Arriva Rail North DOO

Overspeed110 · 7 Sep 2018

Robertj21a said:
That won't be enough for Mick Cash. He always insists on them being safety critical.

Not just Mick Cash.

Thousands of RMT members of all grades and thousands of passengers want a proper guard or whatever they will be called, so long as they know exactly what to do in an emergency. (So yes, safety critical)

You seem to think this dispute is about one person. You're wrong.

RailUK Forums

bb21 · 7 Sep 2018

Tomnick said:
Under the DfT's proposal, I don't think there'd be a second member of staff on any Northern train as a matter of routine, just roving teams of ticket inspectors to heavily penalise anyone caught without a valid ticket and to deter others from doing the same.

Otherwise, I don't think there'd be very much difference, especially away from urban areas.

The whole franchise system would have collapsed into its own hyperbole before that would be anywhere near fruition.

Give it 10 years...

a_c_skinner · 7 Sep 2018

Overspeed110 said:
thousands of passengers want a proper guard

Do they? Thousands might, but I'd be very surprised if more than a tiny minority know what the difference between the current guard and an OBS is. They want someone to assist them and advise them and sell them tickets, beyond that I'm not sure.

Tomnick · 7 Sep 2018

a_c_skinner said:
Do they? Thousands might, but I'd be very surprised if more than a tiny minority know what the difference between the current guard and an OBS is. They want someone to assist them and advise them and sell them tickets, beyond that I'm not sure.

I'd be equally surprised if they understood the risks and the possible consequences when things go wrong - so I'm always wary of public opinion on this sort of thing (and some other big things).

Robertj21a · 7 Sep 2018

Overspeed110 said:
Not just Mick Cash.

Thousands of RMT members of all grades and thousands of passengers want a proper guard or whatever they will be called, so long as they know exactly what to do in an emergency. (So yes, safety critical)

You seem to think this dispute is about one person. You're wrong.

I thought the RMT members had elected Mick Cash as their leader ?.

pt_mad · 7 Sep 2018

Robertj21a said:
That won't be enough for Mick Cash. He always insists on them being safety critical.

Afaik greater Anglia have got the second member guarantee and RMT are calling it a victory as far as their newsletter goes.

A Southeastern Javlin type Train Manager is the most likely way to a resolution imo although less desirable than keeping the guard in my eyes. But I suspect this may be the way to get some sort of ish agreement.

ComUtoR said:
Dunno. I'll probably be in my flying car, using the Maglev going via the automated HS5 or using a self driving iCar.

We thought that of today back in the 1980s. Ten years time I suspect mobile phones will do even more stuff but transport will look much the same other than some new fleets and HS2 will be in the process of replacing some WCML expresses. Oh and loads more light rail especially Wales

pt_mad · 7 Sep 2018

a_c_skinner said:
Do they? Thousands might, but I'd be very surprised if more than a tiny minority know what the difference between the current guard and an OBS is. They want someone to assist them and advise them and sell them tickets, beyond that I'm not sure.

But would they rather them be fully trained in matters such as evacuation, railway rules, and what to do if the driver is out of action due to an emergency? We are straying into Southeastern Javlin type train manager territory there rather than OBS.
Or are they happy with a customer host type person?
And do they mind if there is not always that person there, or not?

a_c_skinner · 8 Sep 2018

If they use Thameslink regularly...

That is the logical mountain to climb, those are single manned, very busy trains with significant rural travel times. I don't know of incidents which caused injury that would have been averted by a guard on a single manned train, but I assume by now someone would have pointed this out had it happened.
I keep saying I think there should be a second, passenger facing person on a train. But it is about service.

pemma · 8 Sep 2018

There were a couple of posts comparing the Northern dispute to the SWR one. According to a BBC report SWR have said they'll roster guards to work all services but want the option of operating without a guard in 'exceptional circumstances.'

Overspeed110 said:
Not just Mick Cash.

Thousands of RMT members of all grades and thousands of passengers want a proper guard or whatever they will be called, so long as they know exactly what to do in an emergency. (So yes, safety critical)

You seem to think this dispute is about one person. You're wrong.

Passengers generally want a visible staff presence. I'm sure many would prefer an OBS who is banned from the rear cab and trained in things like first aid and emergency evacuation, as well as able to provide a high level of customer service, than the current Northern guards. Those who say they want to keep the guard are generally under the impression that Northern plan to operate services with just a driver on board in normal circumstances and think the dispute is against the axing of staff.

Tomnick said:
...and the next logical step in that debate is whether a lone passenger is more likely to be subjected to the first scenario than the second. It's inevitable that far more trains would operate without a second member of staff under Northern's proposals than would be cancelled currently for the lack of a guard. See below...

Without such a guarantee, it's the thin end of a wedge. If there's no such guarantee, and in the absence of any other penalty regime, then there'll be no incentive to use overtime to cover vacancies in the short term and no incentive to bother filling those vacancies in the longer term.

Which is why the ASLEF resolution with Southern which has a list of acceptable scenarios for not providing the second member of staff is very sensible. The only grey area is why they think it's OK to not have an OBS if a large number are off sick but not if the OBS members are taking part in industrial action, that's verging on 'sympathy strikes.'

CaptainHaddock · 12 Sep 2018

Northern strike timetables for this Saturday 15 September are now online.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

A significant change in my area from the last strike days is that local stations between Sheffield and Barnsley & Barnsley and Huddersfield will have no trains at all, just a handful of bus replacements. Maybe Northern are now struggling to get staff to work strike days?

hawk1911 · 12 Sep 2018

CaptainHaddock said:
Northern strike timetables for this Saturday 15 September are now online.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/strike

A significant change in my area from the last strike days is that local stations between Sheffield and Barnsley & Barnsley and Huddersfield will have no trains at all, just a handful of bus replacements. Maybe Northern are now struggling to get staff to work strike days?

No Northern services in or out of Bradford Forster Square this time, as well, and only a very limited service from Interchange.

scrapy · 12 Sep 2018

Nothing from Barrow to Lancaster either. (2 replacement buses all day)

pemma · 12 Sep 2018

I think it's common sense that 6 weeks of consecutive strikes will mean fewer 'stand in guards.' People who are willing to work a day as overtime or put off less urgent work so they can act as a guard won't want to do that week after week after week.

OxtedSignaller · 12 Sep 2018

Does anyone know when this will all come to a head? Surely the time is coming for ASLEF to be consulted and contracts beginning to change as the fleet is being introduced within the next few months

pemma · 12 Sep 2018

OxtedSignaller said:
Does anyone know when this will all come to a head? Surely the time is coming for ASLEF to be consulted and contracts beginning to change as the fleet is being introduced within the next few months

The new trains can operate with guards doing doors, there's no requirement for DCO to be introduced before December 2019 and given everything else has fallen behind schedule I don't know why everyone seems confident DCO will be delivered on schedule.

scrapy · 12 Sep 2018

jcollins said:
The new trains can operate with guards doing doors, there's no requirement for DCO to be introduced before December 2019 and given everything else has fallen behind schedule I don't know why everyone seems confident DCO will be delivered on schedule.

The dates which DCO have to be introduced are hidden in the public version of the franchise agreement. The invitation to tender did specify a minimum 50% of route mileage be DCO by end of 2019 and said that bids of less than this would not be accepted. So we can assume this is a minimum requirement in the franchise agreement. Whether Arriva stick to this is anyone's guess as they do seem to do as they like with little recourse.

Andyh82 · 13 Sep 2018

No service between Bradford and Todmorden again except for an hourly all stations bus

No service Leeds to Manchester via Brighouse

No stopping service Leeds to Sheffield by either route, only the express

No service Huddersfield to Sheffield except a very limited bus to Barnsley only

Leeds to Doncaster very limited

But...

Ilkley, Skipton and Harrogate maintain their normal every 30 mins frequency to Leeds

A question...

Are you able to use route Hebden Bridge tickets via Leeds and/or Huddersfield on a strike day?

Loop & Link · 13 Sep 2018

jcollins said:
I think it's common sense that 6 weeks of consecutive strikes will mean fewer 'stand in guards.' People who are willing to work a day as overtime or put off less urgent work so they can act as a guard won't want to do that week after week after week.

Nice to see some understanding, shame the same understanding doesn’t apply when regular drivers and guards won’t work overtime.....

Bletchleyite · 13 Sep 2018

Andyh82 said:
Are you able to use route Hebden Bridge tickets via Leeds and/or Huddersfield on a strike day?

Are these also Northern services? If so, just do it anyway, you'll either be excessed or more likely tickets won't be done.

Killingworth · 14 Sep 2018

jcollins said:
I think it's common sense that 6 weeks of consecutive strikes will mean fewer 'stand in guards.' People who are willing to work a day as overtime or put off less urgent work so they can act as a guard won't want to do that week after week after week.

As a manager I'd enjoy an occasional period doing more junior tasks to help out (but not all day). I'd done them as I worked my way up and it helped me keep in touch with all aspects of the business. Perhaps I enjoyed doing it too much. I suspect that applied to most stand ins, at first. However returning to the playpen isn't good practice on a regular basis. It's not what the stand ins, at any level, are being paid for. That work must suffer, as will home life when Saturdays are involved for the many who normally work Monday-Friday. From a union point of view, to make their point, Saturday's should have been targeted sooner.

Hopefully the RMT and Northern are engaging in meaningful talks by now. The all or nothing approach by both sides has to give a little eventually.

Overspeed110 · 14 Sep 2018

Loop & Link said:
Nice to see some understanding, shame the same understanding doesn’t apply when regular drivers and guards won’t work overtime.....

Hahahahahahahahahahah!

pemma · 14 Sep 2018

Loop & Link said:
Nice to see some understanding, shame the same understanding doesn’t apply when regular drivers and guards won’t work overtime.....

Like I've said before I think newly employed train crews should have Sundays in their working week and existing ones should have the choice of switching to the new contracts (with an incentive) or remaining on the existing ones. Also like I've said before TOCs should employ enough staff to work every service and overtime should only be needed to cover staff sickness or to provide extra services which aren't part of the regular timetable e.g. the Man United match day shuttles.

Robertj21a · 14 Sep 2018

jcollins said:
Like I've said before I think newly employed train crews should have Sundays in their working week and existing ones should have the choice of switching to the new contracts (with an incentive) or remaining on the existing ones. Also like I've said before TOCs should employ enough staff to work every service and overtime should only be needed to cover staff sickness or to provide extra services which aren't part of the regular timetable e.g. the Man United match day shuttles.

The trouble with that is that it's all too sensible.....

scrapy · 14 Sep 2018

jcollins said:
Like I've said before I think newly employed train crews should have Sundays in their working week and existing ones should have the choice of switching to the new contracts (with an incentive) or remaining on the existing ones. Also like I've said before TOCs should employ enough staff to work every service and overtime should only be needed to cover staff sickness or to provide extra services which aren't part of the regular timetable e.g. the Man United match day shuttles.

The thing many people don't realise is that the unions want this. It's the train operators that don't because their costs go up as they have to employ more staff.

Robertj21a · 14 Sep 2018

scrapy said:
The thing many people don't realise is that the unions want this. It's the train operators that don't because their costs go up as they have to employ more staff.

Previous comments have suggested that neither unions or TOCs want it - "all far too difficult" !!

Carlisle · 14 Sep 2018

scrapy said:
The thing many people don't realise is that the unions want this. It's the train operators that don't because their costs go up as they have to employ more staff.

In the area where I live the council claim it can’t afford to support any local bus services, so arguing people should just automatically accept rising costs simply to maintain their existing rail services may ultimately prove unwinnable

scrapy · 14 Sep 2018

Robertj21a said:
Previous comments have suggested that neither unions or TOCs want it - "all far too difficult" !!

Public statements from the unions and the fact that ASLEF have proactively been asking Northern for Sunday's in the working week suggest the opposite. If a driver works a Sunday as part of the working week rather than as an extra day extra drivers would be required to cover other days.

Not sure how to post links but see the article dated 6th August in the news section of ASLEFs website.

scrapy · 14 Sep 2018

Carlisle said:
In the area where I live the council claim it can’t afford to support any local bus services, so arguing people should just automatically accept rising costs simply to maintain their existing rail services may ultimately prove unwinnable

The thing is the rising costs shouldn't be the responsibility of the taxpayer. Arriva knew what trains it was required to run on a Sunday when they bid for the franchise.

Moonshot · 14 Sep 2018

scrapy said:
Public statements from the unions and the fact that ASLEF have proactively been asking Northern for Sunday's in the working week suggest the opposite. If a driver works a Sunday as part of the working week rather than as an extra day extra drivers would be required to cover other days.

Not sure how to post links but see the article dated 6th August in the news section of ASLEFs website.

Staff want Sundays outside of the working week. Sundays inside is not going to happen.

Moonshot · 14 Sep 2018

scrapy said:
The thing is the rising costs shouldn't be the responsibility of the taxpayer. Arriva knew what trains it was required to run on a Sunday when they bid for the franchise.

Its the taxpayer who is specifying the services. Northern services require a public subsidy. Its that simple.

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