Northern Class 323 Diagrams

Loop & Link · 21 Aug 2018

Now the Warrington Bank Quay services are back in the timetable after being temporarily taken out, 323’s commenced their booked diagrams this week into Liverpool on some Bank Quay’s and Crewe services.

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Starmill · 22 Aug 2018

prod_pep said:
323238 had earlier formed the 1512 Warrington B.Q. - Liverpool Lime Street today, while the 1200 Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington B.Q. was also a 323.

Wait a minute they're actually running? I thought the daytime ones were all cancelled until September? Normally I'm surprised to discover that a train has been removed, not reinstated!

323228 just left Manchester Airport apparently working the 0859 to Liverpool Lime Street - it was also showing Liverpool Lime Street on its roller blind.

Loop & Link · 22 Aug 2018

They were supposed to be!

But looks like they’ve been phased in earlier than expected.

So the booked 323 workings on 11:00/12:00/14:00 Lime St-Warrington BQ etc, and 08:16/09:16/11:16 Crewe-Lime St, 13:28/14:28/16:28 Lime St-Crewe will now all happen.

Starmill · 22 Aug 2018

Splendid. I suppose a bit of good news is overdue in these parts! Thanks.

YorkshireBear · 22 Aug 2018

The route clearence was signed off this week apparently.

jonesy3001 · 23 Aug 2018

Just a shame that the 323s are leaving the franchise at the end of the year.

prod_pep · 23 Aug 2018

Just to clarify, are the above workings (post #33) booked to be 323s this coming Bank Holiday Monday, 27th August (and subsequent Saturdays) please?

I'm hoping to take a 323 to Warrington, changing at Earlestown on the way back for a second one on the subsequent Crewe - Liverpool run if possible.

Starmill · 23 Aug 2018

prod_pep said:
Just to clarify, are the above workings (post #33) booked to be 323s this coming Bank Holiday Monday, 27th August (and subsequent Saturdays) please?

Given the subsequent Saturdays are strike days, I wouldn't count on it.

prod_pep · 27 Aug 2018

prod_pep said:
Just to clarify, are the above workings (post #33) booked to be 323s this coming Bank Holiday Monday, 27th August (and subsequent Saturdays) please?

Answering my own question here, but the three 323 diagrams did run today: 323234, 229 and 233 doing the honours. 323233 had technical difficulties on the 11.17 from Crewe, ran direct from Earlestown to Lime Street and was promptly declared a failure, unable to run the 14.02 Warrington. Looks like it's running again on the 16.28 back to Crewe, albeit 13 late off Lime Street.

The 319s didn't appear to be doing any better: two 150s substituting today, one on Wigan turns and the other Liverpool - Blackpool North. Both were just 2 cars and packed.

nw-sparks · 27 Aug 2018

prod_pep said:
Answering my own question here, but the three 323 diagrams did run today: 323234, 229 and 233 doing the honours. 323233 had technical difficulties on the 11.17 from Crewe, ran direct from Earlestown to Lime Street and was promptly declared a failure, unable to run the 14.02 Warrington. Looks like it's running again on the 16.28 back to Crewe, albeit 13 late off Lime Street.

The cancellation of the 14.02 was announced as due to a shortage of train crew. And only announced at 14.01. However, I did note a bloke in orange looking at it and talking on the phone earlier, so a failure sounds more likely. TRUST agrees with you as well.

prod_pep · 27 Aug 2018

nw-sparks said:
The cancellation of the 14.02 was announced as due to a shortage of train crew. And only announced at 14.01. However, I did note a bloke in orange looking at it and talking on the phone earlier, so a failure sounds more likely. TRUST agrees with you as well.

RTT offers "problem with the on-board safety systems". As you say, it was met by an engineer at Lime Street who was looking at the rear cab. "Shortage of train crew" does seem to be the go-to excuse with the announcements these days, not surprisingly.

Puffing Devil · 28 Aug 2018

jonesy3001 said:
Just a shame that the 323s are leaving the franchise at the end of the year.

But hey - we've got those great 319s to replace them! Smelly, slower, southern surplus. I note they have new trains on their routes.

mic505 · 28 Aug 2018

You forgot to mention the 331's that are replacing the 323's.

Jack Jolley · 29 Aug 2018

Starmill said:
Hello all

I'm aware there are significant changes to Northern EMU diagrams in the North West following yesterday's timetable change.

Can anyone offer a heads up, either in summary or in detail, as to what the 323's new work will broadly consist of? I spotted one working to Hazel Grove on Sunday. Will any 323s work the long long round circuit that includes the Crewe to Liverpool Lime Street via Manchester Airport services?

There was talking at one time that they might work Blackpool North services, but this doesn't seem clear at this time.

Come tomorrow it may all become fairly obvious, but I'm grateful for any direction.

Thanks

Starmill

323-231, 323-227 and a couple more I have seen in the last week or so running Liverpool to Warrington Bank Quey services

tom1649 · 29 Aug 2018

Puffing Devil said:
But hey - we've got those great 319s to replace them! Smelly, slower, southern surplus. I note they have new trains on their routes.

Still better than a 142 or a 150 though. 323s are brilliant, I don't understand why they'd want to get rid of them.

LNW-GW Joint · 29 Aug 2018

tom1649 said:
I don't understand why they'd want to get rid of them.

No money and no need (after 331s arrive).
Not enough 323s to displace all the 319s, Northern don't want 3 electric fleets.
319s essential as 769s, thanks to electrification cancellation.
323s not available from Porterbrook (at the time contracts were signed).

Greybeard33 · 29 Aug 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
No money and no need (after 331s arrive).
Not enough 323s to displace all the 319s, Northern don't want 3 electric fleets.
319s essential as 769s, thanks to electrification cancellation.
323s not available from Porterbrook (at the time contracts were signed).

Including the WMT fleet, there are 43 323s, versus Northern's total of 35 319s (including those earmarked for 769 conversion). Porterbrook owns both fleets and is presumably in breach of contract due to the delay in the 769 programme.

It might be quicker to finish wiring Lostock to Wigan and Victoria to Stalybridge (projects not formally cancelled) than to wait for the 769s to eventually appear!

Edgeley · 29 Aug 2018

tom1649 said:
Still better than a 142 or a 150 though. 323s are brilliant, I don't understand why they'd want to get rid of them.

The seating in 323s isn't great but overall they're good, sprightly little trains and Northern should hang on to them as long as needed.

prod_pep · 29 Aug 2018

Having now ridden quite a few 323s I can safely say they are vastly superior to the 319s. I quite like the seating actually as it doesn't feel lower than a primary school chair unlike the 319s.

The 323s are warmer, more comfortable and their swift acceleration is welcome on the Liverpool - Warrington and Crewe stoppers which really expose how pitiful the 319s are off the mark.

I know it's unlikely, but in an ideal world I'd much prefer the 323s to stay on and be made compliant, the Birmingham ones added once withdrawn and as many 319s moved on as possible.

Puffing Devil · 29 Aug 2018

prod_pep said:
Having now ridden quite a few 323s I can safely say they are vastly superior to the 319s. I quite like the seating actually as it doesn't feel lower than a primary school chair unlike the 319s.

The 323s are warmer, more comfortable and their swift acceleration is welcome on the Liverpool - Warrington and Crewe stoppers which really expose how pitiful the 319s are off the mark.

I know it's unlikely, but in an ideal world I'd much prefer the 323s to stay on and be made compliant, the Birmingham ones added once withdrawn and as many 319s moved on as possible.

Agreed - the Crewe stopper is a regular train for me and I loathe the 319s. They have an unpleasant smell and the seating is poor, unless you catch on of the very few with an unconverted first class section.

Any ideas when these trains will be moved on?

507021 · 29 Aug 2018

Puffing Devil said:
Any ideas when these trains will be moved on?

There are no plans for the 319s to be replaced during the current franchise.

Starmill · 29 Aug 2018

507021 said:
There are no plans for the 319s to be replaced during the current franchise.

Technically plenty of them will be displayed by class 331 introduction. We don't know where the few that remain exactly will work though.

NorthWestRover · 29 Aug 2018

So, what are the 323s working? Or has it not settled down?

mic505 · 30 Aug 2018

Deleted.

NorthWestRover · 3 Sep 2018

323 233/234/238 on these today.

Chester1 · 4 Sep 2018

Edgeley said:
The seating in 323s isn't great but overall they're good, sprightly little trains and Northern should hang on to them as long as needed.

The 331s are due to start entering service in December so if that goes to schedule they won't be needed much longer. They have slightly less capacity than 319s too. They are awkwardly placed between 319s and 331s. I like them and use them regularly but I can see why the rolling stock plan has not been revised. 2 classes of EMU for the north west is enough choice and complication. Keeping the class 323s over 319s would have meant a drop in capacity on many routes.

sgraIRL · 4 Sep 2018

If its any help
Date Dept From Plat App To Plat Opp Unit Service
23-Jun-18 09:39 Birmingham New Street 6b 09:47 Smethwick Galton Bridge LL 3 West Midlands Trains 323222 2W14 09:01 West Midlands Trains service from Walsall to Wolverhampton
23-Jun-18 13:15 Birmingham New Street 8b 13:22 Aston 1 West Midlands Trains 323202 2U43 12:32 West Midlands Trains service from Redditch to Four Oaks
23-Jun-18 13:33 Aston 2 13:41 Birmingham New Street 12b West Midlands Trains 323243 2R47 13:16 West Midlands Trains service from Four Oaks to Redditch
23-Jun-18 14:05 University 1 14:09 Five Ways 1 West Midlands Trains 323240 2U49 13:32 West Midlands Trains service from Redditch to Four Oaks
23-Jun-18 14:19 Five Ways 1 14:22 Birmingham New Street 8a West Midlands Trains 323212 2P50 13:51 West Midlands Trains service from Longbridge to Lichfield Trent Valley
07-Jul-18 10:06 Stockport 4 10:17 Manchester Piccadilly 10 Northern 323228 2W06 Northern service from Alderley Edge to Manchester Piccadilly
07-Jul-18 10:29 Manchester Piccadilly 1 10:32 Ashburys 1 Northern 323239 2G10 Northern service from Manchester Piccadilly to Hadfield

sgraIRL · 4 Sep 2018

Sorry I meant to cut out the WMT ones

Another confirmed Northern 323 is
09:44 Man Picc to Stoke on Trent

prod_pep · 4 Sep 2018

sgraIRL said:
Another confirmed Northern 323 is
09:44 Man Picc to Stoke on Trent

323s are regulars on the Manchester-Stoke turns.

My observations from last Friday showed 9 of the Northern 323s in off-peak service: 3 on Hadfield, 3 on Stoke and 3 on the Liverpool/Warrington/Crewe/Manchester/Hazel Grove circuit. They add 2 in the evening peak to Hadfield and I think 2 more do peak runs to Alderley Edge, Macclesfield etc.

This totals 13 of the 17 units required, which tallies with an older 323 thread.

For the record, 323237 was on the 1200 Lime Street - Warrington B.Q. and 323234 is about to form the 1628 Lime Street - Crewe today.

vlad · 4 Sep 2018

prod_pep said:
323s are regulars on the Manchester-Stoke turns.

They're the only things Northern can run between Manchester and Stoke as nothing else can keep to time.

If they do put anything different on then it won't go further south than Macclesfield, even if it's timetabled to go further.

Northern Class 323 Diagrams

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