York to Newcastle TOC only tickets - new options

ys123 · 27 Jun 2018

Last year CrossCountry had York to Newcastle XC only off peak return tickets for £18.
TPE undercut them by 10p at £17.90.
XC then stopped the XC only £18 tickets around Dec/Jan time, so TPE then put the price up of the £17.90 TPE only ticket to £29.90 (besides same day return at £26.50).

VTEC/LNER recently introduced £26.50 off peak return (valid after 9.15am) so TPE undercut them by offering £25 Super off peak return (only valid after 10am).

The £26.50 TPE same day return is currently pointless as there are no TPE trains between YRK-NCL leaving York or Newcastle between 9.30am-10am. After 10am one can just buy the cheaper £25 and get the flexibility of not having to travel back the same day.

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Merseysider · 27 Jun 2018

It’s also clear evidence that the interavailable York to Newcastle fare is ridiculously overpriced.

Gareth Marston · 27 Jun 2018

aahh the benefits of competition..... cough cough

ys123 · 27 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
aahh the benefits of competition..... cough cough

It's a question of a pros and cons.
Con: extra hassle finding the best ticket by having so many different options
Pro: Cheaper tickets
Personally i prefer the extra hassle if it means cheaper tickets...

AlterEgo · 27 Jun 2018

ys123 said:
It's a question of "Complicating the process of finding the best ticket" vs "Cheaper tickets"... Personally i prefer cheaper tickets...

You’re suggesting that complication goes hand in hand with more expensive tickets. That’s not the case. It’s usually simplicity that comes with greater expense.

ys123 · 27 Jun 2018

AlterEgo said:
You’re suggesting that complication goes hand in hand with more expensive tickets. That’s not the case. It’s usually simplicity that comes with greater expense.

You're right. I misworded it (is misworded a word, or is misworded also misworded?

). Will edit it.

yorkie · 27 Jun 2018

Gareth Marston said:
aahh the benefits of competition..... cough cough

The inter-available fare is extremely expensive, but LNER are happy for this to be the case, and there isn't anything anyone can do to stop them charging unaffordably high fares.

In fact, if it wasn't for fares regulation, the Off Peak Return (SVR) would be even more expensive than it is currently. Train companies want fares regulation to be abolished so that they can introduce even more restrictions and raise prices even more.

The other companies are able to offer cheaper fares which are valid on their trains only, so yes the existence of affordable fares is a benefit of 'competition' on this route. The DfT and several train companies want to abolish these cheaper fares, thus ensuring everyone either pays for a very expensive inter-available fare, or has to be stuck with an inflexible Advance fare.

The train companies want to increase fares, reduce flexibility, and tie us down even more than they can at present!

Gareth Marston · 27 Jun 2018

yorkie said:
The inter-available fare is extremely expensive, but LNER are happy for this to be the case, and there isn't anything anyone can do to stop them charging unaffordably high fares.

In fact, if it wasn't for fares regulation, the Off Peak Return (SVR) would be even more expensive than it is currently. Train companies want fares regulation to be abolished so that they can introduce even more restrictions and raise prices even more.

The other companies are able to offer cheaper fares which are valid on their trains only, so yes the existence of affordable fares is a benefit of 'competition' on this route. The DfT and several train companies want to abolish these cheaper fares, thus ensuring everyone either pays for a very expensive inter-available fare, or has to be stuck with an inflexible Advance fare.

The train companies want to increase fares, reduce flexibility, and tie us down even more than they can at present!

I've been splitting tickets on to the TPE only fares as I'm booking people from here via Manchester so their on TPE anyway and the new timetable via Ordsall curves given us better connections to the North East via Manchester.

mikeg · 27 Jun 2018

Noticed this myself, I take it the LNER only ones will be time limited special offers given that LNER are already the fare setters for this flow?

Wallsendmag · 27 Jun 2018

mikeg said:
Noticed this myself, I take it the LNER only ones will be time limited special offers given that LNER are already the fare setters for this flow?

I expect the usual 12 weeks.

YorkC · 7 Sep 2018

The LNER only offpeak & TPE only superoffpeak returns appear to be being withdrawn next week...

ys123 · 7 Sep 2018

YorkC said:
The LNER only offpeak & TPE only superoffpeak returns appear to be being withdrawn next week...

The TPE only ticket that is being withdrawn was only introduced to combat the LNER only ticket. Now that LNER are withdrawing theirs (I think it's due to them being the fare setter for the route they are only allowed it for 12weeks), TPE are also withdrawing theirs....

thedbdiboy · 7 Sep 2018

yorkie said:
In fact, if it wasn't for fares regulation, the Off Peak Return (SVR) would be even more expensive than it is currently. Train companies want fares regulation to be abolished so that they can introduce even more restrictions and raise prices even more.

Not true. The industry wants fares regulation revisited as the original criteria are completely outdated. The decision is one for Government. In the case of the York - Newcastle Lead Operator we are talking about a Government owned TOC subjected to Government regulation running on Government owned infrastructure so not much room for evil private sector conspiracy theories there.

yorkie · 7 Sep 2018

There is nothing to stop the lead operator reducing York to Newcastle.

Fares regulation just prevents them from increasing it too much.

thedbdiboy · 7 Sep 2018

Yes. But the only way to meet the financial bar for winning a franchise is, amongst other things, to maintain every regulated far at its maximum permitted price. In addition, longer distance regulation across a specific fare type means that other fares are priced at higher levels than might otherwise be the case in order to meet the revenue requirements. So part of the 'cost' of regulation falls on taxpayers, and part of it falls on other passengers.

Hadders · 8 Sep 2018

Fares regulation as it exists today is far from perfect but I am very concerned about the rail industry's plans to change the way fares are regulated. We don't have any idea of what this new regulation might look like.

The problem as I see it is train operating companies are short term 'here today gone tomorrow' businesses, most with something like an 8 year franchise. The DfT requires maximum premium payments which means that train operating companies will want to increase to the absolute maximum, and no doubt beyond if they could. Just imagine what VTEC would've done to fares to try and balance the books if they didn't have fares regulation.

Let's look at London to Manchester fares.

Off Peak Return (the regulated fare) £86.90
Anytime Return £338

The Off Peak fare is kept at a reasonable price because it is regulated. I'm sure Virgin would increase it in a flash if there was any possible way they could do so. My suspicion is that TOCs will propose a system whereby fares regulation on off peak fares will be relaxed under the proviso that Anytime fares are reduced. If this happened to London - Manchester fares we'd probably see the Off Peak fare increase to around £150 and the Anytime reduced to around £250. TOCs would claim this would be simpler and fairer.

The Anytime fare would still be grossly overpriced but it would result in a huge increase in previously regulated off peak fares. TOCs and the DfT would be happy with the increase in fares revenue. Passengers would not be.

thedbdiboy · 8 Sep 2018

This is exactly why the review is not a TOC review but an industry review. The liability for balancing fare revenue and taxpayer funding rests with Government and they therefore need to make the decisions. TOCs will do exactly what they are contracted to by Government. In your examples above you have missed out the revenue from (unregulated) Advance fares which in the case of London - Manchester forms a substantial part of the current fares structure - indeed relatively few people buy the Anytime fares. The review is taking into account everything (peak, off-peak, walk up, advance) to develop a future fares structure that is based around current and future buying habits, not those of the 1980s and 1990s which underpin the current structure.

yorkie · 8 Sep 2018

thedbdiboy said:
Yes. But the only way to meet the financial bar for winning a franchise is, amongst other things, to maintain every regulated far at its maximum permitted price. In addition, longer distance regulation across a specific fare type means that other fares are priced at higher levels than might otherwise be the case in order to meet the revenue requirements. So part of the 'cost' of regulation falls on taxpayers, and part of it falls on other passengers.

But this is an argument against the current franchise requirements. It's not an argument against fares regulation. You are absolutely right though; it is the DfT's doing.

However the entire thing will be stopped because we will NOT allow fares to rise. So the only way it can happen is if the Government accepted that the problems stem from trying to put too great a burden on fare payers. That isn't going to happen, and therefore a fares shake up will NOT happen either as we won't let it, due to protests and bad publicity.

bnm · 8 Sep 2018

Hadders said:
Fares regulation as it exists today is far from perfect but I am very concerned about the rail industry's plans to change the way fares are regulated. We don't have any idea of what this new regulation might look like.

The problem as I see it is train operating companies are short term 'here today gone tomorrow' businesses, most with something like an 8 year franchise. The DfT requires maximum premium payments which means that train operating companies will want to increase to the absolute maximum, and no doubt beyond if they could. Just imagine what VTEC would've done to fares to try and balance the books if they didn't have fares regulation.

Let's look at London to Manchester fares.

Off Peak Return (the regulated fare) £86.90
Anytime Return £338

The Off Peak fare is kept at a reasonable price because it is regulated. I'm sure Virgin would increase it in a flash if there was any possible way they could do so. My suspicion is that TOCs will propose a system whereby fares regulation on off peak fares will be relaxed under the proviso that Anytime fares are reduced. If this happened to London - Manchester fares we'd probably see the Off Peak fare increase to around £150 and the Anytime reduced to around £250. TOCs would claim this would be simpler and fairer.

The Anytime fare would still be grossly overpriced but it would result in a huge increase in previously regulated off peak fares. TOCs and the DfT would be happy with the increase in fares revenue. Passengers would not be.

Such a change presupposes passenger numbers will not change, or would increase.

Passengers would desert the railway if the Off Peak fare increased from £86.90 to £150. Its doubtfall the shortfall would be made up by an increase in Anytime fares purchases.

So not a good idea for passengers, TOCs or the DfT.

Doesn't mean the DfT won't do it though!

Hadders · 8 Sep 2018

thedbdiboy said:
This is exactly why the review is not a TOC review but an industry review. The liability for balancing fare revenue and taxpayer funding rests with Government and they therefore need to make the decisions. TOCs will do exactly what they are contracted to by Government. In your examples above you have missed out the revenue from (unregulated) Advance fares which in the case of London - Manchester forms a substantial part of the current fares structure - indeed relatively few people buy the Anytime fares. The review is taking into account everything (peak, off-peak, walk up, advance) to develop a future fares structure that is based around current and future buying habits, not those of the 1980s and 1990s which underpin the current structure.

But when you say it is an industry review the main players are the short term 'here today gone tomorrow' TOCs. Passenger Focus really don't have a good track record in protecting passenger interests and DfT will sign up to anything if they can reduce the amount they pay to fund the industry.

The industry likes to do things like abolish Off Peak Day Returns forcing passengers to buy more expensive Off Peak Returns while at the same time pretending that prices haven't risen. Then there's things like the ridiculous 09:30 off peak fare cut off introduced by Cross Country making long distance journeys all but impossible with off peak tickets unless you split and evening peak restrictions introduced to price gouge and keep the DfT happy but with a little though are easily circumnavigated. Smart cards where instead of a national system every individual operator has their own system which must cost far more than a unified system.

I'm sure the rail industry means well but it doesn't have a good track record in this area and it's understandable that we are sceptical.

bnm said:
Such a change presupposes passenger numbers will not change, or would increase.

Passengers would desert the railway if the Off Peak fare increased from £86.90 to £150. Its doubtfall the shortfall would be made up by an increase in Anytime fares purchases.

So not a good idea for passengers, TOCs or the DfT..
Doesn't mean the DfT won't do it though!

There'd be the promise of loads of cheap advance fares as a sweetener but once the TOC hits a bit of financial turbulence they would vanish or be reduced in number.

sheff1 · 9 Sep 2018

thedbdiboy said:
TOCs will do exactly what they are contracted to by Government.

An interesting assertion. TOCs not do what they are contracted to do in various areas already.

mikeg · 16 Sep 2018

Had it said to me this morning when buying an NTR-YRK TPE only CDR by the ticket seller at Thirsk that these tickets are soon to be withdrawn, but he didn't know exactly when. Don't know when, he says enjoy them while you can. Make of that what you will.

jsmith300 · 24 Sep 2018

And now we have XC advance tickets from Durham to Newcastle, for a 12 minute journey!

jsmith300 · 25 Sep 2018

But interestingly it appears XC are only releasing advance availability on the day.

Starmill · 25 Sep 2018

jsmith300 said:
And now we have XC advance tickets from Durham to Newcastle, for a 12 minute journey!

They have been selling them for Doncaster to Sheffield and Wolverhampton to Birmingham for a while!

Starmill · 25 Sep 2018

If they are withdrawn I expect the TransPennine Only fares will be back at some point. TransPennine Only fares are all over the place these days. e.g.
Stockport to Manchester
Manchester to Manchester Airport
Manchester Airport to Stockport
Dewsbury to Leeds
Huddersfield to Mirfield
Brough to Hull
Penrith to Carlisle

basically almost anywhere. The only place I have not come across one is Leeds to Garforth or Selby to Garforth.

cuccir · 26 Sep 2018

York-Newcastle TOC only fares are a mess that has been going on for nearly a decade now. One of TPE/XC introduce them with no notice in order to annoy whoever's running the Intercity East Coast franchise that week. The other 'minor' operator then undercuts by about 10p on a return. They exist for up to a year or so, then are removed. 18 monhts later, they return in some different form.

We've had at least 3 cycles of this that I can remember of since the late 2000s. I can't see how it makes travel 'Simple' for passengers for these tickets to repeatedly appear and disappear.

FQTV · 26 Sep 2018

cuccir said:
York-Newcastle TOC only fares are a mess that has been going on for nearly a decade now. One of TPE/XC introduce them with no notice in order to annoy whoever's running the Intercity East Coast franchise that week. The other 'minor' operator then undercuts by about 10p on a return. They exist for up to a year or so, then are removed. 18 monhts later, they return in some different form.

We've had at least 3 cycles of this that I can remember of since the late 2000s. I can't see how it makes travel 'Simple' for passengers for these tickets to repeatedly appear and disappear.

I've had the odd conversation with guards between York and Newcastle who have said that the operator-only fares are a nightmare to police, perhaps to the point that they can't bring themselves to do it.

It's potentially somewhat ironic that this route (even more so between Darlington and Newcastle, with four operators) is one of the very few in the country where real 'on rail' competition does exist in the privatised railway, and even in this pure form as perhaps envisaged by some at the outset, the practicalities of it are seriously flawed.

Ironically, doing it the other way around, with a flat fare but tickets which have to be gripped or composted on board to trigger payment to the operator through the Rail Settlement Plan is now perfectly possible with the technology available, and would allow passengers to 'choose' between 'spending' their ticket value on LNER, CrossCountry, Transpennine Express or Northern depending on the level of service offered.

ys123 · 26 Sep 2018

Starmill said:
If they are withdrawn I expect the TransPennine Only fares will be back at some point. TransPennine Only fares are all over the place these days. e.g.
Stockport to Manchester
Manchester to Manchester Airport
Manchester Airport to Stockport
Dewsbury to Leeds
Huddersfield to Mirfield
Brough to Hull
Penrith to Carlisle

basically almost anywhere. The only place I have not come across one is Leeds to Garforth or Selby to Garforth.

TPE are the fare setter for Selby to Garfoth any permitted tickets and are therefore unable to offer flexible TPE only tickets for longer than a 12week period...

yorkie · 26 Sep 2018

cuccir said:
... I can't see how it makes travel 'Simple' for passengers for these tickets to repeatedly appear and disappear.

I agree that the range of fares should be more permanent. I do support there being a wide range of fares available but there should be more consistency regarding their availability.

FQTV said:
I've had the odd conversation with guards between York and Newcastle who have said that the operator-only fares are a nightmare to police, perhaps to the point that they can't bring themselves to do it.

That's because of the unjustifiable rule that the tickets are considered to hold no value when used on the wrong TOC (revenue allocation is not a good excuse; Virgin have to excess "via High Wycombe" fares used on their services via Milton Keynes, for example!) and therefore the TOCs are putting their staff in a position of unnecessary conflict where they are told to charge not just a reasonable excess fare, but for a whole new ticket, which is not acceptable and will lead to customers being understandably unhappy!

York to Newcastle TOC only tickets - new options

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