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When will TPE direct Liverpool to Glasgow and Edinburgh trains start running?

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CICERO55

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does anyone know if TPE will definitely be running direct Liverpool to Glasgow trains from a December or has it be delayed to May 2019?
 
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Elecman

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Because Grayling has dictated that TPE amongst other TOCs cannot change their timetables in December this year after the May Fiasco
 

CICERO55

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Just a mess really and of course TPE are getting new rolling stock for their routes too.
 

47271

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But the stock wouldn't be ready for December anyway?
 

Bevan Price

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I don't think there is anything to stop introduction of new stock - if/when it is ready - but using the existing timetables.
 

Jack Jolley

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Liverpool to Glasgow expected to be May 2019
Liverpool/Edinburgh via Newcasyle should be December 2018 probably with the 185s until the newt stock is ready.
The 68s for Liverpool to Scarbrough should be ready first for this winters introduction
 

route101

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Will interesting to see how the Glasgow to Liverpool service does? I think it was 3 x daily services . When did these cities last have direct service?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Liverpool to Glasgow expected to be May 2019
Liverpool/Edinburgh via Newcasyle should be December 2018 probably with the 185s until the newt stock is ready.
The 68s for Liverpool to Scarbrough should be ready first for this winters introduction

Liverpool-Edinburgh definitely not Dec 2018.
Class 802s are not due for another year, and I don't think NR has confirmed the paths for TPE north of Newcastle.
I don't believe the power supply issues on the route (also affecting LNER's planned services) have been resolved.
Even after the through trains via Newcastle start, it will still be quicker from Liverpool to Edinburgh changing at Wigan or Preston.
 
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driver9000

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The Liverpool to Glasgow has been put back to May 2019 as there is no December timetable change. This should coincide with the introduction of the class 397 units now.

The Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle service was never planned for December 2018 and this is still planned for December 2019 when the class 802 units enter service.
 

Camden

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Quick question, why can't Liverpool passengers change at Warrington, Wigan or Preston for Scotland?
They do?

The question is why should Liverpool passengers have to change at Warrington, Wigan or Preston for Scotland. It's deemed of importance to the Scottish government, so I assume they must be across issues you're not considering.
 

Camden

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The Liverpool to Glasgow has been put back to May 2019 as there is no December timetable change. This should coincide with the introduction of the class 397 units now.

The Liverpool to Edinburgh via Newcastle service was never planned for December 2018 and this is still planned for December 2019 when the class 802 units enter service.
There hasn't been any announcement on this, other than the quiet canning of the December improvements, so it can't actually be safely said that any introduction dates are known or even likely.

Given the recent information that has come to light about the negotiations necessary over access to the ECML, combined with the level of unreliability of the existing TPE services, given that "avoiding further political embarrassment" will top all else in considerations I feel it's more likely that Edinburgh won't happen at all.

Even though it should be far less problematic, I do wonder if Glasgow to Liverpool might suffer the same fate. TOCs and NR are going to have work harder than ever to convince authorities that their plans are politiclaly safe to roll out, and the question is can they give the necessary reassurances and how long will that take.
 

ValleyLines142

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They do?

The question is why should Liverpool passengers have to change at Warrington, Wigan or Preston for Scotland. It's deemed of importance to the Scottish government, so I assume they must be across issues you're not considering.

I purely wondered whether there was the demand for such a service. Obviously there is.
 

driver9000

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There hasn't been any announcement on this, other than the quiet canning of the December improvements, so it can't actually be safely said that any introduction dates are known or even likely.

Given the recent information that has come to light about the negotiations necessary over access to the ECML, combined with the level of unreliability of the existing TPE services, given that "avoiding further political embarrassment" will top all else in considerations I feel it's more likely that Edinburgh won't happen at all.

Even though it should be far less problematic, I do wonder if Glasgow to Liverpool might suffer the same fate. TOCs and NR are going to have work harder than ever to convince authorities that their plans are politiclaly safe to roll out, and the question is can they give the necessary reassurances and how long will that take.

We've been told May 2019 for the start of the Liverpool to Glasgow service and nothing has been said that implies a threat to running north of Newcastle and preparations are being made for crew route learning. These services are franchise obligations and not easily dropped especially as they have been publicly announced. Of course what happens between now and then is another matter......
 

B&I

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Quick question, why can't Liverpool passengers change at Warrington, Wigan or Preston for Scotland?


The question is, why doesn't everyone else ?

I can only give you anecdotal evidence, but when I'm changing at Wigan from a southbound WC service I frequently hear a fair few people with a touch of Weegie about them boarding Liverpool-bound trains. There will also be those like me who change at Wigan when coming from Preston, Lancaster and points further north inside England, as the lack of any more than an hourly train north of Wigan frequently makes this quicker.
 

AMD

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I purely wondered whether there was the demand for such a service. Obviously there is.

Frequently, particularly Thursday to Sunday, half the load on a Preston to Liverpool Northern service is of passengers travelling from Scotland to Liverpool. It used to be the Wigan to Liverpool stoppers that bore the brunt of this traffic until TPE stopped calling at Wigan in May.
 

fowler9

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I purely wondered whether there was the demand for such a service. Obviously there is.
I'd say there is. If anything I would say, and I may be pushing it here, that Liverpool has greater cultural connections with Glasgow than Manchester does. I was up in Glasgow two weeks back as best man for my mate who was marrying a girl from Glasgow. Everyone up there was saying how Liverpool and Glasgow are the same, poor, docks and shipyards. My Uncle was also married to a lady from Glasgow from when he was up there with the Marines. I still have cousins up there. Maybe I am talking nonsense and my family and friends connections have nothing to do with rail traffic but I think I am far from the only one and thus, for me at least, and seemingly for Trans Pennine, the service is worth it.
 
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tbtc

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At the moment, my experience is that (excluding the Euston - Trent Valley - Glasgow services) the Edinburgh trains are busier than Glasgow trains (on the WCML through Cumbria etc), suggesting that there's more demand from Manchester/ Birmingham to Edinburgh than to Glasgow. That's only my observations, of course.

But then, if it were up to me I'd be running a regular Friday/Sunday service from Glasgow to Blackpool - in the summer you could fill a 185 without needing any intermediate stops (but that may be more about the ridiculous amounts of luggage that some Glaswegian families take with them!).
 

Ianno87

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At the moment, my experience is that (excluding the Euston - Trent Valley - Glasgow services) the Edinburgh trains are busier than Glasgow trains (on the WCML through Cumbria etc), suggesting that there's more demand from Manchester/ Birmingham to Edinburgh than to Glasgow. That's only my observations, of course.

But then, if it were up to me I'd be running a regular Friday/Sunday service from Glasgow to Blackpool - in the summer you could fill a 185 without needing any intermediate stops (but that may be more about the ridiculous amounts of luggage that some Glaswegian families take with them!).

Roughly you get hourly Euston-Glasgow, hourly [Euston]-Birmingham to Edinburgh/Glasgow (alternating) and hourly Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow (alternating).


That averages out as 2tph to Glasgow, but only 1tph to Edinburgh, so there are fewer Edinburgh services to meet demand in the first place (hence why they seem busier).
 

InOban

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Liverpool claims that it has far fewer destination served by through trains than any comparable UK conurbation. It's also campaigning for the restoration of XC services.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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NR is on record (in the RUS) as saying more WCML services to Edinburgh are possible, but only at the expense of serving Glasgow (ie divert existing trains at Carstairs).
However the 3 extra Liverpool-Glasgow services must mean there is a spare path in other hours north of Preston.
 

tbtc

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Roughly you get hourly Euston-Glasgow, hourly [Euston]-Birmingham to Edinburgh/Glasgow (alternating) and hourly Manchester to Edinburgh/Glasgow (alternating).


That averages out as 2tph to Glasgow, but only 1tph to Edinburgh, so there are fewer Edinburgh services to meet demand in the first place (hence why they seem busier).

True, but

  • The London - Glasgow market all goes that way, whilst the London - Edinburgh market obviously goes up the ECML, which is why I was trying to restrict this to the Birmingham/ Manchester trains.
  • The solution (to the fact that Birmingham/Manchester trains seem busier to Edinburgh than to Glasgow) appears to be to introduce Liverpool - Glasgow services - I've not seen anything that suggested that these would then mean existing Birmingham/Manchester - Glasgow trains would run to Edinburgh instead to compensate? If there has been an announcement then fair enough, but it feels like we are throwing more resources at Preston - Glasgow trains when it's Edinburgh that seems in more need.

As I say though, just my opinion, I'm not claiming any insider knowledge.
 

AndrewE

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I'd say there is. If anything I would say, and I may be pushing it here, that Liverpool has greater cultural connections with Glasgow than Manchester does. I was up in Glasgow two weeks back as best man for my mate who was marrying a girl from Glasgow. Everyone up there was saying how Liverpool and Glasgow are the same, poor, docks and shipyards. My Uncle was also married to a lady from Glasgow from when he was up there with the Marines. I still have cousins up there. Maybe I am talking nonsense and my family and friends connections have nothing to do with rail traffic but I think I am far from the only one and thus, for me at least, and seemingly for Trans Pennine, the service is worth it.
I agree about the links, and think that the amount of coastal shipping would have been the original reason. WCML and Manc to Edinburgh might be the biggest flow currently but I'm sure that when through trains return to Liverpool there will be more than enough passengers to justify expansion.
Analysing what "might be" is complicated because the WCML Edinburgh train loadings are heavily influenced by the fact that they (together with the Class 9s to Glasgow) are the only Anglo-Scottish day trains from Crewe!
 

Fleetwood Boy

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Slightly strange thing is that if anything the deficit in supply is to/from Edinburgh (as others have pointed out) and that the "traditional" rail link via Carlisle was always Liverpool - Edinburgh not Glasgow. Seems like a trick missed somewhere along the line?
 
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