ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

jingsmonty · 28 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Further to what all the defenders of HSTs have been waffling on about, I'm currently on an LNER HST, in Coach M next to the power car, and the ride is *absolutely bloody awful*. The suspension is bouncing all over the place, pulling away was jerky and shuddery, and there's incessant squeaking and rattling from the gangway connections that is extremely grating, far more so than the constant but not particularly loud noise from underfloor engines in modern trains.

The EMT 222 I was on earlier was vastly superior.

The HSTs are coming...deal with it!

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jingsmonty · 28 Aug 2018

Clansman said:
Anyone who knows the quality of infrastructure along the routes the HSTs will operate on up here will know all too well that no rolling stock, both old, refurbished, or brand spanking new, will make any difference to the overall ride quality.

Usan and Carmont, I'm looking at you.

This probably has a lot more to do with the ride quality than a Mk3 bogie...I've never really had any negative feelings about ride quality on the HML, be it a DMU or a Mk3.

Ride quality may become an issue with the Scotrail HSTs as there are locations where they will reach speeds that a 158/170 never could manage!

Journeyman · 28 Aug 2018

jingsmonty said:
The HSTs are coming...deal with it!

Right, so I should put up with noise and bad ride quality just to keep the anoraks happy?

I just had to move seats - the ride was so poor it spilt my drink everywhere.

Bletchleyite · 28 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Right, so I should put up with noise and bad ride quality just to keep the anoraks happy?

I just had to move seats - the ride was so poor it spilt my drink everywhere.

Now try a Mk4?

Last time I went on one the ride was worse (on CWR) than a Pacer.

Journeyman · 28 Aug 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Now try a Mk4?

Last time I went on one the ride was worse (on CWR) than a Pacer.

I've never had a problem with them myself. They're quieter than this, and I've never had drinks fly everywhere.

theblackwatch · 28 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Right, so I should put up with noise and bad ride quality just to keep the anoraks happy?

I just had to move seats - the ride was so poor it spilt my drink everywhere.

Maybe you should complain to the TOC? You could even mention to them about them procuring a fleet of trains to make some coats happy, but it might make you look a bit stupid.

Geoff DC · 28 Aug 2018

I had 4 x 2hr journeys on GWR 2+8 HST's last week between Penzance & Plymouth - all on time, extremely smooth, very comfortable & pretty quiet, agree about the squeak in the gangways but the sound is muffled by the door into the seated area.
I've never noticed any reliability issues down this way with the GWR HSTs & pretty sure people will be very pleased when they are in service

Grumpy · 28 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Further to what all the defenders of HSTs have been waffling on about, I'm currently on an LNER HST, in Coach M next to the power car, and the ride is *absolutely bloody awful*. The suspension is bouncing all over the place, pulling away was jerky and shuddery, and there's incessant squeaking and rattling from the gangway connections that is extremely grating, far more so than the constant but not particularly loud noise from underfloor engines in modern trains.

The EMT 222 I was on earlier was vastly superior.

Ian Walmsley mentions this in the September Modern Railways magazine. Apparently they have been fitting a different type of damper which whilst cheap don't do the job properly -hence the rough ride

route:oxford · 28 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Further to what all the defenders of HSTs have been waffling on about, I'm currently on an LNER HST, in Coach M next to the power car, and the ride is *absolutely bloody awful*. The suspension is bouncing all over the place, pulling away was jerky and shuddery, and there's incessant squeaking and rattling from the gangway connections that is extremely grating, far more so than the constant but not particularly loud noise from underfloor engines in modern trains.

Isn't coach M always terrible on East Coast?

Journeyman · 28 Aug 2018

route:oxford said:
Isn't coach M always terrible on East Coast?

I don't know, but if it is, whatever coaches are next to the power cars will be terrible on ScotRail as well.

Paul Kerr · 28 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Well, the people opposite me were very unhappy and were complaining to the staff, who had to apologise about the "old train".

My point - a perfectly valid one, after my glass jumped off the table twice and made a mess - is that the HST is a bad choice.

One data point based on a ride in an unrefurbished coach close to being taken out of service with what appears to be a cheap replacement bogie damper hardly qualifies as justification your blanket statement that using a refurbished HST is a bad choice. I think it would behoove you to wait until the trains are in regular service and we will have data with them running alongside 80x units and other MU variants so it will be clear which is better. Also, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from referring to HST supporters as "anoraks". We obviously disagree about the choice that has been made and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but we can always be civil about it can we not?

Mingulay · 28 Aug 2018

Paul Kerr said:
One data point based on a ride in an unrefurbished coach close to being taken out of service with what appears to be a cheap replacement bogie damper hardly qualifies as justification your blanket statement that using a refurbished HST is a bad choice. I think it would behoove you to wait until the trains are in regular service and we will have data with them running alongside 80x units and other MU variants so it will be clear which is better. Also, I would appreciate it if you would refrain from referring to HST supporters as "anoraks". We obviously disagree about the choice that has been made and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but we can always be civil about it can we not?

Not a train anorak . But I welcome the HST albeit late delivery once again. Fail to see the attraction of the miserable 158. Only thing worse than a 158 is a refurbished 158 with the legroom for toddlers . Shockingly poor job those refurbs.

Phil G · 28 Aug 2018

Sounds like you may have experienced a faulty carriage, until the 800s took over I've travelled on GWR hsts every day and the ride is excellent smooth and quiet and I assume they will have some maintenance as part of the refurb. The 800s however shake and vibrate at high speed although I do like them.

Bletchleyite · 28 Aug 2018

Mingulay said:
Not a train anorak . But I welcome the HST albeit late delivery once again. Fail to see the attraction of the miserable 158. Only thing worse than a 158 is a refurbished 158 with the legroom for toddlers . Shockingly poor job those refurbs.

The Inverness ones and the Haymarket ones are like chalk and cheese. The former are excellent, the latter are garbage.

Northhighland · 28 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Well, the people opposite me were very unhappy and were complaining to the staff, who had to apologise about the "old train".

My point - a perfectly valid one, after my glass jumped off the table twice and made a mess - is that the HST is a bad choice.

As others have pointed out, the choice has been made. Had you had the pleasure of an afternoon train out of Edinburgh or Glasgow to Inverness thins summer rammed with bikes, luggage and tourists with people standing you would have probably jumped at a swap for an HST.

Each do their own, but they are a lot better than the 170's.

BRX · 28 Aug 2018

Best idea of what the SR coaches might be like would surely come from a ride in a refurbed Chiltern mk3 rather than an EC set close to being taken out of service.

Wst71Pa2 · 28 Aug 2018

Clansman said:
Usan and Carmont, I'm looking at you.

Muchalls mill, Buckie Den, Lunan Bay viaducts... Etc etc etc

jingsmonty · 29 Aug 2018

Journeyman said:
Right, so I should put up with noise and bad ride quality just to keep the anoraks happy?

I just had to move seats - the ride was so poor it spilt my drink everywhere.

Have you considered that it may have just been an issue with that coach? Maybe it needed tyre turning? Personally, I've never experienced an issue like that on a Mk3.
I've experienced good & bad ride quality on DMUs too...

jingsmonty · 29 Aug 2018

Northhighland said:
As others have pointed out, the choice has been made. Had you had the pleasure of an afternoon train out of Edinburgh or Glasgow to Inverness thins summer rammed with bikes, luggage and tourists with people standing you would have probably jumped at a swap for an HST.

Each do their own, but they are a lot better than the 170's.

Exactly this. An HST service will be so much better than what is currently on offer. You can't even rely on the toilets working on the later Class 170 departures (they have been running about all day without tanking, never mind luggage space & seats!

And for those who say that the toilet issue will occur with the refurbished HST sets, the tanks will be over twice as large as what's on a 170....

Northhighland · 29 Aug 2018

On LNER to Edinburgh just now from Inverness. Journey is very calm and peaceful, quiet, no drone of the engine, yes a few rattles and squeaks but way better than Scotrail. Will be on the return tonight. Had a excellent bacon roll and a cup of tea, last week on Scotrail not even a sandwich on offer.

HST will be a step change for Scottish intercity services and will help persuade people to leave their cars behind. The issue will be when they have to be replaced there will be a struggle to get something as good.

Also on the toilets the HST will have considerably more than one toilet per train.

Scotrail88 · 29 Aug 2018

Will the HSTs have electronic seat reservations so we don’t have the - no reservations on this service spoiling the upgraded service

jingsmonty · 29 Aug 2018

Northhighland said:
On LNER to Edinburgh just now from Inverness. Journey is very calm and peaceful, quiet, no drone of the engine, yes a few rattles and squeaks but way better than Scotrail. Will be on the return tonight. Had a excellent bacon roll and a cup of tea, last week on Scotrail not even a sandwich on offer.

HST will be a step change for Scottish intercity services and will help persuade people to leave their cars behind. The issue will be when they have to be replaced there will be a struggle to get something as good.

Also on the toilets the HST will have considerably more than one toilet per train.

Exactly - that's been my usual experience as well. Those of us who use the HML will surely appreciate the strength of the HST Step Change upgrade. Often on a busy Class 170 (12.53 Inverness - Edinburgh springs to mind), especially in the Summer, the trolley often can't make it's way through the train (or even board it, in some cases).

jingsmonty · 29 Aug 2018

Scotrail88 said:
Will the HSTs have electronic seat reservations so we don’t have the - no reservations on this service spoiling the upgraded service

Agree that it's extremely frustrating when a train isn't labelled for reservations (I used to be a Conductor, so I know exactly how much grief this causes both passengers & staff!), but one flaw with electronic reservations is that you can't see what seats are reserved untion you actually board the train....with the paper ones, you can see through he window before boarding & being trapped in a fully reserved coach (& the unreserved seats going by the time you get there....).

Fair point though....

43096 · 29 Aug 2018

jingsmonty said:
Agree that it's extremely frustrating when a train isn't labelled for reservations (I used to be a Conductor, so I know exactly how much grief this causes both passengers & staff!), but one flaw with electronic reservations is that you can't see what seats are reserved untion you actually board the train....with the paper ones, you can see through he window before boarding & being trapped in a fully reserved coach (& the unreserved seats going by the time you get there....).

Fair point though....

Another flaw is if the train isn’t set up correctly until just before departure - passengers without a seat res have no way of knowing if a seat is reserved or not. With labels, station staff can put them on before the crew arrive so at least you can see which seats are taken.

Craig2601 · 29 Aug 2018

jingsmonty said:
Agree that it's extremely frustrating when a train isn't labelled for reservations (I used to be a Conductor, so I know exactly how much grief this causes both passengers & staff!), but one flaw with electronic reservations is that you can't see what seats are reserved untion you actually board the train....with the paper ones, you can see through he window before boarding & being trapped in a fully reserved coach (& the unreserved seats going by the time you get there....).

Fair point though....

Agree about this, very handy to see on the platform before you board so you don’t end up trapped in a reserved coach while somebody tries to put away all their belongings and by the time their finished all the unreserved seats are gone. One way of fixing this is when they have the little indicators on departure boards showing which coaches are reserved, though this doesn’t seem to have reached Scotrail yet...

D1009 · 29 Aug 2018

Scotrail88 said:
Will the HSTs have electronic seat reservations so we don’t have the - no reservations on this service spoiling the upgraded service

Don't know but I can say that on GWR there are a considerably greater number of trains running without seat reservations as a result of the introduction of electronic seat reservations on the 800s.

Stoney1979 · 29 Aug 2018

Northhighland said:
On LNER to Edinburgh just now from Inverness. Journey is very calm and peaceful, quiet, no drone of the engine, yes a few rattles and squeaks but way better than Scotrail. Will be on the return tonight. Had a excellent bacon roll and a cup of tea, last week on Scotrail not even a sandwich on offer.

HST will be a step change for Scottish intercity services and will help persuade people to leave their cars behind. The issue will be when they have to be replaced there will be a struggle to get something as good.

Also on the toilets the HST will have considerably more than one toilet per train.

I think those of us who use the HML regularly, particularly the Perth - Inverness bit are, perhaps, the ones looking forward to the HST intro the most. In terms of capacity and quality of experience from what we have now, the step-change will be absolutely massive (for the better, assuming reliability etc etc is OK).

Northhighland · 29 Aug 2018

jingsmonty said:
Exactly - that's been my usual experience as well. Those of us who use the HML will surely appreciate the strength of the HST Step Change upgrade. Often on a busy Class 170 (12.53 Inverness - Edinburgh springs to mind), especially in the Summer, the trolley often can't make it's way through the train (or even board it, in some cases).

Agreed, I also think the proposed timetable change will be transformational, if we have an hourly service from Perth and HST life will be considerably better and I would put up with some reliability issues. But the maintenance teams do a great job just now and I am confident they will match GWR teams in a short time.

Just North of Aviemore just now and have worked steady form Edinburgh in the peace. Cant concentrate to work on a 170 in the same way. If only Wabtec could get the finger out........

Macwomble · 29 Aug 2018

Northhighland said:
If only Wabtec could get the finger out........

& so say all of us

Bletchleyite · 29 Aug 2018

D1009 said:
Don't know but I can say that on GWR there are a considerably greater number of trains running without seat reservations as a result of the introduction of electronic seat reservations on the 800s.

Same as Voyagers and Pendolinos, where they seem to not work more often than they work. Mind you Voyagers are a late 1990s design, and Pendolinos a late 1990s/early 2000s one - one would hope technology had improved a bit since then!

ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

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