Rhyl to shotton (very nearly) is all 90mph now, so that will easily claw them 3 minutes in. No point looking at today’s timings as the line is full of TSRs keeping the old speed in place. Very annoying.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders
- Thread starter JetStream
- Start date
- Status
Rhyl to shotton (very nearly) is all 90mph now, so that will easily claw them 3 minutes in. No point looking at today’s timings as the line is full of TSRs keeping the old speed in place. Very annoying.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
krus_aragon
Established Member
That would seem to square the circle.
How much of the linespeed improvements around Gobowen etc. have been implemented in the current timetable? If they're still busy making slack time, it could allow Chester-Birmingham services to depart later, and Birmingham-Chester services would get to Chester sooner.
Looking at a sample Realtime Trains page for Chester (with no STP alterations) most services toward Birmingham are departing around XX35, and most arrivals from Birmingham are around XX20.
Forgive the crayon, but on that basis, services from BHM are occupying the single line from Rossett-Wrexham North between XX03 and XX08, and those toward BHM between XX44 and XX49. Allowing for travel between Chester and Rossett (it appears to be 8 from Chester, 12 towards) and assuming five minutes dwell time at CTR for the Liverpool services (for coupling/decoupling with the NW Coast portions), they'd be occupying the single line between XX20 and XX25 southbound, and XX55 and XX00 northbound. Or tabulated:
BHM-HHD: XX03-XX08
LIV-SHR/CDF: XX20-XX25
HHD-BHM: XX44-XX49
SHR/CDF-LIV: XX55-XX00
Things are a little bit tight for the two northbound services, but you could concievably run the Liverpool service a little earlier and stand at Chester for a little longer. Having both northbound services from Wrexham so close is unfortunate from a passenger's perspective, but then again the frequency on the Borderlands will be increased too.
craigybagel
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Oct 2012
- Messages
- 5,081
One small issue you may come across there - at the moment Gobowen North to Croes Newydd (the box just south of Wrexham) is one block section AFAIK, which takes 16 minutes to cover, which would put a limit on headways. Also, there is an intermediate block signal between Shrewsbury and Gobowen North, but again that's breaking up into two a section that takes nearly 20 minutes to cover so I doubt you could reliably get two trains 8 minutes apart through there either.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Let see Indicative times at Chester, known fixed times at Shrewsbury and signalling headways - its adding up to the Birmingham to Holyheads being diverted to Liverpool.
krus_aragon
Established Member
I don't follow. Do you mean diverted Holyhead-Liverpool or diverted Birmingham-Liverpool? The former doesn't meet the 1tph stated for North Wales Coast - Liverpool, and the latter would be a seriously circuitous route, and probably invite the wrath of the DfT for creating a long England-England service.
Edit: Also, the ITSFT asks for 2tph between Chester and Shrewsbury, so you'd still need to fit a second northbound service in somewhere (though it could be at a different time).
Last edited:
I read somewhere, roughly 2 weeks ago, that the welsh government had granted £500,000 for improvements to the single line between Wrexham-Chester to improve times. Please don’t ask me to find it because I can’t remember where I read it. That’s certainly not enough money to redouble, but does anyone know what type of work that amount of money might buy??
A cross over to P2,3 & 4 would be very useful and ease congestion at the level crossing.
A cross over to P2,3 & 4 would be very useful and ease congestion at the level crossing.
krus_aragon
Established Member
It was mentioned in the long-running Wrexham redouble thread, and possibly elsewhere. Nobody's sure what exactly is involved, but your suggestions sound as good as any I've heard.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
Given the times published for Chester to Liverpool and the fact that the slots at Shrewsbury for Birmingham services are fixed it would appear that a big recast is needed becusse of congestion otherwise.
Ah, thank you. I suspect the money will just be used to increase to 30mph psr at Wrexham north junction, in the down direction, up to 50. I can’t see the money being stretched any more than that.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The money is only to take the proposals to Grip 3 - ie just a costed plan, nothing actually done on the ground!
The real cost will probably be 40-million-ish, based on what phase 1 cost north of Rossett.
And it still leaves a 2-mile stretch of single track up Gresford bank, with 60mph connections.
But at least it's a start.
Oh. Hopefully the single track can be shortened. I don’t think they’ll change the bridge over the A483 so it’ll stay single over that, but redoubling up to it either side would be a massive improvement.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
As an aside - did a little trip to Rhymney ? Hengoed yesterday (Tuesday is my "day out" on the trains) - very noticeable how station cleaning standards are slipping - most signage is dirty - (mouldy even) , lifts not working at Bargoed (with no notice saying "out of use") , etc etc. Staff, as ever, excellent and friendly.
Now one for someone locally to answer , if they can - there seemed to be no evidence of the green "Samaritan" notices (the ones that give the help line and advice on how to call them ,if help is needed) - they are pretty well everywhere in England (cannot speak for Scotland) , I thought this was a nationwide code of practice , which one assumes does a lot of good (always commented on if they were there post incident in my part of the World) ...when I have spotted one missing , I have spoken to staff and they have courteously taken this up and got it fixed within a short time)
Any Welsh feedback please ?
Now one for someone locally to answer , if they can - there seemed to be no evidence of the green "Samaritan" notices (the ones that give the help line and advice on how to call them ,if help is needed) - they are pretty well everywhere in England (cannot speak for Scotland) , I thought this was a nationwide code of practice , which one assumes does a lot of good (always commented on if they were there post incident in my part of the World) ...when I have spotted one missing , I have spoken to staff and they have courteously taken this up and got it fixed within a short time)
Any Welsh feedback please ?
Voyager lad
Member
I can inform that we do have those signs in Scotland. In fact Scotrail make announcements at some stations (I’ve heard them at Larbert, Edinburgh Gateway and Edinburgh Waverley) about the Samaritans
Mordac
Established Member
Even NIR has them!
Cardiff123
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 Mar 2013
- Messages
- 1,318
I'm not surprised at what you've described you saw - why would ATW be particularly bothered at this point?
They have 7 weeks left and Keolis Amey have already committed to carry out a deep clean of all stations within the first year, which will probably include replacing all station signage into new TfW colours and branding.
Over the remaining 7 weeks they have left ATW will be focussing on removing their branding from trains (and stations?) rather than keeping things looking pristine.
ATW probably have realised they've lost the PR battle to be remembered by passengers favourably.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
My son is an NHS professional who deals with these things on a daily basis as an advisor - so just a bit of an interest above a retired railwayman who has spent his life dealing with some of these things.
Delighted that Scotland and NIR are on board . maybe the Valleys has been neglected....needs fixing IMHO.
Delighted that Scotland and NIR are on board . maybe the Valleys has been neglected....needs fixing IMHO.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
Understood - I can empasise , if not agree with a "laissez faire" view in the last weeks - however a lift OOS is not really on for someone who wants to go north , or has come off a train in the Rhymney bound direction with a load of cases , buggy etc would be in trouble.
Noted several encumbered passengers on trains , one with a double buggy with very young kids , and , as ever , the staff assisted as a matter of course. To their credit.
Cardiff123
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 Mar 2013
- Messages
- 1,318
Oh yes, absolutely - lifts OOU are not acceptable and should be fixed ASAP. Lifts at Cardiff Central have been OOU for extended periods recently.
ATW staff are great and always do their best with the circumstances they are in.
Kite159
Veteran Member
At least one of the Station signs at Llanbister Road & Knucklas has had some blue tape put over the ATW logo on the signage, so I guess the tape is coming out to slowly de-brand the signage.
(Ignoring the "Wales & Borders" stickers on the waiting shelter)
Last edited:
Cardiff123
Established Member
- Joined
- 10 Mar 2013
- Messages
- 1,318
I saw a 'free WiFi' sticker on board a train today that had tape over "Arriva" so it read "log in to _____ Trains Wales WiFi".
I'd have thought they would need to remove the entire sticker in that case. Everyone knows what comes before the 'Trains Wales'.
ChiefPlanner
Established Member
The guy I was with - retired like me - got the Bargoed scheme through in his days at NR (+ Tir Phil loop , which has no scheduled passing there !) , was just a bit miffed , as the only solution for MIP access was the lift at Bargoed , which cost in excess of £2m ....imposible geographically to put the ski /slalom ramps in .....
Noted also the station seems de-manned , - it once had some taxi / station agent scheme there I recall...
As you say , I agree, the staff will always do their best. They are not helped. There must be someone with station "management" responsibilty knocking around , if only to put a bilingual notice up as to say "sorry - mae'n ddrwg genyf I"
I've not looked at the ITT document yet, but if you are currently that a non-stop Chester-Liverpool is required plus one that calls at Runcorn then I'm wondering whether that explains my previous confusion regarding the plans for the Cardiff-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Chester service (one source suggests hourly north of Shrewsbury, alternate hours south thereof and another suggests the opposite (hourly south, two-hourly north)). The answer might be that it is 1.5tph between Liverpool and Chester, with either 1tph non-stop and 0.5tph stopping or vice-versa. 1tph would go to Llandudno and have a portion for either Cardiff or Shrewsbury every two hours, with the remaining 0.5tph running to either Cardiff or Shrewsbury without a Llandundo portion... Still confusing...
Does alternate hour-long and half-hour gaps between Halton curve services help anything? When I was trying to figure out timetables for the services I would like to see in the new franchise; I was finding that the fixed paths out of Manchester and Birmingham made neat intervals (eg. 30 mins) pretty much impossible and wondered with swapping a path with Northern (the new Connect service to Chester) or London Midland (between Birmingham and Shrewsbury) would A. help and B. be possible? In the case of Birmingham-Shrewsbury, it would mean a 'semi-fast' path becoming a stopper and vice-versa (as I wouldn't want to see the W&B services calling at all the extra English stations) but if that could be done might it also allow more time west of Dovey Junction for the new Bow Street calls?
That's quite a few stops given the desire for fast services; personally during the franchise reletting process I felt there should be 1tph fast to/from Holyhead, 1tph semi-fast (Bangor/Caernarfon) and 1tph all-stations (Llandudno) between Chester and Llandudno Junction. The four stops listed would have been my 'semi-fast' (with the possible addition of Shotton every two hours) and the fast would use the original stopping pattern for Gerald, with one stop per county (Holyhead, Bangor, Llandudno Junction, Rhyl and Fflint).
Gareth Marston
Established Member
The ITT gives indicative times of the path into/out of Chester to Liverpool via Halton Curve - its one per hour .
Gareth Marston
Established Member
No you cannot "swap" paths between TOC's in the fragmented railway. Northern, WMT and KA will have their paths locked in by their respective franchise agreements. Practical stuff BR would have worked out on a sheet of paper in the Divisional Managers office over a cup of tea and implemented without refernce to DfT are now impossible due to "contractual arrangements".
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
That's the one for the local stopper starting in December.
No guidance on any new services.
New paths out of Lime St will be constrained, even after the upgrade.
Then there's the limitations of the single track Halton Curve, and capacity Frodsham-Chester after Northern start their Leeds service.
That's before you reach Chester...
Gareth Marston
Established Member
in other words don't hold your breadth on any other paths....?
krus_aragon
Established Member
The ITT lists minimum requirements for desired (as opposed to required) service improvements. The stops at Runcorn and South Parkway are included in the minimum for the two-hourly or hourly Wrexham and North Wales Coast to Lime Street services, but while they're not required for the Cardiff to Lime Street, there's no need for the service to be non-stop either. In other words, the Cardiff and Wrexham services could be merged by bidders if desired.
The ITT also lists conditions imposed by the DfT on cross-border services, mainly in the form of maximum service frequency. They allow no more than 1tph between Lime Street and Chester. It also notes the following assumptions for West Midland services:
On commencement of the new West Midlands franchise, its geographic scope will be unchanged, but,
some changes to services relevant to Wales and Borders will be introduced, as follows:
- From December 2018, a new hourly semi-fast service will be introduced between Birmingham New Street and Shrewsbury, with an assumed calling pattern of Smethwick Galton Bridge, Wolverhampton, Codsall, Shifnal, Telford Central and Wellington. The new service should be assumed to operate, as follows:
- a. Mondays to Fridays, during and between peak periods;
- b. Saturdays, as Mondays to Fridays and during the evening; and
- c. Sundays, service to be introduced from May 2021, from 1000 to 2159 hours.
- The two-hourly stopping service between Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury on Sundays, which is currently operated by Wales and Borders, should be assumed to be replaced by a service operated by West Midlands from December 2018. The replacement West Midlands service should be assumed to run hourly between Birmingham New Street and Shrewsbury, with calls at Smethwick Galton Bridge and Sandwell & Dudley and at all stations between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton, subject to pathing considerations, which may result in a two-hourly frequency at some smaller stations (expected to be Oakengates and one other station). The TSRs for Wales and Borders reflect the introduction of this West Midlands service.
- The remaining calls made by Wales and Borders services on Sundays at the smaller stations (Bilbrook, Codsall, Albrighton, Cosford, Shifnal and Oakengates) between Wolverhampton and Shrewsbury should be assumed to transfer to West Midlands services from May 2021. The TSRs for Wales and Borders reflect the transfer.
Remember that these were all optional desirables, which would attract a bonus when evaluating bidders' submissions. Your idea might have been the baseline requirement, for all we know.
nedchester
Established Member
- Joined
- 28 May 2008
- Messages
- 2,093
There are only two (or three) paths out of / into Lime Street all the way to Halton Junction, then you have the single line to ensure no clashes and then of course Frodsham Jn to Chester is AB as far as Mickle Trafford. It is very tight along there when trying to put additional services along there.
Incidentally, Helsby and Frodsham could well generate a good number of passengers on this service due to the tolls on the bridges at Runcorn.
Gareth Marston
Established Member
I seriously doubt that the whole thing is constrained by the path ATW currently have into/out of BHM INTL.
krus_aragon
Established Member
Certainly no extra paths: the DfT have laid down the law on that. 1tph Chester to Lime Street, and 1tph (plus the peak extras) Chester to Manchester.
- Status