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Disabled Tanyalee Davis - more rail travel woes.

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pt_mad

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I must admit I didn’t realise the categories included “luggage”. So a strapping bloke in their 20s or 30s could request assistance for help with baggage?

That seems a tad ridiculous.

To be fair to the booking system 'luggage' is not often booked as a category by itself.
It's usually either acomponied by a category from above, mostly Elderly, sometimes Mobility Impaired, sometimes another disability and occasionally non-disabled.

Where I've seen it to be say a young family going to Scarborough with tonnes of luggage who freely introduce themselves as non disabled, they quite often tell that they had to push on the phone to get the assistance booked but reluctantly it was offered.


I suppose the poster above's scenario where their companion has arthritis but doesn't classify themselves as disabled could easily be booked under the category Mobility Impaired on the system.

Removing the Elderly and luggage as standalone categories from the system I don't think would have any bearing on people with genuine conditions to get the help they needed whatsoever.

It would however reduce the number of bookings, and logic says if you are unable to increase the staffing and there's a way to better utilise the staff towards those who need it, then offering a disabled assist service rather than a passenger assist service may be the only easy fix to reducing mistakes down from one in five.
 
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Bromley boy

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Not even that, just a note that lateness etc. can cause extreme anxiety and being sympathetic and re-assuring is the best thing, even if the only thing is to say "we are obliged to get you to your destination if we can't provide a service".

Note that most staff do do that anyway. I don't want to sound as if all staff are gits. They really aren't.

I completely get it - the anxiety experienced by an autistic person is far greater than that experienced by a “neurotypical” (as you know far better than I!).

There are many characteristics of the condition that might be misconstrued: the obsessional nature; the craving for certainty; the stiltedness; the need to repeat the same question many times to gain reassurance.

I know it when I see it because I have personal experience but most railstaff do not. That’s something I’d like to be addressed.

You should mention your condition to onboard staff, of course, but it would be better if they could recognise it for themselves.
 
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Bromley boy

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Removing the Elderly and luggage as standalone categories from the system I don't think would have any bearing on people with genuine conditions to get the help they needed whatsoever.

“Elderly” seems reasonable, “luggage”, not so much.

Perhaps “luggage” should only be available when added to one of the other categories as a “+” e.g. elderly + luggage, disabled + luggage.

“Elderly” could be defined as 70+.

The system as it stands sounds completely unworkable, with scope for far too many spurious bookings.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Removing the Elderly and luggage as standalone categories from the system I don't think would have any bearing on people with genuine conditions to get the help they needed whatsoever.

It would however reduce the number of bookings, and logic says if you are unable to increase the staffing and there's a way to better utilise the staff towards those who need it, then offering a disabled assist service rather than a passenger assist service may be the only easy fix to reducing mistakes down from one in five.

Or if people *want* assistance and are not disabled, a fee could be introduced, the proceeds from which could pay for more staff?
 

Bantamzen

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Or if people *want* assistance and are not disabled, a fee could be introduced, the proceeds from which could pay for more staff?

But would that leave potential grey areas, not to mention an unequal service where equality is often cited*? In terms of grey areas someone not registered as disabled, but still having say a temporary medical condition or injury might find themselves having to pay through no fault of their own. Its a can of worms that doesn't want opening in my humble opinion. No, as I said a bit up-thread, better communications to station staff & train crews as required would hopefully negate a lot of the problems were staff have be otherwise occupied or simply forgotten that assistance has been booked.

(*This is just playing Devil's advocate BTW, but equality does work both ways)
 

OneOffDave

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But would that leave potential grey areas, not to mention an unequal service where equality is often cited*? In terms of grey areas someone not registered as disabled, but still having say a temporary medical condition or injury might find themselves having to pay through no fault of their own. Its a can of worms that doesn't want opening in my humble opinion. No, as I said a bit up-thread, better communications to station staff & train crews as required would hopefully negate a lot of the problems were staff have be otherwise occupied or simply forgotten that assistance has been booked.

(*This is just playing Devil's advocate BTW, but equality does work both ways)

Just to note that being 'registered' disabled ceased to exist following the introduction of the DDA 1995. Not that that stops all kinds of organisations still using the phrase
 

Bletchleyite

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Just to note that being 'registered' disabled ceased to exist following the introduction of the DDA 1995. Not that that stops all kinds of organisations still using the phrase

Which in a way is a shame, as having a German style "proof of disability card" would solve most of the kinds of argument that seem to come about.
 

Bantamzen

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Just to note that being 'registered' disabled ceased to exist following the introduction of the DDA 1995. Not that that stops all kinds of organisations still using the phrase

Ah, I wasn't aware of that so thanks for the info. This makes it all but impossible for TOCs to implement limitations such as @Bletchleyite suggested. In which case the communications issue is all the more important, as the categories used in the booking need to be transmitted to all concerned so that where multiple bookings and/or other duties conflict, priority can be given to those with potentially the greatest needs.
 

OneOffDave

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Being registered disabled referred to the Green Card scheme administered by the Manpower Services Commission when there was the quota scheme in place for employing disabled people where companies over a certain size had to have 3% (IIRC) of their workforce made up of registered disabled people.
 

pt_mad

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Just to note that being 'registered' disabled ceased to exist following the introduction of the DDA 1995. Not that that stops all kinds of organisations still using the phrase

Ah, I wasn't aware of that so thanks for the info. This makes it all but impossible for TOCs to implement limitations such as @Bletchleyite suggested. In which case the communications issue is all the more important, as the categories used in the booking need to be transmitted to all concerned so that where multiple bookings and/or other duties conflict, priority can be given to those with potentially the greatest needs.

There must be a way that disabled passengers prove they have a disability as they do this when they apply for a disabled person's railcard. As I understand it the disability has to be proven when applying for this railcard. Do we know how they have to do this?

Also a disability has to be proven to local authorities when requesting a disabled RADAR key for accessible toilets. How is this proven to the council?


Where it was mentioned that a disabled only assistance service could potentially leave some people illegible for the service, such as those who don't classify themselves as disabled but who may be impaired in some way or have an injury etc, I would suggest that this would come under the 'Mobility Impaired' category, which would remain.
So any physical impairment which didn't mean a person was necessarily disabled, would be able to be booked under Mobility Impaired which would cover any physical impairment whatsoever.

For mental health where someone may need assistance due to severe nervousness etc, it could be booked under 'non disabled, guidance' and in the area where the details are contained below it would say 'passenger nervous, guidance needed' etc which I have seen quite a few times before. So that would stand obviously and rightly so.


Someone above suggested 'Elderly' would probably be someone over age 70. But this is all speculation. I've seen many a time people who appear in their 50s have assistance booked under just the categories Elderly and Luggage. As I say date of births are not checked or requested on booking. So my brother in his 50s could just book elderly luggage assistance for him and his Mrs to carry their cases and find them a seat, and they wouldn't be challenged and it'd have to be given per the current system. But it does mean teams are often pushed because practically everyone who knows the categories can book the assistance under Elderly if they are over say aged 50 whether the truly need it or not.

I mean lets think about it. In the days of porters as I understand it you probably had to pay for the service, possibly give the porter some coins or whatever for their services. This must have been because having someone handle your luggage was a popular and attractive service. Now the system today is that the same service is offered for free to anyone who says they are elderly, in their own opinion as the system doesn't go by any age. I know people who say 'I'm an old man' who are in their early 50s.
Now that is an attractive offer to a lot of Elderly passengers or people who would classify themselves as old be it in their 60s or whatever, and its free. Who wouldn't want their cases pulled, lifted on and a seat found for them and someone to get them off and move them around the station at all points for free if it was offered? And it is. Word spreads and more and more passengers have heard about the system that it can be booked as Elderly luggage if you classify yourself as Elderly.

I know a poster above said well Elderly seems a reasonable category. Maybe so but the question is: Can the system reasonably offer luggage and a full chaperones service to all passengers who classify themselves as old who wish to travel? With an ageing population? There's no way it can or could. And mistakes are being made one in five we are told. Its no surprise.

It may sound harsh but Elderly does not mean disabled.


If I took my dad to the local garden centre they have made the paths flat, and there are wheelchairs available where I could push him around. But there's no service where I can request a member of staff takes care of them, I disappear and they take them around the garden centre and I collect them later. Likewise at a restaurant they would make it accessible, but I couldn't leave the care of my parents in their hands until they leave the premises.

As someone else pointed out once before, the railway cannot offer a carers service. They have a duty of care for the safety of customers in terms of the safe operation of the railway of course. And the assistance service works to ensure as many parts of the railway service are accessible to as many people as possible. But they cannot ensure the care of any passenger in the way say a carer could when they take residents out from a care home for example.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Anyone can purchase a RADAR key online, by the way. The only difference between disabled and non-disabled is that if you are non-disabled you have to pay 20% VAT on it. Such a thing might not be an entirely silly purchase for e.g. a parent with a baby, to more easily access a safe changing location.
 

pt_mad

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Anyone can purchase a RADAR key online, by the way. The only difference between disabled and non-disabled is that if you are non-disabled you have to pay 20% VAT on it. Such a thing might not be an entirely silly purchase for e.g. a parent with a baby, to more easily access a safe changing location.

True, but if requesting one from the councils, you are asked to prove your disability.

So what I'm saying it, there must be a way of proving it. Same with the disabled person's railcard and bus pass. Some TOCs now offer a free priority seat card, where customers can apply for a card which says they are entitled to a priority seat where they are not already taken by someone else in need. And the TOC asks them to prove their disability to receive one. So there must be a way their disability is shown before these things are issued?
 

OneOffDave

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There must be a way that disabled passengers prove they have a disability as they do this when they apply for a disabled person's railcard. As I understand it the disability has to be proven when applying for this railcard. Do we know how they have to do this?

Also a disability has to be proven to local authorities when requesting a disabled RADAR key for accessible toilets. How is this proven to the council?

To qualify for a Disabled person's railcard you must meet the criteria below
railcard.co.uk said:
The Disabled Persons Railcard is for people with a disability that makes travelling by train difficult.

You will qualify if you:

  • receive Personal Independence Payments (PIP)
  • receive Disability Living Allowance (DLA) at either:
    • the higher or lower rate for the mobility component, or
    • the higher or middle rate for the care component
  • have a visual impairment
  • have a hearing impairment
  • have epilepsy
  • receive Attendance Allowance or Severe Disablement Allowance
  • receive War Pensioner's Mobility Supplement
  • receive War or Service Disablement Pension for 80% or more disability
  • buy or lease a vehicle through the Motability scheme

All of these come with the appropriate documentation. It'd be a massive headache if, every time you wanted to book assistance, you had to provide copies of those to the assistance service.
 

Bletchleyite

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All of these come with the appropriate documentation. It'd be a massive headache if, every time you wanted to book assistance, you had to provide copies of those to the assistance service.

The easiest way would probably be some kind of membership scheme. For the piddling amount that charging £30 a year probably brings in, they might as well make it a free Disabled Railcard.

(FWIW my Dad has a DSB, was quite surprised but apparently even a minor-ish hearing impediment counts - he has a hearing aid in one ear)
 

pt_mad

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To qualify for a Disabled person's railcard you must meet the criteria below


All of these come with the appropriate documentation. It'd be a massive headache if, every time you wanted to book assistance, you had to provide copies of those to the assistance service.

That is very very true and wouldn't be practical. But just by asking the question which category, and having only categories which apply to people in genuine need, imo it would do a lot to address the over demand from those who perhaps use the system just because its there and its free.

If there was a counter at the entrance of an airport with a sign saying 'free baggage carriers service, ask us here and we'll take the strain, for all Elderly persons' then how long until the queues would be out of the door? There'd be too much demand for the staff available and mistakes would be made. Do all the people booking under the standalone Elderly luggage category actually need it or do they book it because its there for free and it means no lifting or handling of cases and you are found a seat?

It does make life very easy for the families etc because theres no need for them to see their relatives off etc which they perhaps used to have to, but it puts extra demand on assistance teams who should perhaps be able to concentrate their limited time and efforts onto those who really need it and couldn't even access the railways without the service.
 

OneOffDave

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The easiest way would probably be some kind of membership scheme. For the piddling amount that charging £30 a year probably brings in, they might as well make it a free Disabled Railcard.

(FWIW my Dad has a DSB, was quite surprised but apparently even a minor-ish hearing impediment counts - he has a hearing aid in one ear)

As long as there's just one scheme for the whole country, that'd be ok.
 

pt_mad

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The easiest way would probably be some kind of membership scheme. For the piddling amount that charging £30 a year probably brings in, they might as well make it a free Disabled Railcard.

(FWIW my Dad has a DSB, was quite surprised but apparently even a minor-ish hearing impediment counts - he has a hearing aid in one ear)

I think Bletchleyite has hit the nail on the head here and may be onto something.

We know that to receive the disabled person's railcard the disability needs to be proven. And thats not classed as unfair and is legal and accessible under the law and the DFT and RDG etc.
So simple solution, make the Disiabled Person's Railcard Free. Double win. Because the person applying for the railcard then gets a complementary discount on all their fares, and then has access to the passenger assistance service.
Then they could be asked for their disabled person's railcard name when booking assistance.

For others in need they would be Eligible for a priority seat card. If this were rolled out nationally, to get one you demonstrate your need to the TOC as is the case already on some tocs which already have this scheme. And when booking assistance tou can give the name on your priority seatcard if you do hot have a disabled persons railcard.

TBH booking is probably what keeps it under control. If it was just a case of "tick here" when booking your ticket I bet almost everyone would.

Thats quite right to some extent. You can't book the assistance on an online page, you have to phone the telephone line. Because I think the aim is to try and establish that assistance requests are genuine by customers having to speak to a human being to be able to book it. And this probably stops say 20 somethings who don't have any impairments or disabilities booking assistance to Blackpool for their luggage and to find a seat.

However, you are only asked what category and the categories may be read out to you. And Elderly is such a widespread category that as I say its basically available to anyone aged 50+ if they themselves would call themselves elderly, which I've seen many times. And that is a case of tick here and you can have it.


ATOC/RDG and DFT etc are in a way kind of hypocritical because they say that they want to publicize the assistance service as much as possible and for all person's to have access to the railway. They give thousands of little telephone number cards to stations which say book free assistance, call this number, which they want to be given out. And yet the reality is the system isn't coping with today's demand without making mistakes. One in five was quoted. So if all these cards were given out, and the service was advertised on the front of their (Tocs) website or on their radio ads etc or posters or on booking hall posters then I believe due to the elderly category being available demand would rocket overnight and the system would totally collapse with the demand. Demand is already increasing hugely every year because word spreads among those who book the service thats its available and free to all elderly if you phone the number and staff will take all the strain and chaperone you.
 
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OneOffDave

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Any system should be able to cope with people like me who commute by train most days. Because it's such a hassle booking every week I now do 6 month block bookings of assistance for every weekday even though I won't do some of those journeys
 
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I think Bletchleyite has hit the nail on the head here and may be onto something.

We know that to receive the disabled person's railcard the disability needs to be proven. And thats not classed as unfair and is legal and accessible under the law and the DFT and RDG etc.
So simple solution, make the Disiabled Person's Railcard Free. Double win. Because the person applying for the railcard then gets a complementary discount on all their fares, and then has access to the passenger assistance service.
Then they could be asked for their disabled person's railcard name when booking assistance.

...

Any ideas for how to go about making the disabled railcard free?
 

EM2

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Any system should be able to cope with people like me who commute by train most days. Because it's such a hassle booking every week I now do 6 month block bookings of assistance for every weekday even though I won't do some of those journeys
Dave, can you book assistance online, or do you have to do it by phone every time?
 

maire23

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There must be a way that disabled passengers prove they have a disability as they do this when they apply for a disabled person's railcard. As I understand it the disability has to be proven when applying for this railcard. Do we know how they have to do this?

Also a disability has to be proven to local authorities when requesting a disabled RADAR key for accessible toilets. How is this proven to the council?


Where it was mentioned that a disabled only assistance service could potentially leave some people illegible for the service, such as those who don't classify themselves as disabled but who may be impaired in some way or have an injury etc, I would suggest that this would come under the 'Mobility Impaired' category, which would remain.
So any physical impairment which didn't mean a person was necessarily disabled, would be able to be booked under Mobility Impaired which would cover any physical impairment whatsoever.

For mental health where someone may need assistance due to severe nervousness etc, it could be booked under 'non disabled, guidance' and in the area where the details are contained below it would say 'passenger nervous, guidance needed' etc which I have seen quite a few times before. So that would stand obviously and rightly so.


Someone above suggested 'Elderly' would probably be someone over age 70. But this is all speculation. I've seen many a time people who appear in their 50s have assistance booked under just the categories Elderly and Luggage. As I say date of births are not checked or requested on booking. So my brother in his 50s could just book elderly luggage assistance for him and his Mrs to carry their cases and find them a seat, and they wouldn't be challenged and it'd have to be given per the current system. But it does mean teams are often pushed because practically everyone who knows the categories can book the assistance under Elderly if they are over say aged 50 whether the truly need it or not.

I mean lets think about it. In the days of porters as I understand it you probably had to pay for the service, possibly give the porter some coins or whatever for their services. This must have been because having someone handle your luggage was a popular and attractive service. Now the system today is that the same service is offered for free to anyone who says they are elderly, in their own opinion as the system doesn't go by any age. I know people who say 'I'm an old man' who are in their early 50s.
Now that is an attractive offer to a lot of Elderly passengers or people who would classify themselves as old be it in their 60s or whatever, and its free. Who wouldn't want their cases pulled, lifted on and a seat found for them and someone to get them off and move them around the station at all points for free if it was offered? And it is. Word spreads and more and more passengers have heard about the system that it can be booked as Elderly luggage if you classify yourself as Elderly.

I know a poster above said well Elderly seems a reasonable category. Maybe so but the question is: Can the system reasonably offer luggage and a full chaperones service to all passengers who classify themselves as old who wish to travel? With an ageing population? There's no way it can or could. And mistakes are being made one in five we are told. Its no surprise.

It may sound harsh but Elderly does not mean disabled.


If I took my dad to the local garden centre they have made the paths flat, and there are wheelchairs available where I could push him around. But there's no service where I can request a member of staff takes care of them, I disappear and they take them around the garden centre and I collect them later. Likewise at a restaurant they would make it accessible, but I couldn't leave the care of my parents in their hands until they leave the premises.

As someone else pointed out once before, the railway cannot offer a carers service. They have a duty of care for the safety of customers in terms of the safe operation of the railway of course. And the assistance service works to ensure as many parts of the railway service are accessible to as many people as possible. But they cannot ensure the care of any passenger in the way say a carer could when they take residents out from a care home for example.

When applying for a DSB it’s usually proof of Personal Independence Payment that is supplied although there are various other types of evidence (eg certificate of visual impairment, copies of hearing aid battery books although they may change as these are no longer issued- I go to George Eliot hospital at Nuneaton for my hearing aids and they don’t issue them now)
I’ve had to send copies of my PIP award letter to all kinds of places in order to get disability consideration- it’s not the best way of doing things to be honest!
 

OneOffDave

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Dave, can you book assistance online, or do you have to do it by phone every time?

I've tried it online a few times but you have to do a new booking for each journey which is at least as time consuming as over the phone. There needs to be two processes really, one for those booking ad hoc assistance and one for those regular commuters. There are 3-4 other wheelchair users and a similar number of visually impaired people that I see most days at Waterloo and I'm sure we'd all use a system like that, esp if it was mobile friendly
 

Master29

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She doesn't have a lot of luck does she? Nor any problem getting into the press!

Sums the whole thing up really. Is she really so upset at all this so called negative press I wonder. Who`d have even heard of her before all this.
 

jon0844

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Sums the whole thing up really. Is she really so upset at all this so called negative press I wonder. Who`d have even heard of her before all this.

She was (is?) on the front page of the BBC News website. The front page, above the fold or however you want to refer to it. The BBC was 'reaching out' for a comment from Ryanair, but ran the story even before getting the 'other side'.

The cynic in me does begin to wonder if these bad experiences are a way of getting publicity. Many people, disabled or not, have bad experiences in their day to day life.

Perhaps I'm being somewhat unfair and something bad happening to me isn't the same as someone losing their mobility, but if something happens that wasn't done intentionally or with malice, then is it worthy of a top news story? At least before you establish the full facts?
 

davart

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Agree with @jon0844

Wouldn't this be the third time that something has happened?

It's unfortunate, but repeatedly making the news will lead to a 'cry wolf' type of situation.

Worse things happen in the world. Suck it up and appreciate that it isn't a perfect world.

Everyone has their problems. There's a right way and a wrong way to achieve a resolution. Be discreet would be the mature way of dealing with things.

It's been argued already. I'd suggest locking the thread.
 

Michael.Y

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You're all disgusting. It's quite clear a large proportion of rail staff see disabled people as a tiresome burden who are only interested in publicity. Shame on you.
 
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