LOL The Irony
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What's the point of digital coach lettering if they're stuck as 5 car sets?
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TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress
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transmanche
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For those occasions when trackwork means they run doubled-up.
EE Andy b1
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Just thinking about that.
Can two MK5a sets with two Class 68s in normal formation - DT+4+68+DT+4+68 but coupled together be driven from one Driving trailer cab?
Looks like there are no jumpers on the front of the Driving trailers, i mean why would there be?
But if the Driving trailer had a problem (like on MK3 DVTs), say speedometer not working, could a 68 be attached to the front and connected to the DT with full functionality?
Yes i realise the Driving Trailer can have a locomotive of any class attach to the front for assistance and clearing the mainline.
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Bertie the bus
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So never then. Which means the original question remains.
BMIFlyer
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Because passengers still need to find their coach if they have a reservation.
Which won't happen
There won't be two Mk5A sets running joined up so that hasn't been tested.
The DT was towed by a loco on the Velim test track
There are jumper cable sockets on the front of the DT.
Chrisyd
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I wondered about this, could you have a set with the DT at the front, a 68 in the middle, then a reversed set so the DT is the back vehicle (so all driving is done from one or the other DT), or could a 68 not cope with the load of that.
Sure there are lots of other practical reasons which will have the experts eyes rolling at this suggestion!
Sure there are lots of other practical reasons which will have the experts eyes rolling at this suggestion!
Bletchleyite
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Which, if they're not running in pairs, can be done via a much cheaper and more reliable permanent sticker
59CosG95
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Paired running (i.e. two sets of coaches each with a separate loco) is fairly common in Europe; SNCB/NMBS run double formations of coaches & locos every day.
ÖBB also regularly run two Railjet sets together.
There doesn't seem to be any reason why (to my knowledge) that TPE couldn't couple 2 68+Mk5 sets together in service, unless the Mk5s are wired such that 2 68s couldn't work in multiple through the wiring of the coaches and then the jumper cables at the end.
Spartacus
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Which, if they're not running in pairs, can be done via a much cheaper and more reliable permanent sticker
The stickers they have now aren't all that reliable, often get removed by disorderly passengers and aren't always in the same place depending on guard. Anything more permanent could create issues if vehicles are swapped out for repairs. What they have seems good to me, and the cost is going to be small compared to the cost of the whole vehicle. I wonder how much repeatedly replacing stickers might cost over the lifetime?
61653 HTAFC
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Is the right answer!
Can't believe the rare/never event of doubling up was the first thought...
Spartacus
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Can't believe the rare/never event of doubling up was the first thought...
At the moment the only time I can envisage it being useful is for additionals for events like magic weekend in Newcastle, so many platforms would simply be too short.
xotGD
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They won't be serving Newcastle.
Spartacus
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And they won't be doubling up either, just a theoretical possibility.
gimmea50anyday
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Don't blame the guards for the coach letters being in the wrong place. They are supposed to be fitted off depot or by the cleaners. That isn't always the case however, especially when sets have been run in multiple and staff can't necessarily replace labels in both sets in the short turnaround times we do get.
notlob.divad
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When they where ordered, the plan was that they would eventually be serving Newcastle. Once Stalybridge <-> York wiring was complete. Alass....
Bornin1980s
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This was done with GWR autocoach sets at one time, two autocoaches with a small tank loco between them.
I would imagine one 68 would not be enough for two sets. Even if it could supply enough on-board power for all the systems (which I doubt), a doubling of the design load would seriously affect the acceleration. It won't be able to keep the timetable.
Also, few stations can hold what would effectively be an eleven car train.
BMIFlyer
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Which also won’t happen. As the trains are fixed formation sets, if one vehicle breaks the set is taken out of use, or doesn’t enter service until fixed, technically.
The only vehicle, per-say, that would be swapped is a new loco being added after maintenance or the extra (spare) DT being used in place of another to get some mileage in or after collision damage.
transmanche
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So, are you saying that it is technically not possible to run mk5set+68+mk5set+68? (So that, for example, if the TPE core had reduced capacity it might be possible to send a Middlesbrough and a Scarborough service together and separating them at York?) Or just that it's unlikely.
No need to sneer. I could have just said 'for flexibility', but thought I'd give an example of why such flexibility might be useful.Can't believe the rare/never event of doubling up was the first thought...
EE Andy b1
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My original point was that if one Class 68 + MK5a set was having difficulties say with speedometer or TPWS/DSD or even low on power, could another Class 68 + MK5a set be coupled and the whole train be driven from the leading DT cab with full operation of doors, SDO (Selective Door Operation)/interlocking and power to be able to clear the mainline not necessarily to work an onward service train like that. Like has been said the platforms just are not long enough but SDO could be used to de-train passengers on the first set then drawn forward for the second.
It sounds like they might be able so will the stock be tested with 2 sets together?
As i said earlier i know these trains will be able to be rescued by any locomotive but there are not too many spare loco's stabled around anymore. As there will be no Thunderbird standby locomotives available and most other trains over the Pennines will be units apart from the odd freight train, these sets will have to be able to rescue each other.
It sounds like they might be able so will the stock be tested with 2 sets together?
As i said earlier i know these trains will be able to be rescued by any locomotive but there are not too many spare loco's stabled around anymore. As there will be no Thunderbird standby locomotives available and most other trains over the Pennines will be units apart from the odd freight train, these sets will have to be able to rescue each other.
The_Engineer
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Hmmm.... we hear what you are saying, but it is not likely that the following train will be a Mk.5 set, is it?? The Class 802 or even a Class 185 will probably be the following train, so the situation of double-setting is not going to arise very often... Recuse more likely by a locomotive sent for the purpose.
61653 HTAFC
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Really don't think I was sneering, certainly not as much as some the other responses... nevertheless, if you took it that way I apologise. I was just genuinely surprised that the first thought for why the coaches have digital coach letter indicators was for doubling up rather than the more likely scenario of a vehicle being swapped out due to a fault. Yes I've seen the Belgian sets working in multiple, and I agree that the ability for one set to rescue another would be useful... but given the unwillingness of the powers that be to extend platforms (not to mention how long it takes to do when it is approved) the likelihood of regular doubling up is very small indeed. Though such an ability could prove useful during the proposed Trans-Pennine Route Upgrade.
In any case, the current plan for the TPE timetable would make it unlikely that any service following a failed Mk5a set will be another Mk5a set!
SP Man
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The answer on if two sets can be worked together is a yes and no.
In a failure, it should be possible but only for clearing the line. It starts to get a bit of a problem on where the loco is and where driven from. You can not have 3 class 68s in multi and if driven from the DT that would count as a 68 for this. If you put DT to DT or have the rear 68 shut down (creates other problems!) Then it could have full operation of the brakes and power. The big thing that stops it for normal operation is that between the coaches are about 6 CAF cables such carry all the control for doors, air con, lights, etc. Between the T1 (end coach to loco) are only the 2 standard 68 multi cables and only 1 CAF cable. Therefore if two sets where coupled together there is not the control cables between the two sets to allow door operation and monitoring along with all the other safety systems (fire systems, HABD monitoring, passcom) along with everything else air con, lights, etc). So the simple answer is no they will not work together but can be assisted by another set, as it could be assisted by any other loco hauled train. Hope that's clear.
In a failure, it should be possible but only for clearing the line. It starts to get a bit of a problem on where the loco is and where driven from. You can not have 3 class 68s in multi and if driven from the DT that would count as a 68 for this. If you put DT to DT or have the rear 68 shut down (creates other problems!) Then it could have full operation of the brakes and power. The big thing that stops it for normal operation is that between the coaches are about 6 CAF cables such carry all the control for doors, air con, lights, etc. Between the T1 (end coach to loco) are only the 2 standard 68 multi cables and only 1 CAF cable. Therefore if two sets where coupled together there is not the control cables between the two sets to allow door operation and monitoring along with all the other safety systems (fire systems, HABD monitoring, passcom) along with everything else air con, lights, etc). So the simple answer is no they will not work together but can be assisted by another set, as it could be assisted by any other loco hauled train. Hope that's clear.
EE Andy b1
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Excellent SP Man, that clears it up for me, thanks.
Bornin1980s
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Why can't more than two 68s work in multiple? Couldn't even locos from the '60s work more than two in multiple?
I suspect it's due to the on board TMS getting confused with 68s and the MK5a DVTs. I'm sure 68s could work in multiple if needs be.
SansHache
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A few photos of the TPE Mark 5A set that is currently parked up at the Alstom Manchester Traincare Centre (Longsight Depot). The Class 37 stabled on the adjacent road provides an interesting comparison in front-end designs. There again will the Mark 5As still be running beyond their 50th birthday?
At the rate of turnover in some areas, the Mk5As probably won't be running in 10 years time.
Erniescooper
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There should be an early morning run to Carlisle and back tomorrow with 68025 and Set 4 putting in their first appearance.
On the subject of running 2 Sets The ETH index of 96 from the Class 68 isn't enough for 2 sets as a single set comes 59.5.
On the subject of running 2 Sets The ETH index of 96 from the Class 68 isn't enough for 2 sets as a single set comes 59.5.
SP Man
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Where did you get the ETS ratings from for the DT and Mk5As?
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