Problems with American Express on Northern Ticket Machines

Puffing Devil · 12 Sep 2018

I'm wondering if anyone else has experience paying for a ticket with Amex using the new large screen machines? My card was rejected by both Contactless and Chip and Pin this morning. My (personal) visa card worked fine.

I know the card is working and unlocked, having used it again today. I've also collected tickets using the same card from the same machine.

I didn't have enough cash for a ticket, so this leaves me in a difficult position - paying using my own card or get a PTP and hope the Amex works with the Guard and I don't get given a hard time.

RailUK Forums

ForTheLoveOf · 12 Sep 2018

Puffing Devil said:
I'm wondering if anyone else has experience paying for a ticket with Amex using the new large screen machines? My card was rejected by both Contactless and Chip and Pin this morning. My (personal) visa card worked fine.

I know the card is working and unlocked, having used it again today. I've also collected tickets using the same card from the same machine.

I didn't have enough cash for a ticket, so this leaves me in a difficult position - paying using my own card or get a PTP and hope the Amex works with the Guard and I don't get given a hard time.

Amex is a perfectly acceptable method of payment for travel on the National Rail network. Any operator who decides to penalise passengers who could not buy a ticket at their boarding station, or onboard, because of problems with taking payment due to it being an Amex card, is entirely in the wrong.

That, of course - being in the right - is not the same as having a trouble/hassle free journey. But the railway is one place where Amex acceptance is generally fairly good.

Gareth Marston · 12 Sep 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
Amex is a perfectly acceptable method of payment for travel on the National Rail network. Any operator who decides to penalise passengers who could not buy a ticket at their boarding station, or onboard, because of problems with taking payment due to it being an Amex card, is entirely in the wrong.

That, of course - being in the right - is not the same as having a trouble/hassle free journey. But the railway is one place where Amex acceptance is generally fairly good.

Arriva Train Wales don't take Amex and Arriva own Northern....I'd maybe ceck it out further. My understanding is that Amex impose a small charge ( by not paying in full) on the processing company for the privilege of accepting Amex!

Bantamzen · 12 Sep 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Arriva Train Wales don't take Amex and Arriva own Northern....I'd maybe ceck it out further. My understanding is that Amex impose a small charge ( by not paying in full) on the processing company for the privilege of accepting Amex!

This is correct, Amex do charge more per transaction than other credit card companies. Some retailers choose not to accept them, and I'm not sure there is any legal obligation to make any retailer do so. It has been a topic of discussion before I believe, so the best advice in the first instance would be to ask the question of Northern.

Darandio · 12 Sep 2018

Northern do list AMEX as accepted on their website.

I also assumed that any TOC can choose whether to accept AMEX or not, but a thread on here from many years ago suggests otherwise.

ForTheLoveOf · 12 Sep 2018

Bantamzen said:
This is correct, Amex do charge more per transaction than other credit card companies. Some retailers choose not to accept them, and I'm not sure there is any legal obligation to make any retailer do so. It has been a topic of discussion before I believe, so the best advice in the first instance would be to ask the question of Northern.

Retailers in general are not, by default, obliged to accept Amex - as they may, for example, make payment by methods other than Amex a term (explicit or implicit) of the contract of sale.

However, National Rail Enquiries explicitly states on their page about payment methods on the National Rail network that: (bolding mine)

All National Rail train companies accept the major cards such as Visa, Visa Delta, MasterCard, Maestro and Amex.

"All" includes Northern, even if they would rather it didn't, so they could save money on payment processing fees!

Since a statement such as the above is one of, if not the first result on Google when searching "can I use Amex on trains uk" or "payment methods uk trains" etc., it is significantly likely to be an influence in a consumer's decision to engage in a contract (the NRCoT), and/or their decisions within such an already made contract, and since it is undoubtedly made by or on behalf of the trader (Northern), it is a binding term of the contract as per Section 50(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. It is not qualified in any way, such as for example the statement in the following sentence is ("Some train companies also accept Diners Club International, Solo and Electron.").

If Northern were to refuse payment by a method of payment that, as per a binding term of the contract has already been agreed as acceptable, Northern cannot penalise the passenger for their own penny-pinching. This means that, for example, they cannot issue a Penalty Fare to the passenger (notwithstanding inexistant and/or non-Regulations-compliant Penalty Fares signage), and the defence offered by Byelaw 18(3)(i) would eminently come into effect were Northern to attempt to prosecute under Byelaw 18(1)/18(2). There can equally be no question of an intent to avoid a fare under RoRA S.5(3)(a), at least from this.

Bantamzen · 13 Sep 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
Retailers in general are not, by default, obliged to accept Amex - as they may, for example, make payment by methods other than Amex a term (explicit or implicit) of the contract of sale.

However, National Rail Enquiries explicitly states on their page about payment methods on the National Rail network that: (bolding mine)

"All" includes Northern, even if they would rather it didn't, so they could save money on payment processing fees!

Since a statement such as the above is one of, if not the first result on Google when searching "can I use Amex on trains uk" or "payment methods uk trains" etc., it is significantly likely to be an influence in a consumer's decision to engage in a contract (the NRCoT), and/or their decisions within such an already made contract, and since it is undoubtedly made by or on behalf of the trader (Northern), it is a binding term of the contract as per Section 50(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. It is not qualified in any way, such as for example the statement in the following sentence is ("Some train companies also accept Diners Club International, Solo and Electron.").

If Northern were to refuse payment by a method of payment that, as per a binding term of the contract has already been agreed as acceptable, Northern cannot penalise the passenger for their own penny-pinching. This means that, for example, they cannot issue a Penalty Fare to the passenger (notwithstanding inexistant and/or non-Regulations-compliant Penalty Fares signage), and the defence offered by Byelaw 18(3)(i) would eminently come into effect were Northern to attempt to prosecute under Byelaw 18(1)/18(2). There can equally be no question of an intent to avoid a fare under RoRA S.5(3)(a), at least from this.

A lot will depend on what transaction software is used in Northern's TVMs. They will have signed a contract for them, as well as maintenance and potentially the card processing and transaction software. So whilst it may well be considered to be penny pinching, any additional cost for Amex acceptance may have been ruled out at the time the contracts were signed. As I said earlier the first action to take here would be to contact Norther and as why Amex isn't accepted by it's new TVMs, and if there are plans to accept them in future. If they do not have plans, then it is prudent for them to advertise this on their site and ask NR to also update theirs. I'm also trying to think if the accepted card types are displayed on screen or not. I think they may be but as I only use them once a month I honestly can't be certain.

But as I'm sure most Amex holders know, not all retailers do accept it and do as did the OP, carrying a second card that is universally accepted is a sensible policy. Even in the Amex heartland of the United States I've been in retailers where Amex cards have been refused. Unfortunately it is primarily the fault of that company for it's policy on transaction charges. They have little need to do so, they will make more than enough through interest, especially as they aim for the high end of the market. Perhaps Amex holders should be asking them why they persist with this policy that can limit its use?

But nonetheless consumers though covered by numerous laws should still ensure they avail themselves of the knowledge of what methods of payment will be accepted without issue, and those that may not. The same is true for users of Google and Apple pay, as well as non-standard cards like Electron. However Northern do need to update their websites for sure, so asking the question of them is a good starting point.

ForTheLoveOf · 13 Sep 2018

Bantamzen said:
A lot will depend on what transaction software is used in Northern's TVMs. They will have signed a contract for them, as well as maintenance and potentially the card processing and transaction software. So whilst it may well be considered to be penny pinching, any additional cost for Amex acceptance may have been ruled out at the time the contracts were signed. As I said earlier the first action to take here would be to contact Norther and as why Amex isn't accepted by it's new TVMs, and if there are plans to accept them in future. If they do not have plans, then it is prudent for them to advertise this on their site and ask NR to also update theirs. I'm also trying to think if the accepted card types are displayed on screen or not. I think they may be but as I only use them once a month I honestly can't be certain.

But as I'm sure most Amex holders know, not all retailers do accept it and do as did the OP, carrying a second card that is universally accepted is a sensible policy. Even in the Amex heartland of the United States I've been in retailers where Amex cards have been refused. Unfortunately it is primarily the fault of that company for it's policy on transaction charges. They have little need to do so, they will make more than enough through interest, especially as they aim for the high end of the market. Perhaps Amex holders should be asking them why they persist with this policy that can limit its use?

But nonetheless consumers though covered by numerous laws should still ensure they avail themselves of the knowledge of what methods of payment will be accepted without issue, and those that may not. The same is true for users of Google and Apple pay, as well as non-standard cards like Electron. However Northern do need to update their websites for sure, so asking the question of them is a good starting point.

Ultimately most other TOCs have no issue with accepting Amex at their TVMs, so I see no reason why Northern had to be different. As an Amex cardholder it is of course prudent to have a backup (in fact it is never wise to rely on a single card and/or card payment network). But it is nevertheless not acceptable that Northern have obtained and installed new TVMs which don't accept a method of payment which is accepted on the rail network.

What is a theoretical passenger who has only Amex to do if they cannot buy a ticket? Should they lie and say they only have cash, in order to obtain a "Promise to Pay"? It's just a very awkward situation - and equally if a passenger were a regular user at a TVM, buying say weekly tickets there, they could miss out on a substantial amount of rewards and/or cashback because of Northern's non-acceptable of Amex. It's not going to change whether or not they travel by rail, but it is unfair that Northern are pocketing the reduced fees.

Fawkes Cat · 13 Sep 2018

Before we get too wound up about the evils of Northern, is it worth remembering the scenario in the original post?

Puffing Devil said:
I'm wondering if anyone else has experience paying for a ticket with Amex using the new large screen machines? My card was rejected by both Contactless and Chip and Pin this morning. My (personal) visa card worked fine.

I know the card is working and unlocked, having used it again today. I've also collected tickets using the same card from the same machine

If that card has worked before with that machine, then broadly there are two possibilities:
- a local problem with that machine, that card or that card in that machine, or
- a change of policy by Northern leading to Amex access being removed from Northern TVMs.

My money would be on a local problem.

Bantamzen · 13 Sep 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
Ultimately most other TOCs have no issue with accepting Amex at their TVMs, so I see no reason why Northern had to be different. As an Amex cardholder it is of course prudent to have a backup (in fact it is never wise to rely on a single card and/or card payment network). But it is nevertheless not acceptable that Northern have obtained and installed new TVMs which don't accept a method of payment which is accepted on the rail network.

Policies can change, companies have changes of heart, some may start to choose to accept Amex others may withdraw. We can only speculate as to why the new batch of TVMs currently do not accept tem. Incidentally I noted at Guiseley this morning, the TVM on P2 showed the Visa & MasterCard symbols on the bottom left of the screen, but not Amex. So clearly they are not set up to accept them, and therefore a query to Northern would be the next appropriate form of action to understand why. However as a poster further upthread has said, Arriva Wales don't accept Amex so this may be the start of a withdrawal on Northern too. Its irrelevant what other TOCs accept or do not, the decision, rightly or wrongly, is with Arriva as to what they accept as they will attract the transaction charges (which could end up being passed onto all passengers, Amex holders or not).

ForTheLoveOf said:
What is a theoretical passenger who has only Amex to do if they cannot buy a ticket? Should they lie and say they only have cash, in order to obtain a "Promise to Pay"? It's just a very awkward situation - and equally if a passenger were a regular user at a TVM, buying say weekly tickets there, they could miss out on a substantial amount of rewards and/or cashback because of Northern's non-acceptable of Amex. It's not going to change whether or not they travel by rail, but it is unfair that Northern are pocketing the reduced fees.

I would consider it highly unlikely that an Amex holder would not have at least one other card available to them. The very fact that they hold any type of credit card means they have at least one bank account, and therefore will likely hold at least one debit card. And as I said above, Amex holders will be more than aware that their card may not be accepted at one or more retailers they may use & would carry said debit card as a backup. Sometimes you have yo use a little common sense in life, instead of expecting everyone else to legislate every possible scenario for you.

Fawkes Cat said:
Before we get too wound up about the evils of Northern, is it worth remembering the scenario in the original post?

If that card has worked before with that machine, then broadly there are two possibilities:
- a local problem with that machine, that card or that card in that machine, or
- a change of policy by Northern leading to Amex access being removed from Northern TVMs.

My money would be on a local problem.

Using a card to collect a ticket simply verifies the card inserted into the TVM versus the card used to pay for the ticket, and sometimes simply records the card details in case of query. It does not involve a financial transaction and therefore no charges would be applied, hence it being usable to collect TODs. Currently Northern do accept Amex on their website, so it is possible to use it to procure tickets in advance. Whether or not this will remain the case is best asked of Northern themselves.

yorkie · 13 Sep 2018

Bantamzen said:
... Its irrelevant what other TOCs accept or do not, the decision, rightly or wrongly, is with Arriva as to what they accept as they will attract the transaction charges ...

Northern are required to accept all valid payment methods as listed on National Rail Enquiries.

If a customer has a valid payment method and it is not accepted then the customer has, at that point, not yet had an 'opportunity to pay' and cannot be penalised.

dj_mikey_k · 13 Sep 2018

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/general-enquiries-faq/209-ticket-payment-methods

You can make your payment using the following types of payment card:

- Visa Credit
- Visa Debit
- Visa Electron
- Mastercard Credit
- Mastercard Debit
- Maestro
- American Express

I'll just leave that here

LowLevel · 13 Sep 2018

Amex authorisations are odd regardless. Their cards do not work in contactless mode on board our trains for example yet are fine for chip and pin. I would imagine it's not a deliberate act.

Bantamzen · 13 Sep 2018

yorkie said:
Northern are required to accept all valid payment methods as listed on National Rail Enquiries.

If a customer has a valid payment method and it is not accepted then the customer has, at that point, not yet had an 'opportunity to pay' and cannot be penalised.

Are they though? Just because it is listed on the NRE website does not make it a requirement does it? As noted further above, there is no legal requirement for any retailer to accept Amex. Yes they do need to update both their website & request that NRE do the same, but there is nothing that can force them to accepting Amex, or indeed any other type of card if they choose not to.

And I'm very certain that presented with the highly unlikely situation of a Amex card holder with no other method of payment on them, guards would allow payment on the train with the Amex card (assuming of course their readers will accept them). Nobody anywhere here has suggested that Northern would or should penalise any passenger in this situation, and I totally agree that no penalty should be applied.

The simple question posed by the OP was do the Northern TVMs accept Amex, which appears at this time they do not. I suggest if anyone feels this may be an issue in future for them, they contact Northern to ask about this policy and if it may be changed in future, and if not how they would go about procuring a ticket if their Amex card was the only form available to them. And personally speaking I would also be asking Amex as to why they continue to charge considerably more per transaction than other issuers when clearly this is to the determent of their customers (which after all is the real issue here).

dj_mikey_k said:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/general-enquiries-faq/209-ticket-payment-methods

I'll just leave that here

And their website ordering system does accept Amex, so it is at least partially true. You'll also note that it makes no mention of cash, but some Northern TVMs do accept cash in them. It should be reasonably obvious that this page refers to online ticket procurement, with the first paragraph after the list of online acceptable payment methods stating:

If you have entered your card details in our system and have any queries about your booking, please contact the online sales team

However I do agree that there should be clearer information on what payment methods are accepted by their station TVMs, especially as there are some that accept card & cash and others just cards.

Killingworth · 13 Sep 2018

dj_mikey_k said:
https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/general-enquiries-faq/209-ticket-payment-methods

I'll just leave that here

I'll continue it by saying my local Northern TVM accepted the card itself but declined my valid Amex card for a £42 transaction a few weeks ago and gave me a voucher to say I hadn't been debited. That suggests a fault, but as I have other cards it wasn't a problem. Will have to try it again to check.

Bantamzen · 13 Sep 2018

LowLevel said:
Amex authorisations are odd regardless. Their cards do not work in contactless mode on board our trains for example yet are fine for chip and pin. I would imagine it's not a deliberate act.

Interesting to know, I wonder then if the problem is not financial but technical with the TVMs unable to handshake or transact with the Amex servers. I'm starting to think that might be a possibility.

Killingworth said:
I'll continue it by saying my local Northern TVM accepted the card itself but declined my valid Amex card for a £42 transaction a few weeks ago and gave me a voucher to say I hadn't been debited. That suggests a fault, but as I have other cards it wasn't a problem. Will have to try it again to check.

As above, it could be that the TVMs simply can't interact with the Amex servers. Before trying an Amex card, see if there is an Amex symbol either on the splash screen before you start to request your ticket (they seem to be located on the bottom left) or at the payment screen itself. If there is not I'd say don't waste your time trying & use another card.

Wallsendmag · 13 Sep 2018

I would be inclined to lean towards a machine/network failure. On the other hand there could be a phased introduction of various features.

Haywain · 13 Sep 2018

Puffing Devil said:
I'm wondering if anyone else has experience paying for a ticket with Amex using the new large screen machines? My card was rejected by both Contactless and Chip and Pin this morning. My (personal) visa card worked fine.

I know the card is working and unlocked, having used it again today. I've also collected tickets using the same card from the same machine.

This may seem a strange question, but is this a new-ish card? I ask because over the years I have seen occasions where AmEx cards in new BIN (number) ranges get rejected because the payment card processor hasn't added that range to their lists.

WelshBluebird · 13 Sep 2018

If the National Rail website states that all ToC's accept Amex, then all should. No ifs or buts about it.
And if they don't, then passengers should not be punished for that.

WelshBluebird · 13 Sep 2018

Bantamzen said:
Just because it is listed on the NRE website does not make it a requirement does it?

Surely it does?
After all the NRE website says it is "the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland".

Bantamzen · 13 Sep 2018

WelshBluebird said:
If the National Rail website states that all ToC's accept Amex, then all should. No ifs or buts about it.
And if they don't, then passengers should not be punished for that.

WelshBluebird said:
Surely it does?
After all the NRE website says it is "the definitive source of customer information for all passenger rail services on the National Rail network in England, Wales and Scotland".

The NRE pages are advisory, not regulatory. And a quick glance on that page reveals a caveat:

The following are accepted as methods of payments at National Rail stations and retail outlets. They also apply to paying on-train when no opportunity to purchase beforehand existed.

Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Northern do accept Amex on their website, but currently not at their new TVMs.

Puffing Devil · 13 Sep 2018

Wow - that escalated quickly! It really was a simple query to see if others had encountered problems with the machines, as I've used Amex on-board with no issue.

Fawkes Cat said:
Before we get too wound up about the evils of Northern, is it worth remembering the scenario in the original post?

If that card has worked before with that machine, then broadly there are two possibilities:
- a local problem with that machine, that card or that card in that machine, or
- a change of policy by Northern leading to Amex access being removed from Northern TVMs.

My money would be on a local problem.

Exactly.

Killingworth said:
I'll continue it by saying my local Northern TVM accepted the card itself but declined my valid Amex card for a £42 transaction a few weeks ago and gave me a voucher to say I hadn't been debited. That suggests a fault, but as I have other cards it wasn't a problem. Will have to try it again to check.

This is exactly what happened to me. Twice. I have two credit card vouchers for an approved transaction of £0.00.

Haywain said:
This may seem a strange question, but is this a new-ish card? I ask because over the years I have seen occasions where AmEx cards in new BIN (number) ranges get rejected because the payment card processor hasn't added that range to their lists.

Not so new - over 4 months and it's been around the world with no approval issues.

In summary - it looks as if there may be a problem with the approval mechanism, not a deliberate denial. We could use a few more data points for acceptance or rejection to understand what's happening. If there's a clear problem, it will be easy to take to NR. Otherwise we face the one-off "it's your bank, your fault" response.

Clip · 13 Sep 2018

Bantamzen said:
The NRE pages are advisory, not regulatory. And a quick glance on that page reveals a caveat:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Northern do accept Amex on their website, but currently not at their new TVMs.

You're surely not pointing out that people who have said that they should accept them due to NRE saying that AMEX is an accepted product on national rail, didn't actually read the full text but went quoting what they wanted to read instead?

Puffing Devil said:
Wow - that escalated quickly! It really was a simple query to see if others had encountered problems with the machines, as I've used Amex on-board with no issue.

It did just a bit eh? Even on board LowLevel has said it only works with chip and pin in their experience as a guard

SAPhil · 13 Sep 2018

I suspect this may be a more general TVM issue. I always use an Amex credit card to buy tickets online but the card is never recognised when I 'm asked to insert it to collect the tickets! This is at several different stations in and around London. Fortunately as any card does for the collection process this hasn't caused me a problem.

Haywain · 13 Sep 2018

Puffing Devil said:
Not so new - over 4 months and it's been around the world with no approval issues.

That wouldn't rule out the sort of problem I've seen in the past, it can be just one merchant or a handful.

embers25 · 13 Sep 2018

LowLevel said:
Amex authorisations are odd regardless. Their cards do not work in contactless mode on board our trains for example yet are fine for chip and pin. I would imagine it's not a deliberate act.

My amex rarely works anywhere on contactless and most retailers I use it at insist it go in the machine and then it works fine. Not sure why tho.

button_boxer · 13 Sep 2018

Amex is a separate system to other cards - in my shop we have one contract with Barclays to take all Visa and MasterCard cards but we’d need to sign another completely separate contract with Amex to be able to take theirs. With Visa and MasterCard the acquirer bank, card network and customer’s bank can be (and usually are) three separate organisations, but for Amex they play all three roles directly themselves.

Starmill · 13 Sep 2018

My Mastercard debit card is sometimes rejected because of a card read error (if the terminal is to be believed). The contactless pad sometimes doesn't work unless the card is flat and touched to it, and sometimes not even then. I see people in front of me in the queue experiencing similar issues sometimes. Empirically, if the machine fails to read the card this can cause it to freeze, or go out of service.

I have never known this from any other ticket machines, ever.

My guess would be that it's related to the machine, not the the card issuer.

wellhouse · 14 Sep 2018

In my experience, Northern TVMs (old or new) have never accepted Amex, but Northern booking offices and guards selling tickets on board always have.

paddington · 14 Sep 2018

button_boxer said:
With Visa and MasterCard the acquirer bank, card network and customer’s bank can be (and usually are) three separate organisations, but for Amex they play all three roles directly themselves.

Not true but is in the process of becoming true. Lloyds and MBNA issue Amex cards but MBNA ones have been withdrawn, and Lloyds is not open to new customers and existing cards will be withdrawn in the next 8 months.

Amex charges to the merchant can be lower than Visa and Mastercard charges, especially if the Visa or Mastercard is a corporate card, a "premium" card or issued outside the UK. For example, Tesco Bank used to issue the Tesco World Mastercard to high spenders but found they were paying through the nose when the card was used in Tesco.

Problems with American Express on Northern Ticket Machines

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