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Disabled passenger claims Northern guard's behaviour gave her panic attack.

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underbank

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I’ve always wondered how the max standees figure is enforced on buses - I would imagine there’s no way it can be!?

The driver doesn't let you on, or if already moving, simply doesn't stop at bus stops unless people are getting off. Simples. One of my regular bus journeys is usually rammed when it leaves the bus station - driver simply tells the queue no and shuts the door when he feels it's full.
 
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ComUtoR

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Those people with use of their legs that choose to occupy this carriage are doing so because they prefer not to have to queue to get out of the station.

Not in all cases. I think its unfair to suggest that everyone is doing it for purely selfish reasons.

So when boarding an empty train you will choose to stand in the doorway that everyone else who wishes to board that part of the carriage will have to pass through?
I stated a busy train. If its empty then I'm in a seat. I have no choice but to give up my seat. It's in the terms and conditions of my ticket.
 
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OneOffDave

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I have known members of staff whop are polite and courteous when helping me on the train. Some of them I am friendly with as I see them several times a week. Others look at me as if I'm something that they've just stepped in and huff and puff about what hard work it is doing the job they are actually paid to do. As intended the use of the word 'bod' was non-gender specific, non judgemental informal term that covered both specialist assistance staff, other station staff or train crew

Not in all cases. I think its unfair to suggest that everyone is doing it for purely selfish reasons.

I'd be interested to hear the rationale for walking past empty parts of the train to pick the carriage with the wheelchair space that just happens to be nearest the platform exit at the station where most passengers get off, if not for ease of exit.

I stated a busy train. If its empty then I'm in a seat. I have no choice but to give up my seat. It's in the terms and conditions of my ticket.

You actually stated that you stand in the doorway. in the next sentence you referred to what you do on a busy train. Your statement regarding standing in the doorway was not qualified by any reference to the loading of the train. I was only referring to individuals I see who, when boarding a train that will become busy before departure but currently empty, choose to put themselves, their bag and often their foldy bike in the doorway.
 

Bletchleyite

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I have known members of staff whop are polite and courteous when helping me on the train. Some of them I am friendly with as I see them several times a week. Others look at me as if I'm something that they've juet stepped in and huff and puff about what hard work it is doing the job they are actually paid to do. As intended the use of the word 'bod' was non-gender specific, non judgemental informal term that covered both specialist assistance staff, other station staff or train crew

To be fair I don't think "ramp bod" is offensive, I would use that term informally to describe non-perjoratively a person doing a particular job whose full role and title I have no idea of, have done before and would again. It's no different to referring to the "ticket guy", say, when in fact that person's role is Senior Conductor or Revenue Guard.
 

ComUtoR

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I'd be interested to hear the rationale for walking past empty parts of the train to pick the carriage with the wheelchair space that just happens to be nearest the platform exit at the station where most passengers get off, if not for ease of exit.

Passenger behaviour is weird at the best of times. Human behaviour is crazy and we often do stuff that has no rhyme or reason. People board for the exit, people stand because they refuse to sit next to anyone, some people are claustrophobic (We have a regular passenger) and stand by the exit, some stand because they like fresh air, etc.

This is an interesting topic. I carried out a study on it when I was a much younger person.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics

Proxemics is the study of human use of space and the effects that population density has on behaviour, communication, and social interaction.

proxemics
prɒkˈsiːmɪks/
noun
noun: proxemics
  1. the branch of knowledge that deals with the amount of space that people feel it necessary to set between themselves and others.
 
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If you have any issue with a single member of staff who treats you with disdain, makes complaints in front of you or does anything you consider poor behavior then I suggest you report it to the TOC in question. Calling people bods and ramp wranglers is not helpful and only encourages stereotypical perceptions or people simply doing their job. I can think of a few choice words to describe many of our passengers but using them just promotes division. In a thread about respect, it has no place.

I really do think you're being a bit oversensitive here! I work behind a desk all day and would not be offended if I was described as a "desk jockey" or a "keyboard wrangler". I don't see it as disrespectful, but definitely informal.
 

OneOffDave

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If you have any issue with a single member of staff who treats you with disdain, makes complaints in front of you or does anything you consider poor behavior then I suggest you report it to the TOC in question. Calling people bods and ramp wranglers is not helpful and only encourages stereotypical perceptions or people simply doing their job. I can think of a few choice words to describe many of our passengers but using them just promotes division. In a thread about respect, it has no place.

I was reacting to your assumption that I had intended it disrepectfully. Also in a number of industries 'wrangler' is a standard term for someone who is in charge of a thing, particularly if that thing involves physical effort. If I'd have meant to be disrespectful I'd have called them minions, peons, serfs, gimps etc. Here's the thing, we get flak for complaining too much and then we are also told, often by the same people, that we should report everything to the TOC. I had periods over the winter of 2016/17 where I was having to lodge complaints 5-6 times a week for failed assistance, rude staff, stuff belonging to the TOC obstructing wheelchair spaces, etc. How much of my life should I set aside to deal with the inadequacies of a TOC to carry out its roles in accordance with the law and it's own polices?

I'd love to see the reasoning for people consistently choosing the most crowded carriage on the train that 'just happens' to be nearest the platform exit. It's also interesting to see those people who tut when asked to move from the wheelchair space, having specifically chosen to sit in those seats, esp those people who are regular commuters.
 

gimmea50anyday

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As much as Northern have apologised, if it was an issue previously and she has been advised she cannot travel, then why is she attempting to travel again?
 

urbophile

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As much as Northern have apologised, if it was an issue previously and she has been advised she cannot travel, then why is she attempting to travel again?

I'm late to this one and I haven't read the rest of the thread, but I've just seen Granada Reports' report. They said that Northern had previously apologised and assured her 'it would not happen again', not that she cannot travel again.

The whole fiasco is symptomatic of the chaotic deregulated system we have under privatisation. There should be a uniform policy across the whole national network. And if trains aren't equipped to welcome disabled passengers they should be: surely they are breaking the law?

On a less serious but nevertheless irritating level, the Liverpool Echo has an interview with Jeremy Corbyn who was making the (less than easy) journey from Liverpool to Hull, complete with video. The reporter had inadvertently got a ticket with the wrong train company/ service and was charged an excess, which he readily paid though Mr Corbyn offered to pay it for him. As he pointed out, it illustrates the nonsensical and confusing fares 'system' that we have; and the cripplingly expensive walk-on fares which are unavoidable if you have to travel in peak times at short notice.
 

gimmea50anyday

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I have to agree with you all the way there. To be fair there a bootload of new and cascaded trains coming in to service that will see off the non-DDA compliant stock within the next couple of years.

The fares system is a mess and if I have difficulties keeping up with the various different fares types and restrictions then I don't understand how the travelling public are supposed to understand, and the ticket machines don't exactly help either.
 

whhistle

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Righteous indignation
Moral outrage
Virtue signalling
High horse and soap box
Bylaw citation
Customer service
Disability law
Social media culture
Blame and claim
Character assassinations
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Bish bash bosh. Job jobbed.
Yet another example where this forum needs a like function.
I have nothing to add, but wanted to "like" to say I value your input on this thread.
 

Esker-pades

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From the Northern Rail website:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/faq/on-the-train/103-can-i-take-my-mobility-scooter-on-the-train said:
For safety reasons we can't take any mobility scooters on our trains unless they are able to be folded down before you board, and carried on like luggage. Please ask platform staff for assistance if you need help when boarding the train with your folded down mobility scooter.

It would therefore appear that one could book/ask staff for assistance when handling one's mobility scooter.

In this situation, the person could ask a member of staff to help fold and then carry their mobility scooter, in a similar way to someone with another chronic condition to help carry their bags from the car to the train. Assistance could then be booked at the other end so that they could continue their journey on their mobility scooter.
 

AlterEgo

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I'm sure I recall the policy outlined above is that they are not allowed on all trains, so if a passenger presents for travel and cannot be carried a taxi is provided instead.

So why did the passenger expect to be carried by train this time having already been told the policy? Have I missed something?
 

Darandio

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So why did the passenger expect to be carried by train this time having already been told the policy? Have I missed something?

I've been trying to piece it together from the FB page, it's all a bit of a muddle.

It seems she/they were going on holiday, she/they say that 'Senior Management' gave them assurance they could travel to and from Blackpool using the scooter. They got there fine, it was the return when they weren't allowed to board. They weren't offered any alternative transport and paid for a taxi back to Chester of their own accord, the FB page then said that Northern have now paid for this.

She then thanks everyone for the support and says they need to go to bed because of 'the concussion', no idea how relevant this is to the incident. They are also now pushing/directing people to a petition aimed at Alex Hynes.
 

Waldgrun

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It seems to me, (and I may be wrong) that Northern management, have put in place a no folding scooter policy, but do not back up their staff, when they enforce that policy!
 

AlterEgo

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It seems to me, (and I may be wrong) that Northern management, have put in place a no folding scooter policy, but do not back up their staff, when they enforce that policy!

I believe the policy is that folding scooters are allowed if the user folds it and carries it onto the train. Not sure what the logic of the policy is - perhaps someone else can confirm?

I can't make head nor tail of the whole story from her FB page, and reading all the guff on there made me lose the will to live.
 

pt_mad

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Cant understand why it's a no scooter policy anyway across all stock when a 158 should take a scooter providing it meets the reference wheelchair dimensions of length 1.2m or less as far as I can see. The ORR and DFT now consider that there is no clear way of differentiating between a scooter and an electric wheelchair now anyway and this is written in the RSSB document 'guide for wheelchair and scooter users' 2018.
 
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Darandio

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Am I missing something? The MD of ScotRail, right?

No, you aren't missing anything. I'm not sure whether they are pushing a new petition or regurgitating an old one.

Plenty more info on the FB page, but as @AlterEgo has already pointed out, you may lose faith in humanity.
 

pt_mad

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The brick wall Northern is facing is that they seem to have set their policy based on old logic that only grannys who can't walk to the shops have scooters.
Realistically now many people with disabilities use a scooter because of its versatility. If a scooter has dimensions matching a standard wheelchair or less, why logically can't they board a 158, when other Tocs allow both on all their trains?

Scooters are allowed on Pendolinos, and they have one of the steepest ramps on the network. I have seen scooters get stuck boarding them, yet they're not prohibited. If it's a three wheeled scooter that's dangerous on a ramp, then prohibit only a three wheeled scooter. Although why are they allowed on some stock and not others with less steep ramps?
 
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Intermodal

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The brick wall Northern is facing is that they seem to have set their policy based on old logic that only grannys who can't walk to the shops have scooters.
Realistically now many people with disabilities use a scooter because of its versatility. If a scooter has dimensions matching a standard wheelchair or less, why logically can't they board a 158, when other Tocs allow both on all their trains?
This issue, perhaps, is not even one of policy - as it seems a senior member of staff has agreed to allow such things to happen. I would argue the issue seems to be one of the dissemination of said new policy within staff in a timely manner..
 

pt_mad

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This issue, perhaps, is not even one of policy - as it seems a senior member of staff has agreed to allow such things to happen. I would argue the issue seems to be one of the dissemination of said new policy within staff in a timely manner..

I thought it was official policy?
 

Intermodal

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I thought it was official policy?
Correct from my understanding but my point was that if the senior manager has been quoted in the media as introducing this 'new' policy that it shall be allowed, then this needs to be followed up on immediately internally and the policies updated to reflect such. Clearly this never happened. It would be ludacris to suggest that he was implying only this woman specifically was allowed to travel with her scooter - therefore he announced a new policy publicly.
 
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