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East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

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TheDavibob

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“The C routes deliver nothing but blight along the corridor” as quoted by Cllr Kindersley.


Cllr Kindersley and the local Parish Councils don’t even try to deny this is not about NIMBYism. It will be of no surprise to learn that according to the the council website, Cllr Kindersley lives in one of the potentially affected villages... Who knew? ;)
And, of course, battering one's way into Cambridge is absolutely fine.
 
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Tobbes

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And, of course, battering one's way into Cambridge is absolutely fine.

Battering? On an existing railway?

I'm no fan of NIMBYs but the arguments about housing and the A428 corridor are sound, if a practical route that isn't prohibitively expensive (or steep for freightliners) can be found. I'd use the busway alignment rather than going to Waterbeach, though.
 

aylesbury

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Reading the latest article in Modern Railways September the work is going to be spread over quite a long period, but as we have been waiting twenty five years plus it will be worth the wait as the journey opportunities will be excellent.

It's a shame the wires will not be up, but we cant have everything. It's a missed opportunity to a wide range of destinations for new services, which would provide through services to make more journeys without having to change trains or go via London.
 
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Bald Rick

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So what's your best guess? And is a northerly route via Cambourne feasible in engineering terms?

Oops, slight typo, my post should have read “I haven’t paid too much attention...”

Now edited.

I haven’t even looked at it, and don’t know the area too well, so will keep my crayons holstered.
 

Tobbes

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Oops, slight typo, my post should have read “I haven’t paid too much attention...”

Now edited.

I haven’t even looked at it, and don’t know the area too well, so will keep my crayons holstered.

Fair enough, many thanks as ever.
 

daodao

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I don't expect a rail line to be (re-)constructed from Bedford to Cambridge for many years to come, if ever. The remote siting of Cambridge's station from the city centre does not encourage rail traffic (particularly short-distance journeys) to it.

The progress in re-opening the mothballed line from Calvert to Bletchley is extremely slow, although it will eventually happen. Once this occurs, the impoverished state of the economy post-Brexit is likely to lead to further development east of Bedford being shelved ad infinitum.

East-West rail is a vanity project like the Western Corridor in Eire, with Bedford-Cambridge the equivalent of the Burma road (Claremorris to Collooney Junction).
 

richieb1971

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It's a sad state of affairs that we live in hope that after millions is spent we can still shelve a project.
 

si404

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East-West rail is a vanity project like the Western Corridor in Eire
Such an apples-to-oranges comparison! Connacht has fewer people than Cambridgeshire (let alone the rest of the area E-W rail serves). And the people in the Varsity Arc are also far more likely to take the train if they can - they are richer, more urban, more likely to be in the tech industry, etc. Rather than linking a couple of lines that see a few trains per day, it links lines that see a few trains an hour (and the 'few' is bigger in every case).

The Western Corridor in NW Ireland is about stimulating the economy by pork spending on infrastructure, E-W Rail is about getting infrastructure caught up with the growth of the economy and making it less dependent on the car. Even post-Brexit vote, there's not many (if any) faster growing regional economies in Europe in Western Europe than what's currently branded 'England's Economic Heartland'.

A better equivalent would be the Bakerloo line extension - without it, existing infrastructure wouldn't cope with development that is demanded. It's not there to create demand for development, but to meet it and allow the demand to be supplied.
 

jimm

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I don't expect a rail line to be (re-)constructed from Bedford to Cambridge for many years to come, if ever. The remote siting of Cambridge's station from the city centre does not encourage rail traffic (particularly short-distance journeys) to it.

And yet somehow 11 million journeys a year are made through the remote outpost known as Cambridge station. Oxford station, which is marginally closer to the city centre, sees far less traffic, 6.6 million per year.
 

TheDavibob

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And yet somehow 11 million journeys a year are made through the remote outpost known as Cambridge station. Oxford station, which is marginally closer to the city centre, sees far less traffic, 6.6 million per year.
Yes, that was a bizzare comment that doesn't understand the economic geography of modern Cambridge. A trip on the (vastly underserved) Fen Line would easily dispell any myth about lack of shortish train journeys to Cambridge.

As would the 12-car filling hordes of tourists from London at a weekend.

The station location is inconvenient but hardly a deal breaker, especially as the modern economic centre is far more skewed towards the station as opposed to the historic centre.
 

edwin_m

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The Cambridge North station, and the planned Cambrdge South station, are close to some of the major employment areas. East-West trains would probably call at Cambridge South and if they didn't continue to Cambridge North it would be possible to connect at Cambridge.
 

Tobbes

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One of the reasons I prefer a via Cambourne northerly approach is precisely because it allows trains to call at all three Cambs stations (as it will be then) and continue to Stansted without chamges or reversals.
 

Class 170101

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Discussed upthread:
- via Amersham will need train lengthening (and already runs longer trains off-peak) by the time it is open, so lots of shifting around air in empty rolling stock north of Aylesbury.
- the need for tripcocks on the stock so it can run on the LUL tracks
- less scope for through-Aylesbury traffic than going via HW (more people would change off an MK via Am at Aylesbury onto HW trains than vice versa), rendering the extra effort not worth it.

It's an easy termination without much effort to make happen, or that much inconvenience, and can be fixed at a later date (cf the Elizabeth line which is to open with a better service than specified) should the improvements south of Aylesbury occur.

Surely just splitting at Aylesbury would be better. So say a 6 car train from Marylebone to Aylesbury via Amersham with three carriages forward to MK from there (or any other combination of carriages). Aylesbury isn't built as a terminus station is it, especially from the north?

As for Tripcocks;
The Met will have TBTC by the then.

I would agree there is probably higher demand via High Wycombe than via Amersham but if the improvements to single line section between High Wycombe and Aylesbury has been de-scoped out surely its better to provide a service via the already double track Amersham route instead given the possible constraints I've outlined at Aylesbury already.
 

mr_jrt

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One of the reasons I prefer a via Cambourne northerly approach is precisely because it allows trains to call at all three Cambs stations (as it will be then) and continue to Stansted without chamges or reversals.

Indeed. The irony being that the stakeholders along the Cambridge to Ipswich (aka. the Eastern) section were the primary instigators of the project, IIRC. Extension of the Stansted branch to Braintree along the disused line through Great Dunmow would enable EWR services from Didcot on the GWML to Witham on the GEML though, which is pretty impressive. I'm not sure if Ipswich or Stansted would provide more of a traffic objective though.
 

AndrewE

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No room in the current layout at Stansted for trains from East West Rail.
Looking at an aerial view it seems that the airport to Cambridge chord could be doubled quite easily, but was the tunnel approach to the station built to only take a singe track? If so then I despair. Only laying the track you can afford is one thing, but stitching yourself up forever by not making provision for a second track somewhere as difficult to upgrade as a tunnel strikes me as shortsighted in the extreme.
I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised after the cost-savings that will handicap any upgrades to the Scottish Borders line.
 

Tobbes

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No room in the current layout at Stansted for trains from East West Rail.

But as @richieb1971 points out, it's something that should be developed to get the most out of the EWR investment.

On the Ipswich angle, I guess it depends on the service pattern; 2tph Oxford to Cambs becomes 1pth Oxford - Stansted and 1 tph Oxford to Ipswich which would replace/supplement the existing 1 tph Ipswich - Cambs (which an ideal world would be 2 tph - 1 stopping only at Bury St Eds and Newmarket and the other all stations, including reopened Cherry Hinton, Fulborn (& Dullingham with housing development). I'd want to redouble Cambs to Newmarket, too.
 

Tobbes

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Looking at an aerial view it seems that the airport to Cambridge chord could be doubled quite easily, but was the tunnel approach to the station built to only take a singe track? If so then I despair. Only laying the track you can afford is one thing, but stitching yourself up forever by not making provision for a second track somewhere as difficult to upgrade as a tunnel strikes me as shortsighted in the extreme.
I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised after the cost-savings that will handicap any upgrades to the Scottish Borders line.

Yes, IIRC Stansted was done absolutely as cheaply possible, but a second tunnel is just one of those things that needs to be done if you want to expand services to Stansted.
 
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jimm

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I would agree there is probably higher demand via High Wycombe than via Amersham but if the improvements to single line section between High Wycombe and Aylesbury has been de-scoped out surely its better to provide a service via the already double track Amersham route instead given the possible constraints I've outlined at Aylesbury already.

That would depend entirely on whether anyone thinks there is a huge untapped demand for travel from any part of Buckinghamshire south of Aylesbury to Milton Keynes.

The decision to keep expenditure south of Claydon to a minimum suggests that a cold hard look at the situation has indicated that demand is not there. The key point of the exercise has always been to connect Aylesbury with Milton Keynes and just because you can run trains through from south of Aylesbury does not mean that is always the optimum solution.

I've yet to meet anyone who thinks that the linkage of GWR services between Worcester/Gloucester and Bristol and Bristol and South Coast destinations comes into the runaway success category and through travel using these trains is limited.
 
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si404

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The decision to keep expenditure south of Claydon to a minimum suggests that a cold hard look at the situation has indicated that demand is not there. The key point of the exercise has always been to connect Aylesbury with Milton Keynes and just because you can run trains through from south oaf Aylesbury does not mean that is always the optimum solution.
It's also about isolating the scheme and making it less complex. It's similar to Crossrail going to Maidenhead - a desire to avoid paying for additional stuff that aren't core parts of the scheme.
 

camflyer

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But as @richieb1971 points out, it's something that should be developed to get the most out of the EWR investment.

On the Ipswich angle, I guess it depends on the service pattern; 2tph Oxford to Cambs becomes 1pth Oxford - Stansted and 1 tph Oxford to Ipswich which would replace/supplement the existing 1 tph Ipswich - Cambs (which an ideal world would be 2 tph - 1 stopping only at Bury St Eds and Newmarket and the other all stations, including reopened Cherry Hinton, Fulborn (& Dullingham with housing development). I'd want to redouble Cambs to Newmarket, too.

Ther is definitely the demand and passenger growth from Bury and Newmarket to support 2 tph especially at peak times. The early morning services into Cambridge are always packed.
 

a good off

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I personally think that the C2-2 is the most logical of routes as it is pretty much through open farm land on the level. I can completely see why people would want the line to go via Cambourn and St Neots but going that way would require much more engineering and increase the end to end journey times of East - West journeys. Having to create a triangle at Coldhams Lane would also add to the cost and complications of it all and give politicians an excuse to pull the whole scheme. Finding freight paths between Coldhams Lane and north of Waterbeach would be painful too.

For me, if we are going to start building new curves and triangles, would be a new curve from Fenny Stratford so freight and passenger trains from the Bedford area can access the WCML and MK via a Bletchley North Jn. This would be a very useful alternative route for freightliners that currently go via the NLL or Ely.
 
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Bald Rick

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Yes, IIRC Stansted was done absolutely as cheaply possible, but a second tunnel is just one of those things that needs to be done if you want to expand services to Stansted.

And it is by no means the only thing. Even if the tunnel was doubled, there is no space for more trains on the route to London, and as frequently explained elsewhere on this thread and others, there’s no space for more trains on the southern approaches to Cambridge.
 

Tobbes

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And it is by no means the only thing. Even if the tunnel was doubled, there is no space for more trains on the route to London, and as frequently explained elsewhere on this thread and others, there’s no space for more trains on the southern approaches to Cambridge.

Thanks @Bald Rick - I wasn't aware that the line Cambs - Stansted was full. Is the whole route full, or just as far Shepreth Branch Junction?
 

Bald Rick

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Thanks @Bald Rick - I wasn't aware that the line Cambs - Stansted was full. Is the whole route full, or just as far Shepreth Branch Junction?

In two ways:

1) Shepreth Branch Jn to Cambridge, specifically the interactions between the station workings and the junction. Hence the need for 4 tracks and (probably) a flyover just to get Cambridge South station in. And this is all tied in with what happens south of Stansted and also on the ECML. You can’t look just at Stansted to Cambridge in isolation.

2) our old friends level crossings. There’s lots between Stansted and Cambridge, Even one extra train an hour each way will tip some of them over risk-wise.

I’d also have a fiver that there’s not enough juice in the power supply to support more (electric) trains, but I’m not sure of my ground on that. Going to 12 car on both routes needed quite a bit extra, and I suspect the new bi-modes on the Norwich - Stansteds will suck up some of the spare capacity left, assuming GA want to run them on the juice south of Ely.
 

Tobbes

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In two ways:

1) Shepreth Branch Jn to Cambridge, specifically the interactions between the station workings and the junction. Hence the need for 4 tracks and (probably) a flyover just to get Cambridge South station in. And this is all tied in with what happens south of Stansted and also on the ECML. You can’t look just at Stansted to Cambridge in isolation.

2) our old friends level crossings. There’s lots between Stansted and Cambridge, Even one extra train an hour each way will tip some of them over risk-wise.

I’d also have a fiver that there’s not enough juice in the power supply to support more (electric) trains, but I’m not sure of my ground on that. Going to 12 car on both routes needed quite a bit extra, and I suspect the new bi-modes on the Norwich - Stansteds will suck up some of the spare capacity left, assuming GA want to run them on the juice south of Ely.

Excellent, VMT as ever @Bald Rick. I should have said that I presumed that this was all post Cambs South (Addenbrookes) and therefore this lot would already be in place - and a flying junction would be excellent. But very interesting on the LCs and the power supply. I'd not considered the former and presumed that the second would get sorted if required, but a perfectly fair challenge.
 

Bald Rick

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Excellent, VMT as ever @Bald Rick. I should have said that I presumed that this was all post Cambs South (Addenbrookes) and therefore this lot would already be in place - and a flying junction would be excellent. But very interesting on the LCs and the power supply. I'd not considered the former and presumed that the second would get sorted if required, but a perfectly fair challenge.

Re power - Ugley feeder station has been tarted up so many times its name may have to be reconsidered!
 

jopsuk

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It looks a good idea, to be honest.

I'd add (as a Cambridge local) that one of the factors here that the south cambs cllrs will be particularly keen on will be that it sinks the idea of the Cambourne-West Cambridge busway and associated park and ride. By providing a high quality public transport link from Cambourne and St Neots to where people actually work in Cambridge (clustered around Science Park, the main station area and Addenbrookes) the need for a busway through Hardwick and Coton and across some unremarkable agricultural land (sorry, that should be "the beautiful and ecologically essential West Fields") is much reduced.

And as such, a station at St Neots is very much needed- there's a lot of commuting on that axis.

All the existing C-Corridor really supports is much less advanced plans for a new town at Bassingbourn Barracks and the potential for (probably unwelcome) development of Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton. But yes, I'd suggest leaving Bedford to the north would be a good idea, and putting in a south St neots station but also diverging north of the existing one would be good ideas
 

AndrewE

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And it is by no means the only thing. Even if the tunnel was doubled, there is no space for more trains on the route to London, and as frequently explained elsewhere on this thread and others, there’s no space for more trains on the southern approaches to Cambridge.
Oh dear! Yet again we have a situation of a pressing public transport need and the experts telling us that any solution is definitely in the "too difficult" box. Forget the need for congestion and pollution reduction, or decarbonisation of transport, it just can't be done.
We are going to have to learn to box clever (or cleverer than we do now anyway) and get more use out of the network we have. If the Belgians can run multi-portion trains all over their network all day - I know I am exaggerating a bit - we ought to be able to up our game.
So: upgrade the power supply. Lengthen all possible platforms and make all trains 8 or 12 coaches as soon justified.
Start portion working to get the most options out of the network capacity, e.g. Stanstead northbound in this context, which could split at Cambridge (or further north) for Bedford, Brum and Liverpool every hour or alternately. It will take money, but that's a fact of life if we want a decent infrastructure that doesn't strangle or poison us..
 
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