than double early booker fares. One carriage should be unreserved for on the day tickets. I can accept the logic of a peak and off-peak. If anything the logical thing is to guarantee seat bookings for the higher fare, not the lower one. This system would also stop the undignified sight of people who have missed their booked train for a perfectly good reason becoming very upset when they are told they need a new open ticket at a hideous cost. It is just inhuman to run a system like this where you can wipe out a student or older person's entire income for a month because of one missed connection. As for not just charging the difference between the original ticket and the new one - why? Again, disgraceful behaviour that we should have risen up against a long time ago. We claim to have lots of backbone and want to be outside the EU because we are marvellous, yet we can't show any evidence of holding our Government to account on really simple things. Dreamland.

If I am being completely honest, I also get annoyed at the sight of retired baby boomers who can book well in advance and pay next to nothing sit in reserved seats to have a natter whilst I am paying silly amounts and then sitting on the floor to do a load of work to stand any chance of paying the hideous mortgage delivered to me as a result of the complete political inaction of said baby boomers - until of course they decided to get active and vote against their own children and the majority of the working population. Can the position with seat reservations really be extrapolated like this I hear you say? Yes it bloody can, far more than the situation with bananas or the colour of our sodding passports was by said baby boomers feeding themselves absolute dross courtesy of the Daily Fail.

The way I understand it works on WCML is that you hit a certain point and then it won't allow seat reservations any more. At least with that system you know you are in for a fair fight and you can turn up as early as possible and pull all the tricks you know of to try and get a seat.

theironroad · 22 Aug 2018

yorkie said:
It would be impossible to implement that idea without huge problems.

Websites need to be clear about the charges, and for reservable long distance trains you cannot justify charging a hidden extra for a seat, so booking sites would surely have to include the cost of a seat by default.

It would also cause problems on tickets that require changes en route. How would you handle a St Ives to Great Yarmouth journey? Do you charge two fees, to cover St Erth to Paddington and Liverpool Street to Norwich? Or one fee for the journey, but the customer may be unhappy having to stand on the non reservable trains.

I can see people complaining to the retailer when it's nothing to do with them.

It is doable during the booking process just as low cost airlines allow a choice of seat at extra price or take a random seat they select for you. The only difference is that on the train if you do not pre book and pay for a seat then there is a possibility of having to stand. A booking engine would be quite capable of charging for 2 different legs or maybe offer a discount on the second leg if booked at the same time. Just like LCC it would also be possible to not book a seat at time of purchasing the ticket but going back to manage the booking later and then purchasing a seat reservation.

theironroad · 22 Aug 2018

Skymonster said:
To my mind the fundamental problem is that those paying the highest fares (flexible, walk-on) are those least likely to be able to find an unreserved seat. It is ironic (and I believe fundamentally wrong) that a traveller paying several hundred pounds for a trip from Edinburgh to London (or anywhere also for that matter) is denied a seat while a customer who has paid maybe 1/10th of the full fare can travel in comfort for the whole journey.

Widespread availability of cheap advance tickets with their compulsory reservations have exacerbated the problem. I believe that advance tickets should carry a compulsory specific train restriction (as they do now) but not a mandatory reservation for a seat on that train - and a [small] additional charge be levied if an advance customer also wants a seat reservation. That way, customers with advance tickets would still have to use the booked train, but some would not buy a seat reservation and instead would elect to take their chances along with the passengers seeking more flexibility. The end result would be fewer reserved seats and more opportunities for walk-ons to get a seat, while still ensuring that advance ticket holders were on the train they'd booked.

Understandable. My pet peeve is that those who book on line get free WiFi but if you turn up and go and probably pay more for the ticket, you have to pay for WiFi.

RLBH · 22 Aug 2018

theironroad said:
It is doable during the booking process just as low cost airlines allow a choice of seat at extra price or take a random seat they select for you. The only difference is that on the train if you do not pre book and pay for a seat then there is a possibility of having to stand. A booking engine would be quite capable of charging for 2 different legs or maybe offer a discount on the second leg if booked at the same time. Just like LCC it would also be possible to not book a seat at time of purchasing the ticket but going back to manage the booking later and then purchasing a seat reservation.

If you wanted to get really clever, you could do demand management through reservation charges and keep the underlying fares the same. Of course you'd get slaughtered by the media for doing it, but it does make sense!

mrmartin · 22 Aug 2018

modernrail said:
Totally agree with the OP. I use the trains a lot. If you are going to reserve most of the train then you don't charge last minute folks the same as a flight to New York. Simples. To make matters worse - I think I am right in saying that there are no plugs in the buffet carriage. Isn't it just the old restaurant car turned around? You also get the queue for the buffet right next to you. If you are going to charge top rates you should hand out instant refunds for those who have paid over a certain price left standing.

The problem shows up the stupid position we have got to where some advance fares are just too cheap compared to the open fare. Does any other country have any where near this disparity? There should be 2 sets of fares for each train. Early booker and later booker. Late booker fares should be no more than double early booker fares. One carriage should be unreserved for on the day tickets. I can accept the logic of a peak and off-peak. If anything the logical thing is to guarantee seat bookings for the higher fare, not the lower one. This system would also stop the undignified sight of people who have missed their booked train for a perfectly good reason becoming very upset when they are told they need a new open ticket at a hideous cost. It is just inhuman to run a system like this where you can wipe out a student or older person's entire income for a month because of one missed connection. As for not just charging the difference between the original ticket and the new one - why? Again, disgraceful behaviour that we should have risen up against a long time ago. We claim to have lots of backbone and want to be outside the EU because we are marvellous, yet we can't show any evidence of holding our Government to account on really simple things. Dreamland.

If I am being completely honest, I also get annoyed at the sight of retired baby boomers who can book well in advance and pay next to nothing sit in reserved seats to have a natter whilst I am paying silly amounts and then sitting on the floor to do a load of work to stand any chance of paying the hideous mortgage delivered to me as a result of the complete political inaction of said baby boomers - until of course they decided to get active and vote against their own children and the majority of the working population. Can the position with seat reservations really be extrapolated like this I hear you say? Yes it bloody can, far more than the situation with bananas or the colour of our sodding passports was by said baby boomers feeding themselves absolute dross courtesy of the Daily Fail.

The way I understand it works on WCML is that you hit a certain point and then it won't allow seat reservations any more. At least with that system you know you are in for a fair fight and you can turn up as early as possible and pull all the tricks you know of to try and get a seat.

I agree entirely with this. I had loads of work to do but without a seat so had to stand which is impossible to do any serious work from.

WCML is much better, I've never really had to stand since 11 coach introduction.

Does anyone know what %age seat uplift the IEP fleet will enable?

Spartacus · 22 Aug 2018

Helvellyn said:
What makes matters worse is people on Advance Tickets (but also some flexible ones) who don't occupy their booked seats. Those without reservations are then left trying to work out if a "reserved" seat is actually then free or not.

Trouble is that if you book something flexible in advance you generally need to specify one train or another, and even if you go for the most likely one you'll be travelling on, there might still be a far greater chance of you travelling on some other service. Does drive me nuts sometime when people don't go in their reserved seats though, deciding to plump for an unreserved bay of 4 instead of the airline seats they have. It's not a problem really if the train is quiet (which is increasingly rare), or if (presuming they're the only res on the ticket) they remove the res from the seat they're not going on.

I can't really say I'm a fan of spreading the unreservable seats throughout the train, all too often you can set off to the far end in the hope of finding something. At least if they're all together you might decide to save a wasted trek, especially with luggage.

modernrail · 22 Aug 2018

It doesn't help that on the quieter trains they still bunch up all the reservations. When people get on they often see this and decide to spread out - but if the train then gets busier over the route it all falls apart. Again, not rocket science - just allocate all but one full carriage as reservations and then load up the system so that it spreads reservations over the reserved carriages evenly.

The other and possible related thing that drives me mad is when you ask for a particular type of seat and it allocates a different type. You then get on the train and there are plenty of the type you wanted available. In these circumstances, yes I go and sit in a seat other than the one I reserved. It is not my job to teach a train company to suck eggs and if I have asked for a table seat it is probably because I need to work from the moment I get on to the moment I get off -which is most of the time. Again, this problem seemed to get much worse under Virgin on the East Coast.

CC 72100 · 22 Aug 2018

Helvellyn said:
What makes matters worse is people on Advance Tickets (but also some flexible ones) who don't occupy their booked seats. Those without reservations are then left trying to work out if a "reserved" seat is actually then free or not.

Does help when Guards remove used reservations or those where the person who reserved it doesn't turn up - the visual illusion for the passenger looking for seats makes all the difference!

cactustwirly · 22 Aug 2018

ainsworth74 said:
True but what seats there are in the vehicle are unreserved but yes I suppose if we're looking for a whole coach then LNER don't have one on any of their trains.

It is interesting that of the four real long distance operators in LNER, XC, VTWC and GWR (sorry EMT, GA and SWR!) that LNER (and their predecessors) never bothered with a full unreserved coach on any of their trains. I wonder why?

Um EMT is a 'real long distance operator' actually!
Well they operate intercity stock (HSTs) on a 125mph railway, so I don't see why they aren't! (London to Nottingham/Sheffield isn't exactly a short distance.)

uww11x · 26 Aug 2018

It would be better having first come first served. People arguing over reserved seats is so stupid

CC 72100 · 26 Aug 2018

uww11x said:
It would be better having first come first served. People arguing over reserved seats is so stupid

I take it you never travel long distances and don't have to board a train not at its origin then?

At the end of the day, the train has to compete against other forms of long distance travel - the plane and the coach - and also against the car.

Making it impossible to reserve a seat would be a significant detractor for many leisure travellers.

Reservations could even be viewed by this group as a necessity, not even a nice to have.

uww11x · 26 Aug 2018

Travel all the time from Carlisle down south which is not the orgin of VTWC or FTPE services. Always go to Coach U etc. Hardly a necessity. Turn up and take a seat if there is one free.

CC 72100 · 26 Aug 2018

uww11x said:
Travel all the time from Carlisle down south which is not the orgin of VTWC or FTPE services. Always go to Coach U etc. Hardly a necessity. Turn up and take a seat if there is one free.

So just because on your journey it's absolutely fine, reservations are not needed nationwide?

Repeat the experience on CrossCountry at Birmingham (or many other places on their network to be honest!), Reading heading to the West Country or at ECML stations (say York heading Southbound) and you'd likely appreciate the option of reserving a seat.

Perhaps the Northern part of the WCML has plenty of capacity, if so, great. But just because it's ok on your journey there, especially when getting a seat is often listed as one of the most important things for customer satisfaction (If only there was something that could assist with that, like booking a reservation?) doesn't convince me that they're not needed at all, anywhere.

route101 · 26 Aug 2018

CC 72100 said:
So just because on your journey it's absolutely fine, reservations are not needed nationwide?

Repeat the experience on CrossCountry at Birmingham (or many other places on their network to be honest!), Reading heading to the West Country or at ECML stations (say York heading Southbound) and you'd likely appreciate the option of reserving a seat.

Perhaps the Northern part of the WCML has plenty of capacity, if so, great. But just because it's ok on your journey there, especially when getting a seat is often listed as one of the most important things for customer satisfaction (If only there was something that could assist with that, like booking a reservation?) doesn't convince me that they're not needed at all, anywhere.

Saturday evenings seem to be quietest on the WCML north of Preston .

Sometimes when youve reserved a seat you cant easily to get to it as ive seen when boarding TPE 350 north from Manchester .

uww11x · 26 Aug 2018

CC 72100 said:
So just because on your journey it's absolutely fine, reservations are not needed nationwide?

Repeat the experience on CrossCountry at Birmingham (or many other places on their network to be honest!), Reading heading to the West Country or at ECML stations (say York heading Southbound) and you'd likely appreciate the option of reserving a seat.

Perhaps the Northern part of the WCML has plenty of capacity, if so, great. But just because it's ok on your journey there, especially when getting a seat is often listed as one of the most important things for customer satisfaction (If only there was something that could assist with that, like booking a reservation?) doesn't convince me that they're not needed at all, anywhere.

I have caught trains from New Street and they have been rammed. Am I really going to challenge someone guy who is sat in my seat. Probably not, as I don’t want beaten up.

Spartacus · 26 Aug 2018

uww11x said:
I have caught trains from New Street and they have been rammed. Am I really going to challenge someone guy who is sat in my seat. Probably not, as I don’t want beaten up.

No, but you can speak to the guard who should then challenge them.

atraindriver · 27 Aug 2018

ag51ruk · 27 Aug 2018

uww11x said:
I have caught trains from New Street and they have been rammed. Am I really going to challenge someone guy who is sat in my seat. Probably not, as I don’t want beaten up.

You don't need to challenge anyone- just check that the screen above the seat is showing that it is reserved, and politely say that you have a reservation for that seat. The vast majority of people will apologise and move.

yorksrob · 27 Aug 2018

modernrail said:
Totally agree with the OP. I use the trains a lot. If you are going to reserve most of the train then you don't charge last minute folks the same as a flight to New York. Simples. To make matters worse - I think I am right in saying that there are no plugs in the buffet carriage. Isn't it just the old restaurant car turned around? You also get the queue for the buffet right next to you. If you are going to charge top rates you should hand out instant refunds for those who have paid over a certain price left standing.

The problem shows up the stupid position we have got to where some advance fares are just too cheap compared to the open fare. Does any other country have any where near this disparity? There should be 2 sets of fares for each train. Early booker and later booker. Late booker fares should be no more than double early booker fares. One carriage should be unreserved for on the day tickets. I can accept the logic of a peak and off-peak. If anything the logical thing is to guarantee seat bookings for the higher fare, not the lower one. This system would also stop the undignified sight of people who have missed their booked train for a perfectly good reason becoming very upset when they are told they need a new open ticket at a hideous cost. It is just inhuman to run a system like this where you can wipe out a student or older person's entire income for a month because of one missed connection. As for not just charging the difference between the original ticket and the new one - why? Again, disgraceful behaviour that we should have risen up against a long time ago. We claim to have lots of backbone and want to be outside the EU because we are marvellous, yet we can't show any evidence of holding our Government to account on really simple things. Dreamland.

If I am being completely honest, I also get annoyed at the sight of retired baby boomers who can book well in advance and pay next to nothing sit in reserved seats to have a natter whilst I am paying silly amounts and then sitting on the floor to do a load of work to stand any chance of paying the hideous mortgage delivered to me as a result of the complete political inaction of said baby boomers - until of course they decided to get active and vote against their own children and the majority of the working population. Can the position with seat reservations really be extrapolated like this I hear you say? Yes it bloody can, far more than the situation with bananas or the colour of our sodding passports was by said baby boomers feeding themselves absolute dross courtesy of the Daily Fail.

The way I understand it works on WCML is that you hit a certain point and then it won't allow seat reservations any more. At least with that system you know you are in for a fair fight and you can turn up as early as possible and pull all the tricks you know of to try and get a seat.

I think you'll find that its the walk-on fares that have become too expensive in comparison to other fare types.

Peter Mugridge · 28 Aug 2018

LNER has tweeted that coach H is unreserved:

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1010853700368306177

Coach H is the unreserved coach, Sam. ^KM

mrmartin · 28 Aug 2018

Yes, but they will continue to book that up if there is demand, unlike VTWC who leave at least one carriage empty. The train I got recently had 12 seats unreserved in H.

ainsworth74 · 28 Aug 2018

mrmartin said:
Yes, but they will continue to book that up if there is demand, unlike VTWC who leave at least one carriage empty. The train I got recently had 12 seats unreserved in H.

Are you sure that that wasn't due to reservations being moved from other coaches due to a set swap? I've never known them to book coach H only to use it to cater for set swaps.

cactustwirly · 28 Aug 2018

ainsworth74 said:
Are you sure that that wasn't due to reservations being moved from other coaches due to a set swap? I've never known them to book coach H only to use it to cater for set swaps.

Surely if there is a set swap, then they get rid of the reservations?

Silver Cobra · 28 Aug 2018

cactustwirly said:
Surely if there is a set swap, then they get rid of the reservations?

From what I've seen, the normal practice when a set swap between an HST and IC225 occurs is that reservations for coach G go into H (and any that can't fit there into F) and those for J into K, and the vice versa. Unless it's a last minute swap, reservations are not dropped.

ainsworth74 · 28 Aug 2018

cactustwirly said:
Surely if there is a set swap, then they get rid of the reservations?

It's not unusual to see a HST substituting for a IC225 set or vice versa which means reservations have to get moved around. As coach G doesn't exist on an IC225 set you'll often see reservations for G placed in coach H when a IC225 deputises for an HST. The only time they'd ditch reservations is if there was insufficent time to transfer them before departure from origin or if they had to change trains en-route. Otherwise they work around it by moving reservations where possible. Another example would be reservations for coach K (IC225 only) appearing in coach J (HST only) in the event of a swap.

cactustwirly · 28 Aug 2018

ainsworth74 said:
It's not unusual to see a HST substituting for a IC225 set or vice versa which means reservations have to get moved around. As coach G doesn't exist on an IC225 set you'll often see reservations for G placed in coach H when a IC225 deputises for an HST. The only time they'd ditch reservations is if there was insufficent time to transfer them before departure from origin or if they had to change trains en-route. Otherwise they work around it by moving reservations where possible. Another example would be reservations for coach K (IC225 only) appearing in coach J (HST only) in the event of a swap.

Surely G & F are the unreserved coaches?
Same with H - E on the 225 sets?
I've never known a TOC have so many coaches reserved

Bletchleyite · 28 Aug 2018

uww11x said:
It would be better having first come first served. People arguing over reserved seats is so stupid

First come first served does make sense - pay first, get allocated first.

LNER: why such a small unreserved coach?

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