Longer distance light engine moves by diesel shunters

The_Engineer · 18 Sep 2018

In my younger days, I can recall that diesel shunters could undertake quite lengthy light engine moves under their on power, particularly from home depots to distant outstations. My home depot at Northwich didn't have it's own allocation of diesel shunters, but had up to four Class 08s or 11s sub-allocated from, at first, Crewe (early 60s), and later Speke Junction/Allerton (mid 60s into the 70s).

Transfers from Crewe used the relatively quiet Middlewich line, but later transfers to and from Allerton had a tricky dash between Hartford (LNW junction) and Ditton Junction along a two-track section, albeit they could be looped to Acton Bridge, or at Weaver Junction. At 15 mph flat-out, the signallers had to choose their moment carefully!! I did witness these transfers quite a few times.

For longer distances still, such as re-allocations or trips to works, shunters could often be seen, minus con rods, tucked into freight trains. I can recall seeing this on a few occasions on the WCML at Hartford, Class 08s on their way to Derby Loco Works and Scottish 0-4-0s being reallocated into Crewe Works.

I was wondering who else remembers these movements?? Nowadays, it seems that all diesel shunter moves are by road. I wonder what the longest distance diesel shunter light engine moves are, that take place nowadays??

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theblackwatch · 18 Sep 2018

I can remember going to Dringhouses Yard at York once as a Scottish 08 that I needed for sight (723 from memory, but I might be wrong) was stabled there, en-route from its home depot in Scotland to a works (Doncaster, Derby or even maybe Swindon) for overhaul. Fortunately, it was parked just by the entrance gate.

08s, and latterly 03s, used to run between York and Scarborough when the station pilot was swapped. I suspect the change to 03s was due to the fact they could do the journey faster, being 27mph machines rather than 15mph.

Springs Branch · 19 Sep 2018

I remember on several occasions in the late 1960s or early 70s seeing a lone Class 08 pottering southwards along the 2-track section of the WCML just north of Wigan around mid-morning.

Years later, when I began to collect old Working Timetables via eBay, I found this was the daily transfer of a shunting loco between Preston Holding Sidings or Ribble Sidings and Springs Branch Diesel Depot.

By the late 1970s, this transfer was done in the quieter hours - 04:00 departure northwards from Springs Branch, 05:15 return from Preston (presumably same crew with a different loco). The columns in the WTT were helpfully annotated "15 MPH MAXIMUM SPEED" and the shunter was booked to take 24 minutes between Wigan NW and Balshaw Lane Junction (where the slow lines resume).

In the early 70s, however, when the shunter trip seemed to run in the middle of the day, it was surprising the move was booked for the main line via Boars Head and Wigan NW, rather than over the Whelley Loop from Standish Jn to Bamfurlong Jn (the Whelley line around the eastern side of Wigan was the route taken by many of the WCML's slow and loose-coupled goods trains up until closure in late 1972).

This was probably an indication of the sleepy pace of life on the northern WCML in those days. How many Pendolinos, TP Expresses, freights and EMUs would be breathing down the neck of a Class 08 if it was trundling at 15 m.p.h. along that part of the WCML today?

bishdunster · 19 Sep 2018

When I was a mere signal lad in Bournemouth box in the about 1970ish, ISTR that on a weekend one of the Weymouth class 03s would run with a brake van Weymouth-Eastleigh, a somewhat monotonous trip and rumour has it that a wooden rail key was an essential part of the in cab equipment !!!

gg1 · 19 Sep 2018

When did the change to transporting them on the back of low loaders occur, was it post privatisation or in BR days?

ChiefPlanner · 19 Sep 2018

gg1 said:
When did the change to transporting them on the back of low loaders occur, was it post privatisation or in BR days?

BR was getting a bit weary of it - example of Colchester to Stratford for an 08 was bad enough , I can think of some 08's transferred from South Wales to Acton which took 3 weeks (due to many weekend blocks Parkway to Swindon) ..

The craziest suggestion - sensibly stopped - was for an 09 from Woking Yard to Fort William. A 26 or similar was allocated for local shunting. Road does make sense at times....

6Gman · 19 Sep 2018

I recall sitting by the side of the line near Nantwich some years ago (late 70s?) and hearing the most dreadful racket gradually getting nearer and nearer. Hadn't a clue what it was. The end of the world? The horsemen of the apocalypse?

Round the corner came a pair of 08s on their way from Salop to Crewe.

The racket really was extraordinary!

westcoaster · 19 Sep 2018

Is there still any use of class 08/09 on mainline workings.

306024 · 19 Sep 2018

Saturday afternoon (if memory serves) the Tilbury line shunt engines used to gather at Ripple Lane for a convey to Stratford, to return Sunday evening. Similar for Parkeston shunt locos to Colchester. Going all the way from Parkeston to Stratford was indeed a slow move.

theageofthetra · 20 Sep 2018

I am amazed they had enough fuel to do some of those longer runs- were they very economical or had bigger tanks than you would think?

sprinterguy · 21 Sep 2018

theageofthetra said:
I am amazed they had enough fuel to do some of those longer runs- were they very economical or had bigger tanks than you would think?

The latter - They've got a fuel tank capacity of 3037 litres; over double that of a class 03, and more than that of an unmodified class 20, 25 or 31.

gg1 said:
When did the change to transporting them on the back of low loaders occur, was it post privatisation or in BR days?

As ChiefPlanner states, I think that it was starting to fall from favour in the latter days of BR, but it was only privatisation that really killed it: I recall Heaton's last class 08 at the time trundling down the Durham Coast under its own power circa 1999 in the process of being transferred to Thornaby - a distance of around 38 miles.

Saltleyman · 21 Sep 2018

At Saltley we regularly changed the shunt loco at Banbury and also Three Spires Junction(Coventry).

gg1 · 21 Sep 2018

sprinterguy said:
The latter - They've got a fuel tank capacity of 3037 litres; over double that of a class 03, and more than that of an unmodified class 20, 25 or 31.

Impressive, roughly how long would that amount of fuel last in normal operation?

eastwestdivide · 21 Sep 2018

How long would the fuel last?
Difficult to answer, as it would depend on how much use the individual shunt duty involved.
There's a page over at the RCTS Diesel Dilemmas, showing observations of outstationed shunters on the SR in Kent/E Sussex in the 70s/80s (to which I contributed some sightings).
https://www.rcts.org.uk/features/diesels/index.htm?id=diesels/kent east sussex shunters
The Medway sightings trend towards indicating that a single shunter would go about 2 weeks before disappearing back towards London for fuel/servicing. That location wasn't being shunted 24/7, probably only a few hours a day, and running from Rochester yard to Gillingham at weekends to stable.
But the Hoo Junction duty back then would have seen much more work than the Medway one, and not just departmental/engineers trains like today.

lyndhurst25 · 21 Sep 2018

westcoaster said:
Is there still any use of class 08/09 on mainline workings.

Probably one of the last and maybe it no longer runs - the 8K77 Milford Sidings to Knottingley Depot trip conveying wagons for repair?

Taunton · 21 Sep 2018

Taunton in earlier diesel days had three 08s and four 03s allocated. The latter however had no duties actually at Taunton, but were all down at Bridgwater, 12 miles north, where they shunted the old docks and various industries. However, there was a lull in mid-afternoon Down services from there to Taunton which would be used for one of them to rumble back to Taunton shed for periodic refuelling. Their additional speed compared to an 08 was doubtless an advantage.

The Gardner engine and the Wilson epicyclic gearbox in the 03 were fine for 70mph in coaches of the era, I wonder why they were so restricted on the railway. probably had a very low final drive ratio.

There was also the Departmental loco PWM652 which normally lived at the engineering Fairwater Yard west of town, but would waddle down to the shed on Friday mornings to refuel prior to being out on the line with weekend works. Now apparently all the old Western PWMs (later Class 97), mechanically similar to an 03, used to range far and wide from base on engineering tasks, they must have been quite up to doing considerable distances.

Cowley · 22 Sep 2018

Taunton said:
Taunton in earlier diesel days had three 08s and four 03s allocated. The latter however had no duties actually at Taunton, but were all down at Bridgwater, 12 miles north, where they shunted the old docks and various industries. However, there was a lull in mid-afternoon Down services from there to Taunton which would be used for one of them to rumble back to Taunton shed for periodic refuelling. Their additional speed compared to an 08 was doubtless an advantage.

The Gardner engine and the Wilson epicyclic gearbox in the 03 were fine for 70mph in coaches of the era, I wonder why they were so restricted on the railway. probably had a very low final drive ratio.

There was also the Departmental loco PWM652 which normally lived at the engineering Fairwater Yard west of town, but would waddle down to the shed on Friday mornings to refuel prior to being out on the line with weekend works. Now apparently all the old Western PWMs (later Class 97), mechanically similar to an 03, used to range far and wide from base on engineering tasks, they must have been quite up to doing considerable distances.

Great to see 97652 (PEM652) mentioned.
I don’t know if I ever saw it actually moving, but this photo taken by Neil Cannon at Exeter Riverside in 1986 had me chuckling...

It was such a local fixture back then, and year by year seemed to become more and more decrepit. :lol:

I reckon it must’ve covered a fair few miles on the mainline over the years?

randyrippley · 22 Sep 2018

Taunton said:
Taunton in earlier diesel days had three 08s and four 03s allocated. The latter however had no duties actually at Taunton, but were all down at Bridgwater, 12 miles north, where they shunted the old docks and various industries. However, there was a lull in mid-afternoon Down services from there to Taunton which would be used for one of them to rumble back to Taunton shed for periodic refuelling. Their additional speed compared to an 08 was doubtless an advantage.

The Gardner engine and the Wilson epicyclic gearbox in the 03 were fine for 70mph in coaches of the era, I wonder why they were so restricted on the railway. probably had a very low final drive ratio.

There was also the Departmental loco PWM652 which normally lived at the engineering Fairwater Yard west of town, but would waddle down to the shed on Friday mornings to refuel prior to being out on the line with weekend works. Now apparently all the old Western PWMs (later Class 97), mechanically similar to an 03, used to range far and wide from base on engineering tasks, they must have been quite up to doing considerable distances.

Did you have any knowledge of DS1169? That was based at Yeovil Junction for several years but I never managed to work out if it just shunted in the PW yard, or was allowed out on the line. That must have been one of the slowest of all the departmental shunters

Taunton · 22 Sep 2018

Never saw it. I thought books told me it was at Broad Clyst PW depot rather than Yeovil Junction. Did it work at both and travel between them?

Hals · 22 Sep 2018

Hull Botanic Gardens based 08's would travel to Goole under their own power. I observed a few of these movements in the late 70's/early 80's.

randyrippley · 22 Sep 2018

Taunton said:
Never saw it. I thought books told me it was at Broad Clyst PW depot rather than Yeovil Junction. Did it work at both and travel between them?

It moved base from Broad Clyst to Yeovil late 1960's.....and then collapsed with rust (the roof fell off) mid-70's but I never found out exactly what it was used for

6Gman · 22 Sep 2018

Cowley said:
Great to see 97652 (PEM652) mentioned.
I don’t know if I ever saw it actually moving, but this photo taken by Neil Cannon at Exeter Riverside in 1986 had me chuckling...
View attachment 52879
It was such a local fixture back then, and year by year seemed to become more and more decrepit.
I reckon it must’ve covered a fair few miles on the mainline over the years?

Adrian Booth wrote an excellent booklet about the PWMs (published by the Industrial Railway Society) which contains a mass of information about their duties and movements.

t_star2001uk · 22 Sep 2018

Back in the early 90's i can remember doing the Norwood pilot changeover from Hither Green. The routing was Hither Green to London Bridge (Central Side) where the Hither Green crew left it for the Norwood crew to take over...

47403 · 23 Sep 2018

I found this on Facebook. I'd heard the tale of this many a time but never seen it myself. Photo accredited to the late Bill.Hildreth and posted on Facebook by Lee Edmundson

" To start us off, a picture that must have meant hell on Earth for anyone unfortunate to get one of these jobs on a shift. Swapping the Berwick 03 pilot over, meant taking it back to Gateshead. I saw these a few times, normally a Sunday, as traffic on the ECML was lighter, and we were talking a max speed of 25mph"
The following photos is accredited to the late Bill Hildreth.

A journey.of roughly 68 miles.

Taunton · 23 Sep 2018

The taking a Match Wagon with an 03 on the main line seems to have been an Eastern Region thing; the 03 moves I described above between Bridgwater and Taunton didn't do so.

Having read long ago that it was to help operate the track circuits, I felt that strange, as the axle weight of the 03 was surely more than an empty open wagon. But quite recently I read that it wasn't the weight operating the circuits, rather that the circuits themselves, maybe a particular Eastern Region design, might not be sufficiently continuous across points & crossings etc, or even just at the insulation boundaries, and if such a short wheelbase loco came to a stand at such a track circuit boundary, especially in automatic signalling areas, it might be undetected, so the wagon was for length, not weight.

Someone will hopefully be along shortly with the definitive explanation.

Pigeon · 23 Sep 2018

Track circuits or treadle bars? Incompatibility between wheelbases and treadle bars certainly did exist as a problem, but I don't know if that was or could be relevant in this case.

Cowley · 23 Sep 2018

47403 said:
I found this on Facebook. I'd heard the tale of this many a time but never seen it myself. Photo accredited to the late Bill.Hildreth and posted on Facebook by Lee Edmundson

" To start us off, a picture that must have meant hell on Earth for anyone unfortunate to get one of these jobs on a shift. Swapping the Berwick 03 pilot over, meant taking it back to Gateshead. I saw these a few times, normally a Sunday, as traffic on the ECML was lighter, and we were talking a max speed of 25mph"
The following photos is accredited to the late Bill Hildreth.
View attachment 52908
A journey.of roughly 68 miles.

That’s a long way. Plenty of time to contemplate your life.

47403 · 23 Sep 2018

Cowley said:
That’s a long way. Plenty of time to contemplate your life.

Certainly is Cowley. Almost enough time to start a new one

Cowley · 23 Sep 2018

47403 said:
Certainly is Cowley. Almost enough time to start a new one

Brilliant.

randyrippley · 23 Sep 2018

47403 said:
I found this on Facebook. I'd heard the tale of this many a time but never seen it myself. Photo accredited to the late Bill.Hildreth and posted on Facebook by Lee Edmundson

" To start us off, a picture that must have meant hell on Earth for anyone unfortunate to get one of these jobs on a shift. Swapping the Berwick 03 pilot over, meant taking it back to Gateshead. I saw these a few times, normally a Sunday, as traffic on the ECML was lighter, and we were talking a max speed of 25mph"
The following photos is accredited to the late Bill Hildreth.
View attachment 52908
A journey.of roughly 68 miles.

is that 03 running wrong line or is it pushing the match truck?

Longer distance light engine moves by diesel shunters

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