Actual Politician/ Political Party Infrastructure Commitments

tbtc · 3 Sep 2018

There's a lot of aspirations made by politicians (and would-be politicians), a lot of infrastructure suggestions, but few real commitments (maybe a commitment to a focus group to discuss a feasibility study to give the impression of showing support for something, but without a guarantee).

So, seeing today's Jeremy Corbyn tweet (https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1036649324678193152)...

The Tory government has failed to electrify the Hull to Selby line, despite the fact that it would cut journey times and be much more environmentally friendly. A Labour government will electrify the line. #AllChangePlease

...got me thinking about what improvements political parties are actually promising us - not nebulous things like "nationalisation" but actual commitments to specific things.

(I'm not trying to start an argument about how My Political Party Is Better Than Yours, I'm trying to collate a little of different things that politicians *promise*)

RailUK Forums

GRALISTAIR · 3 Sep 2018

Well I am still p----d off at Grayling saying the only way the MML line was going to get electrified was to elect a particular person as MP for a constituency on the route. I really do not trust any commitment. However, promising something in a manifesto does nail it down a little.

jyte · 3 Sep 2018

Most clever politicians never make really specific promises unless they're party manifesto pledges, in which case so few people read them they can generally get away with either not delivering them or delivering something else slightly different and passing that off as a manifesto pledge, or cheap, easy to implement and popular policies that ultimately aren't productive.

Whilst I personally agree with Corbyn over electrification (not so much of this specific line but in general) making a specific commitment such as this is dangerous. If there is a reason the line should not be electrified, you end up with a situation where you either press forward and do it despite that being not the best option, or don't do it and face the flak of something quite hard to deflect*.

*without spin that is, but politics is permanently about spin these days.

GRALISTAIR · 3 Sep 2018

Scotland has gone a little quite which is unusual. I thought we would have heard more specifics by how. Stirling- Dundee or others?

tbtc · 3 Sep 2018

jyte said:
Most clever politicians never make really specific promises unless they're party manifesto pledges, in which case so few people read them they can generally get away with either not delivering them or delivering something else slightly different and passing that off as a manifesto pledge, or cheap, easy to implement and popular policies that ultimately aren't productive

True - which is why I was surprised to see something as clear/ unambiguous as "we will electrify the line" (especially when we are potentially years from a General Election) - I'm not used to such promises.

Bald Rick · 3 Sep 2018

tbtc said:
True - which is why I was surprised to see something as clear/ unambiguous as "we will electrify the line" (especially when we are potentially years from a General Election) - I'm not used to such promises.

But didn’t Prescott commit to renationalisation in 1997? That went well!

thenorthern · 4 Sep 2018

The British National Party (no I am not a voter) promised a 200mph intercity maglev rail network back when they were somewhat popular in 2010, given that they have lost more than 99% of their support since then I don't know what their current policy is.

Bald Rick said:
But didn’t Prescott commit to renationalisation in 1997? That went well!

Blair said in 1995 that a future Labour Government would renationalise the railways although it never happened.

LNW-GW Joint · 4 Sep 2018

It all comes down to funding (when a party actually gains power), priorities and pragmatism.
Blair took the view in 1997 that rail in general and nationalisation in particular was "not a priority".
Gordon Brown was so insistent on financial rectitude that he would not release funds for a round of nationalisation anyway.
Labour had many issues on its plate and simply never got round to the railways until Railtrack collapsed and effectively nationalised it as Network Rail.
John Prescott was No.3 behind Blair and Brown, and did not have much influence over the Treasury, always the key agency.

Mr Corbyn will also have to make tough choices if/when he gains power.
Does he fund railways or the NHS, schools, defence, Brexit fallout etc etc?
I suspect Hull electrification will come well down the list of his government's priorities when the time comes.
It's always much easier to tinker than to take decisive action.
Anyone remember the Humber Bridge, the 1974 Channel Tunnel, Concorde etc?
They were all on/off, on/off, depending on the nation's financial health (ever poorer).

This is what Wiki (!) says about the Humber Bridge (particularly apposite for Hull electrification):

However, raising the necessary funding proved impossible until the 1966 Hull North by-election. To save his government, Labour Prime Minister Harold Wilson prevailed upon his Minister of Transport Barbara Castle to sanction the building of the bridge.[8] This type of action is known as pork barrel, or an election sweetener. Dismay at the long wait for a crossing led to the writing by Christopher Rowe of a protest song entitled "The Humber Bridge"

On the practical front, what use is Selby-Hull wiring when there is no plan for Leeds-Selby, and when the TOCs have mostly ordered bi-modes instead?
If the Hull wiring was part of a wider strategic roll-out over, say, 15 years as part of NPR it would make some sense.
But then you are into strategy and long-term funding which politicians find very hard to do.

whhistle · 4 Sep 2018

GRALISTAIR said:
... Grayling saying the only way the MML line was going to get electrified was to elect a particular person as MP for a constituency on the route.

Please quote your source for this.
As in, where he stated this... some tweet, reputable newspaper, TV interview...

LM93 · 4 Sep 2018

whhistle said:
...reputable newspaper...

Do these exist anymore?

Railwaysceptic · 4 Sep 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
On the practical front, what use is Selby-Hull wiring when there is no plan for Leeds-Selby, and when the TOCs have mostly ordered bi-modes instead?
If the Hull wiring was part of a wider strategic roll-out over, say, 15 years as part of NPR it would make some sense.

Absolutely. This promise by Mr. Corbyn makes no sense. It would be far more sensible to electrify from Hull to Doncaster, so that the trains from Kings Cross could be electricity-powered all the way. Electrifying the section between Gilberdyke and Selby is pointless without continuing to Leeds and, preferably, Manchester too.

cprc · 4 Sep 2018

Railwaysceptic said:
Absolutely. This promise by Mr. Corbyn makes no sense. It would be far more sensible to electrify from Hull to Doncaster, so that the trains from Kings Cross could be electricity-powered all the way. Electrifying the section between Gilberdyke and Selby is pointless without continuing to Leeds and, preferably, Manchester too.

To be fair this seems to have been announced as part of a wider commitment to a "crossrail for the north" between Liverpool and Hull presumably involving some further electrification. I think the specific case Selby to Hull was given because that has been ruled out now but it's still possible the current government will electrify upto Selby.

https://twitter.com/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1036562290001281024

That it is one hour quicker to travel from London to Paris than from Liverpool to Hull is a consequence of decades of underinvestment. That’s why Labour has made a £10billion+ commitment to deliver Crossrail for the North to connect the great northern cities. #allchangeplease

https://twitter.com/hashtag/allchangeplease?src=hash

Kite159 · 4 Sep 2018

All the politicians will promise anything to win votes, even if it's a "we will set up a focus group/inquiry to look into doing such and such" with the results of that focus group/inquiry never being made public, or coming up as "it costs far too much for little benefit".

All hot air with nothing to show for it when the push comes to the shove.

GRALISTAIR · 4 Sep 2018

whhistle said:
Please quote your source for this.
As in, where he stated this... some tweet, reputable newspaper, TV interview...

Derby Evening Telegraph May 17tg 2017, also discussed at length on the MML thread pages 56-58. There is also a video of him doing this somewhere. At moment do not have a nice clickable link for you but working on it.

thenorthern · 4 Sep 2018

Generally marginal seats are more likely to get rail funding than safe seats. From their creation in 1950 until 2017 all three Stoke-on-Trent constituencies voted Labour without interruption normally with very large margins however the city has now become marginal and at the last election Chris Grayling visited the city and discussed a light rail network and re-routing HS2 to serve the city as the Conservatives were quite confident and in the end it paid off as they gain Stoke-on-Trent South.

Maybe the answer for rail funding is to live in a marginal area.

pemma · 4 Sep 2018

Lib Dems have been focusing on doubling up single track lines and reopenings in their recent manifestos.

B&I · 4 Sep 2018

thenorthern said:
Generally marginal seats are more likely to get rail funding than safe seats. From their creation in 1950 until 2017 all three Stoke-on-Trent constituencies voted Labour without interruption normally with very large margins however the city has now become marginal and at the last election Chris Grayling visited the city and discussed a light rail network and re-routing HS2 to serve the city as the Conservatives were quite confident and in the end it paid off as they gain Stoke-on-Trent South.

Maybe the answer for rail funding is to live in a marginal area.

As a way of guaranteeing disappointment once the election is over ?

Ianno87 · 4 Sep 2018

thenorthern said:
Maybe the answer for rail funding is to live in a marginal area.

Worked for the Heart of Wales and why it survives to this day...

Agent_Squash · 4 Sep 2018

thenorthern said:
Generally marginal seats are more likely to get rail funding than safe seats. From their creation in 1950 until 2017 all three Stoke-on-Trent constituencies voted Labour without interruption normally with very large margins however the city has now become marginal and at the last election Chris Grayling visited the city and discussed a light rail network and re-routing HS2 to serve the city as the Conservatives were quite confident and in the end it paid off as they gain Stoke-on-Trent South.

Maybe the answer for rail funding is to live in a marginal area.

Didn't work that well for Windermere, did it?

Andyh82 · 4 Sep 2018

cprc said:
To be fair this seems to have been announced as part of a wider commitment to a "crossrail for the north" between Liverpool and Hull presumably involving some further electrification. I think the specific case Selby to Hull was given because that has been ruled out now but it's still possible the current government will electrify upto Selby.

https://twitter.com/AndyMcDonaldMP/status/1036562290001281024

Yes he did the rounds on the northern regional news yesterday

“Crossrail for the North” electrified, funded by 2bn of borrowing, by 2050

That’s the politicians get out clause there. Corbyn won’t be in power in 2050

Also when asked about the current RMT action, he made an ambiguous statement that he supports having keeping staff on the train.

And so he could mention about how all the trains are ancient, he for some reason travelled from Manchester to Leeds on a Northern service, who helpfully provided a 2 car unrefurbished class 150.

See here
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-03/...rain-to-champion-investment-in-northern-rail/

Bald Rick · 4 Sep 2018

Andyh82 said:
Yes he did the rounds on the northern regional news yesterday

“Crossrail for the North” electrified, funded by 2bn of borrowing, by 2050

That’s the politicians get out clause there. Corbyn won’t be in power in 2050

Also when asked about the current RMT action, he made an ambiguous statement that he supports having keeping staff on the train.

And so he could mention about how all the trains are ancient, he for some reason travelled from Manchester to Leeds on a Northern service, who helpfully provided a 2 car unrefurbished class 150.

See here
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-03/...rain-to-champion-investment-in-northern-rail/

At least one of the trains he was on was sufficiently busy that he had space to put his bag on the seat next to him.

Agent_Squash · 4 Sep 2018

Andyh82 said:
Yes he did the rounds on the northern regional news yesterday

“Crossrail for the North” electrified, funded by 2bn of borrowing, by 2050

That’s the politicians get out clause there. Corbyn won’t be in power in 2050

Also when asked about the current RMT action, he made an ambiguous statement that he supports having keeping staff on the train.

And so he could mention about how all the trains are ancient, he for some reason travelled from Manchester to Leeds on a Northern service, who helpfully provided a 2 car unrefurbished class 150.

See here
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-03/...rain-to-champion-investment-in-northern-rail/

Corbyn tried to claim it was a Pacer on his Snapchat.

thenorthern · 5 Sep 2018

Agent_Squash said:
Didn't work that well for Windermere, did it?

I don't think the Conservatives realistically expected to win Westmorland and Lonsdale as at the time Tim Farron had quite a large majority and was very popular in the area however at the 2017 election the Conservatives did much better than expected in Westmorland and Lonsdale.

B&I said:
As a way of guaranteeing disappointment once the election is over ?

Pretty much especially if you live in the East Midlands as the Midland Main Line electrification was "paused" after the 2015 election and then completely cancelled after the 2017 general election.

B&I · 5 Sep 2018

Andyh82 said:
Yes he did the rounds on the northern regional news yesterday

“Crossrail for the North” electrified, funded by 2bn of borrowing, by 2050

That’s the politicians get out clause there. Corbyn won’t be in power in 2050

Also when asked about the current RMT action, he made an ambiguous statement that he supports having keeping staff on the train.

And so he could mention about how all the trains are ancient, he for some reason travelled from Manchester to Leeds on a Northern service, who helpfully provided a 2 car unrefurbished class 150.

See here
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-09-03/...rain-to-champion-investment-in-northern-rail/

So he should have found a newer train to travel on, to spare Northern's blushes ? A 2 car unrefurbished class 150 is the what many actual rail users im the north experience (the lucky ones, who don't get Paceurs)

takno · 5 Sep 2018

Agent_Squash said:
Corbyn tried to claim it was a Pacer on his Snapchat.

How unfair. Pacers are far nicer than post-refurb northern 150s

Actual Politician/ Political Party Infrastructure Commitments

Veteran Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

New Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member