GN Class 717

Dstock7080 · 3 Sep 2018

choochoochoo said:
Is it like the circle/HC and met line in that they are above ground with a cool inside for so long they don't need to dump a lot of heat in the relatively short time they're in tunnels ?

S Stock dump heat at all times the a/c is running, which is always.

RailUK Forums

Mikey C · 3 Sep 2018

choochoochoo said:
How will the aircon work in the NCL ? I thought aircon in tunnels (especially old ones) was tricky as there is really nowhere to dump heat. Isn't this why most of the underground doesn't have aircon ?

Is it like the circle/HC and met line in that they are above ground with a cool inside for so long they don't need to dump a lot of heat in the relatively shirt time they're in tunnels ?

If the heat is just being dumped into the tunnel air, will that make the NCL stations hotter in the summer ?

An interesting question, as unlike the Circle and sub surface lines, the NCL is a deep bored tunnel so no open gaps for cooling ventilation, and a dead end so it's not as if hot air will be "pushed out"

jellybaby · 3 Sep 2018

choochoochoo said:
How will the aircon work in the NCL ? I thought aircon in tunnels (especially old ones) was tricky as there is really nowhere to dump heat

.
Maybe the aircon will be set to only run when on OHL and be switched off when on 3rd rail in the tunnels?

choochoochoo said:
Isn't this why most of the underground doesn't have aircon ?

I thought it was partly that and partly there isn't anywhere on a tube train to put the chillers.

sprunt · 3 Sep 2018

jellybaby said:
.
Maybe the aircon will be set to only run when on OHL and be switched off when on 3rd rail in the tunnels?

Which, if this summer is anything to go by, is when it's most needed...

Ethano92 · 3 Sep 2018

Would've been a long shot but they could've had automatic hopper windows to open when it changes to 3rd rail in the tunnel, even if air con had to turn off underground you get a strong breeze with windows in the tunnel. Same as how you get a breeze with the central line when it's underground (if you're at the front of a carriage) but it becomes even more of an oven when your above ground with no breeze.

That or the air con will be effective enough to last until the train exits the tunnel again.

choochoochoo · 3 Sep 2018

Mikey C said:
An interesting question, as unlike the Circle and sub surface lines, the NCL is a deep bored tunnel so no open gaps for cooling ventilation, and a dead end so it's not as if hot air will be "pushed out"

It will be interesting to see how hot those stations down on the NCL are going to get in the summer if the 717s are just going to dump aircon heat into the tunnels. It was bad enough this summer without them.

Fincra5 · 4 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
Back in the early days of the 700 thread it was suggested that it was deemed a possible point of failure so they’d be left permanently lowered and the infrastructure cleared for them. AIUI they were manually tied up for delivery from Germany.

Just a cheap train is the class 700. The fact the Pan recording lights stay on even when the pan is lowered is just cheap. But then it is a DfT ordered train.

Doomotron · 4 Sep 2018

Fincra5 said:
Just a cheap train is the class 700. The fact the Pan recording lights stay on even when the pan is lowered is just cheap. But then it is a DfT ordered train.

No it actually becomes a light to spot UFOs with.

hwl · 4 Sep 2018

Fincra5 said:
Just a cheap train is the class 700. The fact the Pan recording lights stay on even when the pan is lowered is just cheap. But then it is a DfT ordered train.

A number of pan incidents involve collecting debris when the pan is down hence recording all the time so light on all the time.
Remember the fried barn owl at Farringdon that came in from Kent with the train?

Team Defect · 4 Sep 2018

choochoochoo said:
It will be interesting to see how hot those stations down on the NCL are going to get in the summer if the 717s are just going to dump aircon heat into the tunnels. It was bad enough this summer without them.

The NCL has ventilation fans both at Moorgate and Poole Street (Poole Street is a service access half way between Old Street and Essex Road). So the NCL does have ventilation.

Team Defect · 4 Sep 2018

Fred26 said:
I'm not 100% certain myself. It's to do with the way it's setup on the 717s. The technicalities are beyond me.

The 717 trip cock is mounted directly on the metal bogie frame. On the 313s its mounted on a wooden beam which is then mounted on the bogie frame, this gives much better electrical insulation. The rear trip cock on the 717 flashed over the 3rd rail as the unit entered Moorgate causing a small fire. A newly designed trip cock is due from Germany soon.

swt_passenger · 4 Sep 2018

Team Defect said:
The NCL has ventilation fans both at Moorgate and Poole Street (Poole Street is a service access half way between Old Street and Essex Road). So the NCL does have ventilation.

Is Poole St the site with the doors labelled “Railtrack Access” facing the canal? Always wondered why that was there, I thought it might be power related. But it becomes obvious with the above hint...

Welcome to the forums by the way.

Team Defect · 4 Sep 2018

swt_passenger said:
Is Poole St the site with the doors labelled “Railtrack Access” facing the canal? Always wondered why that was there, I thought it might be power related. But it becomes obvious with the above hint...

Welcome to the forums by the way.

These doors you refer to are on the now Gainsborough studios building. This building was originally the generating station for the NCL power supply.

whoosh · 4 Sep 2018

The NCL tunnels are larger than London Underground 'tube' tunnels, not just fitting larger sized trains, but also a bigger gap around them as well. There should be enough space for air to flow for getting rid of air con heat.

More of a problem - it's filthy down there. No one's cleaned those tunnels since British Rail took them over in the mid-70s. So blocked air con filters, or (even) more dusty stations and tunnels as years of caked on dust gets disturbed by air con fans.

Team Defect · 4 Sep 2018

Maybe that's NRs plan. Rather than spend money to wash/clean the tunnels, they're just going to let the 717s air con units suck up all the dust!!!

Aictos · 5 Sep 2018

whoosh said:
More of a problem - it's filthy down there. No one's cleaned those tunnels since British Rail took them over in the mid-70s. So blocked air con filters, or (even) more dusty stations and tunnels as years of caked on dust gets disturbed by air con fans.

Look on the bright side, least the dirt will get shifted just not in the best possible way!

Goldfish62 · 5 Sep 2018

jellybaby said:
.
Maybe the aircon will be set to only run when on OHL and be switched off when on 3rd rail in the tunnels?

I thought it was partly that and partly there isn't anywhere on a tube train to put the chillers.

All new deep tube stock will have aircon, but you're right that up until now the main barrier has been finding somewhere to put the equipment.

nicjoynson · 5 Sep 2018

APUK002 said:
5th delivery next week,29th

I can see a 6C10 0200 from Dollands Moor ran on the 29th to Wembley, but I can't see an onward delivery to Hornsey. Was this a 717 delivery and how did it get to Hornsey?

Nic

Mikey C · 5 Sep 2018

Goldfish62 said:
All new deep tube stock will have aircon, but you're right that up until now the main barrier has been finding somewhere to put the equipment.

Removing the hot air from the tunnels, and especially the platforms will be a massive challenge though, when you consider how warm many of the central London stations are currently!

SteveOfTheStow · 5 Sep 2018

Will the AC traction on the 717s vs the DC of the 313s help in any significant way with heat issues?

jon0844 · 8 Sep 2018

Team Defect said:
The 717 trip cock is mounted directly on the metal bogie frame. On the 313s its mounted on a wooden beam which is then mounted on the bogie frame, this gives much better electrical insulation. The rear trip cock on the 717 flashed over the 3rd rail as the unit entered Moorgate causing a small fire. A newly designed trip cock is due from Germany soon.

Apparently now fitted on at least one unit and testing can (or has?) resume(d).

There's still of course the issue of when drivers will begin their 700/717 training (pretty much all the WGC based drivers).

ic31420 · 8 Sep 2018

whoosh said:
The NCL tunnels are larger than London Underground 'tube' tunnels, not just fitting larger sized trains, but also a bigger gap around them as well. There should be enough space for air to flow for getting rid of air con heat.

More of a problem - it's filthy down there. No one's cleaned those tunnels since British Rail took them over in the mid-70s. So blocked air con filters, or (even) more dusty stations and tunnels as years of caked on dust gets disturbed by air con fans.

Slightly OT but does anywhere clean tunnels/subway systems if so, how?

transmanche · 8 Sep 2018

ic31420 said:
Slightly OT but does anywhere clean tunnels/subway systems if so, how?

Yes, London Underground do.

choochoochoo · 9 Sep 2018

transmanche said:
Yes, London Underground do.

Aren't they called fluffers ?

Dstock7080 · 9 Sep 2018

choochoochoo said:
Aren't they called fluffers ?

They were, not sure if that is the correct term now.

There is also the TubeVac train consisting of battery locos hauling specialist flat wagons with vacuum equipment on board. The dedicated Tunnel Cleaning Train was disbanded and scrapped some years ago.

Class315 · 9 Sep 2018

jon0844 said:
Apparently now fitted on at least one unit and testing can (or has?) resume(d).

There's still of course the issue of when drivers will begin their 700/717 training (pretty much all the WGC based drivers).

There is a rumour, that testing may resume in/out of the NCL, Overnight Monday 10/09 into Tuesday 11/09.

The 700>717 conversion course is expected to be 2 days, but I don't think the official agreement had been signed off. The 700’s have become the new core traction for new trainees and more qualified drivers are going on the 2 week 700 course from other depots bar Cambridge & Peterborough now!

whoosh · 9 Sep 2018

With the increasing number of lineside fires on the NCL, Network Rail were keen to borrow London Underground's TubeVac train, but, it is alleged, met with something along the lines of "No way - it'll come back all s*** up!" as a response.

Network Rail ordered their own tunnel cleaning train for the NCL, but this derailed either on delivery or very shortly afterwards, and it's all gone quiet.

jon0844 · 9 Sep 2018

Get a Henry down there and it'll be clean in no time!

ungreat · 9 Sep 2018

Class315 said:
There is a rumour, that testing may resume in/out of the NCL, Overnight Monday 10/09 into Tuesday 11/09.

The 700>717 conversion course is expected to be 2 days, but I don't think the official agreement had been signed off. The 700’s have become the new core traction for new trainees and more qualified drivers are going on the 2 week 700 course from other depots bar Cambridge & Peterborough now!

All Peterborough drivers sign 700s bar a very tiny handful. Im pretty much certain all do tbh

Class315 · 9 Sep 2018

ungreat said:
All Peterborough drivers sign 700s bar a very tiny handful. Im pretty much certain all do tbh

Yes, they do bar those whom have recently transferred following the depot reshuffles earlier this year.

The Tunnel Cleaning Train came off the rails on the Down Goods outside of Finsbury Park on a Match day with lots of supporters taking interest in the commotion to re-rail the train/vehicle.

GN Class 717

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