Bristol Parkway to London Paddington journey times

traindoorshut · 25 Aug 2018

Hi I'm new here, Hello! I've been using the Great Western mainline for years, and interested a little more in the electrification development of this line and lines connected to it.

I read about two years ago from a source I can no longer find, which maybe B.S. now, that journey times after the electrification, between Bristol Parkway and London Paddington could take 1hr 10mins. That is 12mins faster than the current fastest service at 1hr 22mins departing at 08:03 BPW arriving at 09:25 PAD. Have predicted timetables been released yet once the electrification is in full operation? If so, what is the source? If not, what are credible sources of information to follow or can anyone share any insights on journey times?

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Mintona · 25 Aug 2018

Good evening and welcome

There are no provisional timetables released yet for next May/December, but it is envisaged that off peak at least 2tph will run fast from Bristol Parkway to London Paddington, which is where the vast bulk of the saving will be made.

I’m looking forward to seeing how close to an hour it can actually be done in.

traindoorshut · 25 Aug 2018

@Mintona - thanks for your interest. Acronym buster: tph - trains per hour. Likewise, interested in both Bristol stations but for the purposes of this thread, please keep discussions mainly to Bristol Parkway.

traindoorshut · 25 Aug 2018

Useful information for anyone interested:

"The railway through Bristol Parkway will be closed between 15 September and 6 October inclusive, and again on the weekend of 13-14 October. No trains will run via Bristol Parkway during these periods."

"The railway through Bristol Parkway will be closed between 15 September and 6 October inclusive, and again on the weekend of 13-14 October. No trains will run via Bristol Parkway during these periods.

The upgrade includes the installation of the overhead line equipment (OLE) used to hold the wires for electrification, and we will be putting up masts and wires over those three weeks in the Bristol Parkway area, from Winterbourne viaduct, through Bristol Parkway station, up to Little Stoke, and then along the Filton East Curve.

Over these three weeks we’ll also be testing the overhead line equipment already installed between Royal Wootton Bassett and Winterbourne viaduct."

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...of-electrification-work-near-bristol-parkway/

MichaelAMW · 26 Aug 2018

traindoorshut said:
Hi I'm new here, Hello! I've been using the Great Western mainline for years, and interested a little more in the electrification development of this line and lines connected to it.

I read about two years ago from a source I can no longer find, which maybe B.S. now, that journey times after the electrification, between Bristol Parkway and London Paddington could take 1hr 10mins. That is 12mins faster than the current fastest service at 1hr 22mins departing at 08:03 BPW arriving at 09:25 PAD. Have predicted timetables been released yet once the electrification is in full operation? If so, what is the source? If not, what are credible sources of information to follow or can anyone share any insights on journey times?

Although a random look at 1980 in my timetable archive gives 1hr 14min as the fastest, so a long time and a lot of investment for only a small increase. I believe the orthodox reply on this forum is that the HSTs would have been speeding and being driven a lot "harder" in those days.

Western Lord · 26 Aug 2018

MichaelAMW said:
Although a random look at 1980 in my timetable archive gives 1hr 14min as the fastest, so a long time and a lot of investment for only a small increase. I believe the orthodox reply on this forum is that the HSTs would have been speeding and being driven a lot "harder" in those days.

No schedule has ever been based on the driver "speeding". Practically all schedules used to be faster because the timetable was not padded out to avoid late arrival penalties.

jimm · 26 Aug 2018

MichaelAMW said:
Although a random look at 1980 in my timetable archive gives 1hr 14min as the fastest, so a long time and a lot of investment for only a small increase. I believe the orthodox reply on this forum is that the HSTs would have been speeding and being driven a lot "harder" in those days.

Actually more that a fair number of trains simply did not call at Swindon and Reading, unlike today, and that there were generally rather fewer trains running on the Great Western main line anyway so pathing was less restrictive and there was less risk of knock-on delays affecting several services - e.g. there weren't two fast trains per hour all day between London and Bristol, and Cardiff, and Oxford, etc to accommodate.

With the speed limit remaining at 125mph, there were never going to be dramatic journey time reductions, with those that we will see coming largely from the better acceleration of electric trains and reduced dwell times at stations thanks to eliminating slam doors.

traindoorshut · 26 Aug 2018

What is limiting the top speed to 125mph? If a section of the line is fully electric, 140mph is possible with the Class 800.

A snippet I read:

"Average journey times will be cut by "up to 15 minutes" on routes from London to cities such as Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh."

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31831603

As this commentator says, maybe the French should get a look-in: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/10692139/Let-France-run-Britains-railways.html

swt_passenger · 26 Aug 2018

traindoorshut said:
What is limiting the top speed to 125mph? If a section of the line is fully electric, 140mph is possible with the Class 800.

A snippet I read:

"Average journey times will be cut by "up to 15 minutes" on routes from London to cities such as Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh."

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31831603

As this commentator says, maybe the French should get a look-in: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/10692139/Let-France-run-Britains-railways.html

Speeds above 125 mph require in cab signalling. Until that is fully rolled out 125 mph is the absolute limit.

Welcome to the forum by the way.

You might note that although it’s tempting to post “news” such as the planned closure at Parkway, it is already about three weeks old and was discussed at the time in the main GW electrification thread in the infrastructure forum here:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/great-western-electrification-progress.83452/

eastwestdivide · 26 Aug 2018

1978's timetable had the 1715 and 1815 from Paddington arriving at Bristol Parkway non-stop at 1823 and 1923 (1h08).
At other times of day, the xx15 Paddington-S Wales services were first stop Newport.

cle · 26 Aug 2018

jimm said:
Actually more that a fair number of trains simply did not call at Swindon and Reading, unlike today, and that there were generally rather fewer trains running on the Great Western main line anyway so pathing was less restrictive and there was less risk of knock-on delays affecting several services - e.g. there weren't two fast trains per hour all day between London and Bristol, and Cardiff, and Oxford, etc to accommodate.

With the speed limit remaining at 125mph, there were never going to be dramatic journey time reductions, with those that we will see coming largely from the better acceleration of electric trains and reduced dwell times at stations thanks to eliminating slam doors.

And surely these improvements are more noticeable with more stops - on a non-stop run, the HST wouldn’t be too far behind the electric.

On the one hand, out of Paddington is much slower now, but running through Reading is much quicker. So I’d not except much difference on the fast runs, but the more average ‘5 stops before Cardiff’ patterns.

ATW158Xpress · 26 Aug 2018

When non stop runs between Bristol Parkway and Paddington return. Trains will still have to slow down to pass Reading station though platforms 9 or 10 at half the speed than passing other stations like Didcot or Slough which can pass at 125 mph.

Mintona · 26 Aug 2018

ATW158Xpress said:
When non stop runs between Bristol Parkway and Paddington return. Trains will still have to slow down to pass Reading station though platforms 9 or 10 at half the speed than passing other stations like Didcot or Slough which can pass at 125 mph.

Not ‘half the speed’. Platform 9 and 10 are good for 95mph. Not 125 but not 65 either. The bigger drop will be to 85 at Swindon.

ATW158Xpress · 26 Aug 2018

Mintona said:
Not ‘half the speed’. Platform 9 and 10 are good for 95mph. Not 125 but not 65 either. The bigger drop will be to 85 at Swindon.

Not much of a speed drop for a busy station will be interesting site to see 2 trains in each direction passing at speed with passengers having to stand well back from fast platforms.

Bikeman78 · 26 Aug 2018

traindoorshut said:
What is limiting the top speed to 125mph? If a section of the line is fully electric, 140mph is possible with the Class 800.

A snippet I read:

"Average journey times will be cut by "up to 15 minutes" on routes from London to cities such as Cardiff, Swansea, Bristol, Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh."

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31831603

As this commentator says, maybe the French should get a look-in: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatlife/10692139/Let-France-run-Britains-railways.html

This is a vague statement to say the least. At the moment, the xx15 Paddington tpyically take 127 minutes to get to Cardiff, the xx45 take 121 minutes. In the up direction the xx26 from Cardiff are booked for 126 minutes whilst the xx56 take 133 minutes. So there's already a 12 minute variation between standard off peak schedules.

Mag_seven · 26 Aug 2018

eastwestdivide said:
1978's timetable had the 1715 and 1815 from Paddington arriving at Bristol Parkway non-stop at 1823 and 1923 (1h08).
At other times of day, the xx15 Paddington-S Wales services were first stop Newport.

Those were the days when when the HSTs were run as proper intercity services.

bnm · 26 Aug 2018

Those were the days when there wasn't four trains an hour between Bristol and London. South Wales had sometimes less than an hourly service.

Those were the days when the volume of traffic was much less.

Those were the days when passenger numbers meant that places like Reading and Swindon could be skipped.

Those were the days when an all station service was little quicker than today.

Those were the days when there was a less intensive service into and out of Paddington that allowed for longer headways and consequently higher line speeds.

Those were the days that are gone. The railway network has a very different job to do today.

traindoorshut · 26 Aug 2018

I'm interested to know what that job is? The demand for intercity travel is still greater than ever.

We need to build and maintain a network suitable for the 21st century with 21st century problems.

One has to question how France is operating 190mph+ trains since 1981.

jimm · 26 Aug 2018

traindoorshut said:
I'm interested to know what that job is? The demand for intercity travel is still greater than ever.

We need to build and maintain a network suitable for the 21st century with 21st century problems.

One has to question how France is operating 190mph+ trains since 1981.

Maybe France being a much larger country, with a much less densely-concentrated population - making it easy to build new railways without running into a town or village and upsetting someone - and the largest cities in France being a long way apart has something to do with it...

Hadders · 27 Aug 2018

traindoorshut said:
One has to question how France is operating 190mph+ trains since 1981.

Generally not great frequencies in France though. You don’t see 3 or 4 trains an hour between major cities like you do over here.

geoffk · 27 Aug 2018

If we compare the GWML timetable of 1976, only eight years after the end of regular BR steam and the year HSTs were new, with the current one we would see some interesting changes. There are many more trains now and they stop more but best times between major cities are 15 to 20 minutes slower. A 1977 poster at the NRM gives "headline times" London to Bath 69 minutes, to Bristol TM 85 minutes, Cardiff 105 and Swansea 163. Bath was (I think) non-stop, Bristol and Cardiff not more than two intermediate stops. When the HSTs were first introduced the scheduled time Paddington to Reading was 22 minutes. This was quite often achieved, though speeds of 130 mph were fairly commonplace (allegedly).
The longest non-stop runs are now only around 35 miles. Nothing passes Reading or Swindon without stopping and around 75% of trains stop at Didcot. The importance of these stations relatively close to London means that they have an almost suburban level of service; there's no equivalent of the GTR King's Cross - Peterborough service (the same distance as Paddington - Swindon). Then add in congested tracks close to Paddington, slower boarding times with Central Door Locking and the obligatory padding of timetables to meet punctuality targets.
All this gives the operator the chance to say that electrification will offer faster journey times. Faster than now maybe, but faster than 40 years ago? There's no competition from airlines on these routes so speed has less commercial importance.

SwindonBert · 27 Aug 2018

geoffk said:
If we compare the GWML timetable of 1976, only eight years after the end of regular BR steam and the year HSTs were new, with the current one we would see some interesting changes. There are many more trains now and they stop more but best times between major cities are 15 to 20 minutes slower. A 1977 poster at the NRM gives "headline times" London to Bath 69 minutes, to Bristol TM 85 minutes, Cardiff 105 and Swansea 163. Bath was (I think) non-stop, Bristol and Cardiff not more than two intermediate stops. When the HSTs were first introduced the scheduled time Paddington to Reading was 22 minutes. This was quite often achieved, though speeds of 130 mph were fairly commonplace (allegedly).
The longest non-stop runs are now only around 35 miles. Nothing passes Reading or Swindon without stopping and around 75% of trains stop at Didcot. The importance of these stations relatively close to London means that they have an almost suburban level of service; there's no equivalent of the GTR King's Cross - Peterborough service (the same distance as Paddington - Swindon). Then add in congested tracks close to Paddington, slower boarding times with Central Door Locking and the obligatory padding of timetables to meet punctuality targets.
All this gives the operator the chance to say that electrification will offer faster journey times. Faster than now maybe, but faster than 40 years ago? There's no competition from airlines on these routes so speed has less commercial importance.

There are a couple of peak hour trains to Cheltenham that don't stop at Reading, 1st stop is Didcot, taking just 36 minutes
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C40281/2018/08/29/advanced

Mintona · 27 Aug 2018

And I shall be on 1U28 (1912 London-Bristol) tonight which is fast to Swindon. But normally you don’t get a clear run through Reading, and if you do you don’t get a clear run through Didcot. And if you’re lucky enough to get both (on the one occasion I have..) I got put behind a freight from Challow to Swindon so was stuck at ~50mph for the last 10 miles or so. There are just too many trains on the network these days for non stop runs to be really worth it.

geoffk · 27 Aug 2018

Mintona said:
And I shall be on 1U28 (1912 London-Bristol) tonight which is fast to Swindon. But normally you don’t get a clear run through Reading, and if you do you don’t get a clear run through Didcot. And if you’re lucky enough to get both (on the one occasion I have..) I got put behind a freight from Challow to Swindon so was stuck at ~50mph for the last 10 miles or so. There are just too many trains on the network these days for non stop runs to be really worth it.

My post above not quite correct. I wasn't aware of the 1912 to Bristol Parkway, also there is a morning up Swansea which misses Reading.

The Planner · 27 Aug 2018

I always find the "they are slower than 30 years ago" argument puzzling, regardless of route. How much faster should the journey be? how much faster do people expect them to be in 10, 20 years time? There is a point where things are going to flatten out and any improvement is a small increment which isn't going to be worth the cash. Unless new HS routes are built and you have the current situation of "oh, Didcot, Swindon, Bath, add any station here, are going to lose out, why should Bristol get the new route etc etc".

HowardGWR · 27 Aug 2018

Reading Mintona's posting, 4 tracking from Didcot to Wootton Bassett would seem to be more useful than making the services faster top speed.

Mintona · 27 Aug 2018

HowardGWR said:
Reading Mintona's posting, 4 tracking from Didcot to Wootton Bassett would seem to be more useful than making the services faster top speed.

That would be excellent, along with grade separation of the junctions at Didcot East and Wootton Bassett. But I’m not sure the appetite will be there politically after the electrification delays. And certain parts of Didcot - Wootton Bassett just don’t appear to have the space for an extra couple of tracks without some clever/expensive engineering (particularly at Steventon with the ‘infamous’ bridge and level crossings).

cle · 27 Aug 2018

HowardGWR said:
Reading Mintona's posting, 4 tracking from Didcot to Wootton Bassett would seem to be more useful than making the services faster top speed.

At that point, then perhaps a second service category (such as the GN Peterboroughs or the Corbys) could operate fast to Reading and then all stations to Swindon, as Oxford/Newbury will be, perhaps even with a reinstated station or two (eg for Wantage). There would definitely be capacity. And Swindon itself will have terminating platform capacity if all Golden Valley services end up running through to London.

Charlie M. · 28 Aug 2018

I’m starting to loose my rag with people who compare the planned new timetables with the 35 year old ones.

Firstly, ATP didn’t exist. With HST power they could have done 130, 135 if the driver didn’t really care. So could the 800s do 135, 140 on electric if it was permitted. As well as that, there are more speed restrictions now, Ladbrook Grove, Reading, Swindon and I think there is one near Wooten Basset.

And traffic would be really tight and a five minute late Cheltenham London train could delay a Parkway London train up to 10 minutes if it doesn’t get the Swindon Didcot path.

I massively support four track swicot, the amount of times I have been sat on a HST looking out of the window at Swindon waiting for a clear path. Biggest delay was because of a points failure and a freight train got the path in front of us, and a Penzance train on the track in front (Newbury blockage) ended up 29 minutes late between Swindon and Didcot.

cambsy · 28 Aug 2018

I agree with Charlie M about comparing old timetables for HST with future timetable for GWR 800s.

Today's railway is so much different. In many ways, London-Bristol has become a commuter corridor with more stops added to cater for the demand.

Trains are lot more frequent, so getting a clear fast path is hard, there is ATP which prevents speeding, I think no more than 3mph over line speed, it's the same as TASS on WCML.

The pay is good now so no driver going to risk job for bit of speeding, there are many ways to track speed of trains, ie black boxes, radar guns etc, and physical governors to limit speed of trains.

Sso except for pathing, performance and recovery time, there is little a driver can do to make up time.

In decades gone by timetables indeed had some very exciting timings, which required hard nosed driving, Speeding, in the event of delays, occurred to keep to the timetable. When the HST were new their speed was unrestricted and could reach about 140mph but due to damaging engines they were governed down around 125mph.

There are logs of 135mph plus HST runs on the GWR back in the 1970s.

So the future GWR timetable looks interesting and should give some exciting running, but it wont take much to affect the path of the London-Bristol Parkway non stop runs, and the timings will probably only be kept sometimes, as often a tardy stopper etc will get in the way, or too may speed restrictions. Just have to hope the padding is enough to soak up most minor delays or they will mostly run late.

Bristol Parkway to London Paddington journey times

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