Class 87 on the GWML

The_Train · 21 Sep 2018

EE Andy b1 said:
I believe this 87 and the other AC loco's will be finishing with Caledonian once the Mk5 sleepers come into operation. Will be such a shame.

I had the privilege of driving Class 87s over two different periods in my railway career. The first was mainly on freight under British Rail as was and secondly when i moved to Virgin Trains. Even then with there age and the mileage they had done they were still a superb locomotive to work with and to my mind much better than the Class 90 that followed.
The fact that these loco's are still working in Bulgaria says plenty and surely we could have kept them going for more years in the UK. Freightliner for one.

That must have made for a great office to work from?

I was amazed that the decision was made to basically clear this superb class from the UK rail network. As you say, they are still going strong in Bulgaria and surely had something to offer a FOC (Freightliner being the obvious) in this country.

Will be interesting to see what happens to 002 once it is deemed surplus to requirements with Caledonian Sleeper. Will it become a permanent feature on mainline rail tours?

RailUK Forums

NSEFAN · 21 Sep 2018

The_Train said:
That must have made for a great office to work from?

I was amazed that the decision was made to basically clear this superb class from the UK rail network. As you say, they are still going strong in Bulgaria and surely had something to offer a FOC (Freightliner being the obvious) in this country.

Will be interesting to see what happens to 002 once it is deemed surplus to requirements with Caledonian Sleeper. Will it become a permanent feature on mainline rail tours?

Is the loco not still used for ECS moves to Wembley? In terms of uses, the number of demic class 90s stored at Crewe is indicative that electric freight is sadly not in need of any more locomotives. The class 87s are express locomotives and squadron fleet of them clearly has no use in the UK, certainly not at the time when they were withdrawn. It was nonetheless excellent to ride behind one at 100mph on the GWML. The loco certainly drew a crowd at Paddington!

33056 · 21 Sep 2018

DarloRich said:
Does anyone know if the tour paused briefly at Blethcley to pick up a new driver? It was signaled straight through but cam to a stand in P5

Dropped a member of staff off I believe.

It was good to experience an 87 on the GWML last night but it wasn't the first AC loco on the line, at least one class 90 made it over there in the mid 1990s to test the OHLE for the Heathrow Express.

route101 · 21 Sep 2018

Loved the noise of them , done a few trips on trains hauled by 87 and 86 . The 86 and 87 s sounded very similar , is one louder ? The 90s dont have strong noise

jimm · 21 Sep 2018

NSEFAN said:
The class 87s are express locomotives

All the West Coast electric locos were designed to be mixed traffic machines, and while the 87s spent most of their lives in the UK on front-rank passenger duties, they also did other work at times.

https://andrewstransport.smugmug.com/Britishelectriclocomotives/Class-87-electrics-1970s/i-HRVfm6t

Apart from the odd charter, freight traffic is all that the ones now used in Bulgaria haul.

Ianno87 · 21 Sep 2018

jimm said:
All the West Coast electric locos were designed to be mixed traffic machines, and while the 87s spent most of their lives in the UK on front-rank passenger duties, they also did other work at times.

https://andrewstransport.smugmug.com/Britishelectriclocomotives/Class-87-electrics-1970s/i-HRVfm6t

Apart from the odd charter, freight traffic is all that the ones now used in Bulgaria haul.

87101/87001 'Stephenson' I recall in the mid-90s being [then] the sole class member allocated to Railfreight duties (it was on-standard due to Thyristor controls, or something technical I don't understand; hence it's 87/1 designation)

jimm · 21 Sep 2018

There is information about 87101 and its varied career here. The name Stephenson was transferred to it from 87001, which was a standard 87.

http://www.leightonlogs.org/87101remembered.htm

Ianno87 · 21 Sep 2018

jimm said:
There is information about 87101 and its varied career here. The name Stephenson was transferred to it from 87001, which was a standard 87.

http://www.leightonlogs.org/87101remembered.htm

Very interesting - thank you!

GRALISTAIR · 21 Sep 2018

I lived in Preston next to the WCML when it was electrified and they were introduced and during the enthusiasts HAULAGE era. Had tens of thousands of miles behind them 87004 is the machine I have most miles behind and 87026 the least. I remember the Stephenson Locomotive society naming 87001 Stephenson and as has been pointed out above it was later transferred to 87101 which had thyristor control. 87001 became Royal Scot

Ash Bridge · 21 Sep 2018

GRALISTAIR said:
I lived in Preston next to the WCML when it was electrified and they were introduced and during the enthusiasts HAULAGE era. Had tens of thousands of miles behind them 87004 is the machine I have most miles behind and 87026 the least. I remember the Stephenson Locomotive society naming 87001 Stephenson and as has been pointed out above it was later transferred to 87101 which had thyristor control. 87001 became Royal Scot

Gralistair, re: 87004 I'm sure you would be happy to learn that she is still earning her keep hauling freight trains on the other side of Europe, in Bulgaria to be precise. Also still wearing BR blue livery just like 87001 was at the Reddish ETD 1974 open day below....

Mag_seven · 21 Sep 2018

route101 said:
The 86 and 87 s sounded very similar , is one louder

They sound quite different AFAIAC.

captainbigun · 21 Sep 2018

The sound the same as the cooling arrangement is exactly the same to the point that components can be swapped. 90s are different as they have a different arrangement.

Mag_seven · 21 Sep 2018

captainbigun said:
The sound the same as the cooling arrangement is exactly the same to the point that components can be swapped. 90s are different as they have a different arrangement.

I was thinking more traction motor noise - the 87 had a louder higher pitch (especially when accelerating), the class 86 a lower pitched almost duller sound.

3141 · 21 Sep 2018

New trains these days apparently have to be extensively tested on the routes they are going to work on, even when they've been built to the same gauge as existing ones. Why can a class 87, which can never have worked along the GWML before, get away with not being tested and certified almost to extinction?

31160 · 21 Sep 2018

33056 said:
Dropped a member of staff off I believe.

It was good to experience an 87 on the GWML last night but it wasn't the first AC loco on the line, at least one class 90 made it over there in the mid 1990s to test the OHLE for the Heathrow Express.

Your right there I saw it parked up in Hayes bay platform (I think) Rfd 90 t&t with a 47

captainbigun · 21 Sep 2018

3141 said:
New trains these days apparently have to be extensively tested on the routes they are going to work on, even when they've been built to the same gauge as existing ones. Why can a class 87, which can never have worked along the GWML before, get away with not being tested and certified almost to extinction?

You assume no work went in?

Significant work went in. More broadly, it has significant operating history in the UK across all of the electrified network. It's infrastructure interface is well understood and documented.

The_Train · 21 Sep 2018

3141 said:
New trains these days apparently have to be extensively tested on the routes they are going to work on, even when they've been built to the same gauge as existing ones. Why can a class 87, which can never have worked along the GWML before, get away with not being tested and certified almost to extinction?

Is the fact that it's a legendary machine a good enough reason?

The_Train · 21 Sep 2018

Mag_seven said:
I was thinking more traction motor noise - the 87 had a louder higher pitch (especially when accelerating), the class 86 a lower pitched almost duller sound.

I can definitely remember there being a notable difference between 87s and 86s when I was younger. Whether I'd notice the difference now I've aged is anyone's guess

NSEFAN · 21 Sep 2018

3141 said:
New trains these days apparently have to be extensively tested on the routes they are going to work on, even when they've been built to the same gauge as existing ones. Why can a class 87, which can never have worked along the GWML before, get away with not being tested and certified almost to extinction?

Isnt most of the testing for new trains done to iron out technical faults before introduction into service? The class 87 on the other hand is already known to be in full working condition.

3141 · 21 Sep 2018

The_Train said:
Is the fact that it's a legendary machine a good enough reason?

Not on today's railway!!! Legends won't cut much ice with Health and Safety. Could a 377 run to Weymouth, or a 450 to Dover, without a very substantial amount of testing beforehand?

3141 · 21 Sep 2018

captainbigun said:
You assume no work went in?

Significant work went in. More broadly, it has significant operating history in the UK across all of the electrified network. It's infrastructure interface is well understood and documented.

That's interesting. I was assuming that if a class 87 had been physically tested on the GWML before yesterday's run someone would have reported it, and I've formed the impression that such testing, rather than a desk-based assessment, would have been essential. If the "infrastructure interface" of the GWML is so similar to that on the other main line electrified routes, would railtours from Paddington with a Pendolino or a class 91 + mark 4 set be possible?

Clarence Yard · 21 Sep 2018

Definitely a hellfire moment but not quite the first time an 87 has been on WR metals. I had Willesden yards raided (legally) for a couple of exhibits for the 1994 OOC "Modern Traction" display area. 90129 and 87101 were hauled over as a result.

87101 was a big choice for me as I was a member of the staff at Hornsey when it arrived in 1986 for the OHL trials. But I wasn't the person at HE who stuck a Network South East sticker on it's bodyside! Willesden were less than amused when they got it back.

Nice to see one actually working on the WR, rather than just parked up. I hope GBRf can eventually get 87002 through the tunnel to Cardiff - that would be a real sight to see!

captainbigun · 21 Sep 2018

You know the kinematic envelope of the loco. You know the gauging of the route. Why do you need to physically run a loco to test this? You know the performance of the loco on the overhead, it's a simple transformer arrangement, no switching, no risk of interference.

Anything is possible, it's down to time and effort to do the paperwork. In this case GBRf put significant effort into this, much of that out of the company's time.

Mag_seven · 21 Sep 2018

3141 said:
New trains these days apparently have to be extensively tested on the routes they are going to work on, even when they've been built to the same gauge as existing ones. Why can a class 87, which can never have worked along the GWML before, get away with not being tested and certified almost to extinction?

There are significantly more risks with new stock than there is with tried and tested stock.

Taunton · 21 Sep 2018

3141 said:
Not on today's railway!!! Legends won't cut much ice with Health and Safety. Could a 377 run to Weymouth, or a 450 to Dover, without a very substantial amount of testing beforehand?

Well I can remember maybe more than one Hall on Taunton shed with little scrape marks on its cylinder cover where it had been sent (doubtless) over the Southern, and rubbed along something. And on we go. Where's the shed painter?

I can't recall a single incident of significance in past times due to a gauging issue. So much of the current exhaustive testing seems to be a makework.

You have to admit, if something's going to fit anywhere, it's going to fit in the ex-GWR structure gauge!

I had the privilege of driving Class 87s ... a superb locomotive to work with and to my mind much better than the Class 90 that followed

I chanced to be in Glasgow at the lunchtime in May 1974 when it was the first day of the throughout WCML electrification, and so went over to see the very first electric arrival from Euston, 0745 due at 1245, as they actually seemed to be diesel hauled to the day before, no huge advance running. Came in to the minute behind an 87. Maybe half a dozen rail managers to see it in, one took a photograph, probably his own camera. No fuss. Thereafter I had years of runs behind them, without a single issue. They seemed a lot more robust than an 86/2.

The 90 was apparently originally to be class 87/2, but seems to have had so many changes and variances from its supposed predecessor.

The_Train · 21 Sep 2018

3141 said:
Not on today's railway!!! Legends won't cut much ice with Health and Safety. Could a 377 run to Weymouth, or a 450 to Dover, without a very substantial amount of testing beforehand?

It was said slightly tongue in cheek

driver_m · 21 Sep 2018

Echo totally what Andy said about the 87. Privileged to have driven that fantastic machine and long may it continue to grace our lines. Doesn't get the kudos of a Deltic or a kettle, but for me, it's better than either of those .You will not hear any driver who's ever signed 87s have a bad word to say about them. Absolutely love to see one of these going over the Pennines or heading beyond Bristol. One day maybe.......

They do sound slightly different to an 86. It's only slight but I can tell them apart by sound, but I suppose that's with being on them regularly .

randyrippley · 21 Sep 2018

GRALISTAIR said:
I lived in Preston next to the WCML when it was electrified and they were introduced and during the enthusiasts HAULAGE era. Had tens of thousands of miles behind them 87004 is the machine I have most miles behind and 87026 the least. I remember the Stephenson Locomotive society naming 87001 Stephenson and as has been pointed out above it was later transferred to 87101 which had thyristor control. 87001 became Royal Scot

I thought the loco which had the Stephenson plates removed was renamed Locomotion - also in honour of Stephenson

GRALISTAIR · 21 Sep 2018

randyrippley said:
I thought the loco which had the Stephenson plates removed was renamed Locomotion - also in honour of Stephenson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_Rail_Class_87_locomotives

I know Wikipedia is not the most reliable source but it does not look like it

Mag_seven · 21 Sep 2018

randyrippley said:
I thought the loco which had the Stephenson plates removed was renamed Locomotion - also in honour of Stephenson

Definitely not.

Class 87 on the GWML

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