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Driver Training

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matacaster

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Pilots and other cockpit staff are trained on complex simulators which mimic all of the (sometimes violent) motions of aircraft behavior suing complex simulation programs and hydraulics.

Why doesn't the rail industry do driver training in this way? Things such as signals, greasy rails, and moving maps with rail line views should be able to accomplish all training. 3D moving map displays in each cab with multiple cameras should mean that there is no need for a windscreen and drivers could be anywhere on the train (or in a signal control room!)
 
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matacaster

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Ok then, I accept that simulators are used, but in that case why do drivers need to go on route learning trains and why does their lack of route knowledge prevent them from driving on 'signed for' routes. Surely if all singing, all dancing airline style simulators are used then all that's necessary to maintain or gain route knowledge is to go on the simulator for the prescribed time. Yet, for example, Virgin and TPE apparently have no (or very few) drivers with Settle & Carlisle route knowledge - why is that?
 
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Intermodal

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Have you ever used an all-singing-all-dancing simulator? Even the very best do not accurately recreate a picture of real life. The visuals are good enough to be immersed during an session, but you would not be able to pick up finer details of the local area. To propose that an software company were to model a route in the detail required would take years and be far more expensive than just driving the route itself (on trains that are running regardless of whether someone is route learning on them). Cab ride videos looking forward are also an often used tool for route learning which would provide more benefit than a simulator in most areas.

The simulation, rail or air, will include prominent buildings, marks on the track/runway, signals in the correct location and the landscape/turns will be there but beyond that, it's relatively generic (albeit a high quality generic).
 
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philthetube

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matacaster said:
Pilots and other cockpit staff are trained on complex simulators which mimic all of the (sometimes violent) motions of aircraft behavior suing complex simulation programs and hydraulics.

Why doesn't the rail industry do driver training in this way? Things such as signals, greasy rails, and moving maps with rail line views should be able to accomplish all training. 3D moving map displays in each cab with multiple cameras should mean that there is no need for a windscreen and drivers could be anywhere on the train (or in a signal control room!)
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Learning to fly a plane is far more difficult than learning to drive a train, however, area knowledge needed to drive a plane is far more detailed then that to fly a plane. Simulators are far better at teaching to drive than teaching geographical knowledge.
 
ComUtoR

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matacaster said:
Why doesn't the rail industry do driver training in this way?
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It does. The simulator at my TOC has become an integral part of the rules course and is a valuable assessment tool. What we don't do it use it to train people to drive. There is a big reason for that too. Mostly it's because you cannot replace real world experience. Pilots also learn to fly in the traditional way. The sim is very good for scenario based learning.

Things such as signals, greasy rails, and moving maps with rail line views should be able to accomplish all training.
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I would agree in principle and I think the sim is very under utilized. I have done a route based sim run that simulated an actual route we drive and it was pretty good.

3D moving map displays in each cab with multiple cameras should mean that there is no need for a windscreen and drivers could be anywhere on the train (or in a signal control room!)
Click to expand...

Er.....
 
ComUtoR

ComUtoR

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matacaster said:
Ok then, I accept that simulators are used, but in that case why do drivers need to go on route learning trains and why does their lack of route knowledge prevent them from driving on 'signed for' routes.
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In a nutshell. Liability.

Yet, for example, Virgin and TPE apparently have no (or very few) drivers with Settle & Carlisle route knowledge - why is that?
Click to expand...

This is separate from the OP. Do you have a genuine interest in why we have signed and driven route knowledge, do you have a interest in simulators and their use in the rail industry, or do you have a gripe with Virgin and TPE ?
 
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muz379

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Of the TOCS that do operate simulators they generally only tend to have one or at most a small number and in specific locations . But TOCS that train drivers generally have more than one in training at a time . So it is just more productive to put trainee drivers with instructors in their local depots .

Plus some of the stuff that aircraft simulators are used to train for are situations which are considered as emergencies such as failure of engines, landing gear or other equipment . For understandable reasons these are unnecessary risks to be taking with revenue taking flights or with real aircraft . Flight training is predominately still carried out using real aircraft but simulators can provide experience in situations which one would otherwise not experience until the real emergency occurred on a real aircraft .They provide a great addition to just leaning the procedures to go through in the event of certain emergencies which in some instances would have once been the case

As for route learning , sometimes it is more convenient to just go and drive the trains over the route concerned . Say for example your depot is in Manchester and the route is in the area surrounding Manchester but the simulator is in York is it really worth travelling over to york everyday to learn a route that is literally 5 minutes away ?
 
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6Gman

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matacaster said:
Pilots and other cockpit staff are trained on complex simulators which mimic all of the (sometimes violent) motions of aircraft behavior suing complex simulation programs and hydraulics.

Why doesn't the rail industry do driver training in this way? Things such as signals, greasy rails, and moving maps with rail line views should be able to accomplish all training. 3D moving map displays in each cab with multiple cameras should mean that there is no need for a windscreen and drivers could be anywhere on the train (or in a signal control room!)
Click to expand...

Sorry, but are you suggesting that the driver could be sitting somewhere on the train viewing a screen rather than from the cab?

If so, why?
 
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matacaster

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6Gman said:
Sorry, but are you suggesting that the driver could be sitting somewhere on the train viewing a screen rather than from the cab?

If so, why?
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Yes. Where accidents take place, it is often the driver who is killed or badly injured as he / she sits in the cab at the front of the train. A more frequent issue is perhaps where the driver is hurt when vandals drop masonary from a bridge and the windscreen smashes or other such like.
 
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6Gman

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matacaster said:
Yes. Where accidents take place, it is often the driver who is killed or badly injured as he / she sits in the cab at the front of the train. A more frequent issue is perhaps where the driver is hurt when vandals drop masonary from a bridge and the windscreen smashes or other such like.
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In which case I have to disagree with such a suggestion. There is no way that a driver sitting in a hutch part-way down the train and looking at a screen/ screens can be as aware of what's going on around him as in a traditional driving cab. Or be as aware of where he is.
 
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6Gman said:
Sorry, but are you suggesting that the driver could be sitting somewhere on the train viewing a screen rather than from the cab?

If so, why?
Click to expand...
Or sitting elsewhere eg an Indian call centre type scenario
 
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rdeez

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matacaster said:
Ok then, I accept that simulators are used, but in that case why do drivers need to go on route learning trains and why does their lack of route knowledge prevent them from driving on 'signed for' routes. Surely if all singing, all dancing airline style simulators are used then all that's necessary to maintain or gain route knowledge is to go on the simulator for the prescribed time. Yet, for example, Virgin and TPE apparently have no (or very few) drivers with Settle & Carlisle route knowledge - why is that?
Click to expand...

Would you want to be operated on by a lone, unsupervised surgeon who had only ever trained in a simulator?

As others have pointed out, there's no substitute for real-life experience in safety critical jobs like driving a train.
 
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Just when I thought I'd read every pointless thread possible another comes along.
 
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Airline and Railway simulators are comparable in the fact that both are used to practice scenarios that are able to happen yet unlikely to happen in day to day operations. On the railway it's primarily used for training and assessment of rule book procedures, such as Temporary Block Working, faults & failures, Single Line Working with a Pilotman etc. Any scenario that a driver needs to know how to deal with will be practised in the sim. We are lucky at our TOC that we have a full-size, fully working cab mockup. It's great for trainees to get used to the real cab-environment and knowing how the unit works before ever stepping foot on a real unit. Again it's only ever used for familiarisation and for rules & procedure training, not for route learning. You don't have pilots jumping in a multi-million £ sim just to fly the entire route from London to Dubai, it's used wisely to practice rules & procedures.

I can remember after three months of classroom and simulator based training to then going out on the line with an instructor, it took a short while to stop waiting for "something to happen".
 
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Basically - you can't feel whats going on with the train in a simulator because they're all "fixed" simulators (i.e the cab doesn't move). It's all very well the instructor saying "now we're going to experience wheelslide" but watching the brake gauge bouncing in the sim means nothing to me, because you don't feel it. In the real world in these situations I feel whats happening and change what I'm doing with the train to suit (whilst sucking the seat base up through my backside...). We use a simulator at work as part of our assessment process - to give you the opportunity to practice things you don't do very often and to confirm behaviors and processes. They do not replace being out in a real train, in real weather, with a real load - which is why we also get assessed in this way too!

Airline Pilots can actually be taught entirely to qualification level in a simulator, because it's all about cockpit processes and procedures in the sky - there's no interaction required with the real world other than takeoff and landing. (Example - my brother is a commercial pilot and recently qualified to fly a Challenger 850 jet in 4 weeks, spent entirely in a Lufthansa simulator in Berlin. He had to do 6 real takeoffs and landings to pass a final line assessment, in a real plane - which took a single afternoon - but that was it). Interestingly, talking with a commercial airline flight instructor recently, he stated that a train drivers mental workload at 100MPH was equivalent to landing a jet at Heathrow - but he did say "that only lasts for 15 minutes and there's 2 of you doing it..."
 
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choochoochoo

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matacaster said:
Pilots and other cockpit staff are trained on complex simulators which mimic all of the (sometimes violent) motions of aircraft behavior suing complex simulation programs and hydraulics.
Click to expand...

Who are the 'other cockpit staff' ? Are flight engineers found on any aircraft that have full motion sims. I know there are aircraft out there that still need them but can't think of any of those that actually have a full motion sim ?

Navigators, Payload specialists etc in military operations ?
 
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choochoochoo said:
Who are the 'other cockpit staff' ? Are flight engineers found on any aircraft that have full motion sims. I know there are aircraft out there that still need them but can't think of any of those that actually have a full motion sim ?

Navigators, Payload specialists etc in military operations ?
Click to expand...

The only cockpit staff in modern jetliners are two pilots. No navigator, no flight engineer. Probably the last commercial jets to have a flight engineer were Concorde and the 747-100.
 
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