Merseyrail and Giants event

nedchester · 21 Sep 2018

Having looked at this in more detail for the 'shuttles' between Chester and Hooton I notice the journey time given for Chester to Hooton (non-stop) is the same as that when the trains normally call at Bache and Capenhurst. The return from Hooton to Chester is 1 minute shorter. However, the trains have the normal 4 min turn-round at Chester but 9 min turn-rounds at Hooton.

By simply having an 8 min turn-round the normal calls at Bache (lots of workers at the Countess of Chester hospital) and Capenhurst (lots of workers at the local nuclear facility).

To me it seems to me to be lazy timetable planning with a can't be bothered attitude.

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KevinTurvey · 21 Sep 2018

So as well as no interchange between main line and Wirral lines at Lime St, there also seems to be no possibility of interchanging directly between Wirral and Northern Lines. So you have to get off at Moorfields and walk to Central and vice versa? With all the extra pedestrians and road closures that will take at least 20 minutes.

They have managed crowd control much better than this before.

PS for anyone who is interested, Wirral Bus and Tram show is on the Sunday too.

Bletchleyite · 21 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
To me it seems to me to be lazy [...] with a can't be bothered attitude.

I know where I've seen that before on Merseyrail...

Does anyone know if it is an actual breach of their franchise agreement, or have Merseytravel approved it?

notlob.divad · 21 Sep 2018

What they are doing with the city centre stations seems incredibly sensible to me. Effectively it is one station per 'Line'. Want the Northern Line, use Moorfields, want the Wirral Line, use Central, want the City Lines use Lime Street (Not that this in any different to normal).

I can also understand the shuttle services being brought in at the extremities, if a handful of shuttle diagrams running as 3 car mean the rest of the services can run as 6, that is a small inconvenience producing a major benefit.

However the closure of what is quite a significant number of stations seems to be far beyond what has gone before. The only logical explanation I can find is to do with staffing numbers and crowd management. If the staff from these outer stations are being drafted in to help manage the city centre crowds or assist at the larger stations, then they may not have the human power to staff the smaller stations. I am nt suggesting this is a good reason, just that it could be the reason and the only one I would see some logic in.

nedchester · 21 Sep 2018

notlob.divad said:
What they are doing with the city centre stations seems incredibly sensible to me. Effectively it is one station per 'Line'. Want the Northern Line, use Moorfields, want the Wirral Line, use Central, want the City Lines use Lime Street (Not that this in any different to normal).

I can also understand the shuttle services being brought in at the extremities, if a handful of shuttle diagrams running as 3 car mean the rest of the services can run as 6, that is a small inconvenience producing a major benefit.

However the closure of what is quite a significant number of stations seems to be far beyond what has gone before. The only logical explanation I can find is to do with staffing numbers and crowd management. If the staff from these outer stations are being drafted in to help manage the city centre crowds or assist at the larger stations, then they may not have the human power to staff the smaller stations. I am nt suggesting this is a good reason, just that it could be the reason and the only one I would see some logic in.

I agree that the closure of Liverpool centre stations is fine and sensible but the outlying stations like Capenhurst and Bache are already unmanned.

In any case the services could call at those stations without degradation of the special shuttle service.

peter166 · 21 Sep 2018

If one was doing a journey from a Northern line station which is open & travelling to London or Birmingham from Lime Street then one has to alight at Moorfields and walk 15 or 20 mins to Lime Street and on the return walk back the other way. Is this correct?
Surely this isn't acceptable for people with heavy luggage, or the elderly or people with children & pushchairs or visitors who don't know their way around the city?

notlob.divad · 21 Sep 2018

peter166 said:
If one was doing a journey from a Northern line station which is open & travelling to London or Birmingham from Lime Street then one has to alight at Moorfields and walk 15 or 20 mins to Lime Street and on the return walk back the other way. Is this correct?
Surely this isn't acceptable for people with heavy luggage, or the elderly or people with children & pushchairs or visitors who don't know their way around the city?

If one was doing a journey from an open Northern Line station to London or Birmingham one would be better staying on to Liverpool South Parkway, just as it is any other day of the year. Alternatively the walk between Moorfields and Lime Street is 12minutes according to Google, which means it is probably about 10 minutes for the average mobile adult.

If one happens to be elderly or have particularly heavy luggage, may I suggest the local bus service which I find far and away the best and clearest to navigate of any city in the UK. Buses from Moorfields to the Queen Square Bus station (adjacent to Lime Street Station) are frequent and whilst it does lack somethign of the 'convenience' factor of remaining underground, it does (once awa from Moorfields itself, give you a grand tour of one of the most historic and grandest city centres the UK has to offer.

On the other hand if one happens to be travelling on the dates in question with children, pushchairs, or for any other reason for that matter. I would strongly recommend that you take a little extra time out of your un-doubtely busy schedule to actually go and catch a glimpse of the show. It is not just an occasion for the people of Merseyside, but something of a quite spectaular performance. Whilst it might not be to everyone's taste, passing up the oppurtunity to see it when you are already passing through the city centre would definetly be a lost oppurtunity. I for one, will be rather disappointed that there is no oppurtunity for me to see it this year, particularly given it is almost certainly going to be the last time it visits.

nedchester · 21 Sep 2018

notlob.divad said:
If one was doing a journey from an open Northern Line station to London or Birmingham one would be better staying on to Liverpool South Parkway, just as it is any other day of the year. Alternatively the walk between Moorfields and Lime Street is 12minutes according to Google, which means it is probably about 10 minutes for the average mobile adult.

If one happens to be elderly or have particularly heavy luggage, may I suggest the local bus service which I find far and away the best and clearest to navigate of any city in the UK. Buses from Moorfields to the Queen Square Bus station (adjacent to Lime Street Station) are frequent and whilst it does lack somethign of the 'convenience' factor of remaining underground, it does (once awa from Moorfields itself, give you a grand tour of one of the most historic and grandest city centres the UK has to offer.

On the other hand if one happens to be travelling on the dates in question with children, pushchairs, or for any other reason for that matter. I would strongly recommend that you take a little extra time out of your un-doubtely busy schedule to actually go and catch a glimpse of the show. It is not just an occasion for the people of Merseyside, but something of a quite spectaular performance. Whilst it might not be to everyone's taste, passing up the oppurtunity to see it when you are already passing through the city centre would definetly be a lost oppurtunity. I for one, will be rather disappointed that there is no oppurtunity for me to see it this year, particularly given it is almost certainly going to be the last time it visits.

Merseyrail have taken it upon themselves not to call at South Parkway!

I don't think buses would be a good idea as the road will be very busy with the Giants parade itself!

As I say my main issues is the withdrawal of station stops well away from Liverpool which is a disgrace.

peter166 · 21 Sep 2018

notlob.divad said:
If one was doing a journey from an open Northern Line station to London or Birmingham one would be better staying on to Liverpool South Parkway, just as it is any other day of the year. Alternatively the walk between Moorfields and Lime Street is 12minutes according to Google, which means it is probably about 10 minutes for the average mobile adult.

If one happens to be elderly or have particularly heavy luggage, may I suggest the local bus service which I find far and away the best and clearest to navigate of any city in the UK. Buses from Moorfields to the Queen Square Bus station (adjacent to Lime Street Station) are frequent and whilst it does lack somethign of the 'convenience' factor of remaining underground, it does (once awa from Moorfields itself, give you a grand tour of one of the most historic and grandest city centres the UK has to offer.

On the other hand if one happens to be travelling on the dates in question with children, pushchairs, or for any other reason for that matter. I would strongly recommend that you take a little extra time out of your un-doubtely busy schedule to actually go and catch a glimpse of the show. It is not just an occasion for the people of Merseyside, but something of a quite spectaular performance. Whilst it might not be to everyone's taste, passing up the oppurtunity to see it when you are already passing through the city centre would definetly be a lost oppurtunity. I for one, will be rather disappointed that there is no oppurtunity for me to see it this year, particularly given it is almost certainly going to be the last time it visits.

Liverpool to Euston trains do not stop at Liverpool South Parkway.
I am not aware of any buses that run from outside Moorfields station to Queens Square, which anyway is not adjacent to Lime Street Station which is a good 5 mins walk away
Your reference to making a grand tour of Liverpool is ridiculous when all one wants to do is make a rail journey from A to B by the most convenient & direct route possible.
LSP is no good either if the journey is to Preston or York etc
(I am a resident of Liverpool & have been for 65 years)

peter166 · 21 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
Merseyrail have taken it upon themselves not to call at South Parkway!

I don't think buses would be a good idea as the road will be very busy with the Giants parade itself!

As I say my main issues is the withdrawal of station stops well away from Liverpool which is a disgrace.

Totally agree !

Bletchleyite · 21 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
Merseyrail have taken it upon themselves not to call at South Parkway!

Not in my understanding. They are not serving Hunts X-South Parkway but will run beyond.

But yes to me it's the withdrawal of service at stations far from Liverpool that they should not be allowed to get away with, at least unless RRBs are put on.

Fawkes Cat · 21 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
Merseyrail have taken it upon themselves not to call at South Parkway!

Umm - no they haven't. On Friday and Saturday

Services on the Hunts Cross line will start and terminate at Liverpool South Parkway.

(source - https://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/giants-spectacular.aspx)

nedchester · 21 Sep 2018

Fawkes Cat said:
Umm - no they haven't. On Friday and Saturday

Apologies - you are correct.

nedchester · 21 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Not in my understanding. They are not serving Hunts X-South Parkway but will run beyond.

But yes to me it's the withdrawal of service at stations far from Liverpool that they should not be allowed to get away with, at least unless RRBs are put on.

Exactly.

Would a claim for a taxi for someone trying to get from Chester to Capenhurst be successful?

M28361M · 21 Sep 2018

MP for Sefton, Bill Esterson, is on the case about Hightown, which is quite isolated with few bus services (original tweet):

I’ve also been promised a call from @merseyrail MD, Andy Heath on Monday. Hopefully we will see a change for the better so people in Hightown can travel if they don’t have access to a car when the Giants are here.

The Liverpool Echo has also picked up on the story. Something I missed is that Liverpool are playing at home on the Sunday, but with Sandhills closed, will the popular Soccerbus service be able to run?

Commuters have reacted with fury after finding out trains won't stop at their stations while the Giants are in Liverpool.

Merseyrail yesterday announced that changes will be made across the network over Friday 5, Saturday 6 and Sunday 7 October.

Many workers and parents have taken to Twitter to voice their anger at being left high and dry by the travel provider.

People living in Hightown - one of the stations dropped on these days - are 2.5 miles away from the next station, and there are no bus services.

Hightown resident Karen Littler said: "Plenty of villagers use the train to get to work, as do children to get to school.

"Hightown is the most isolated station on the Northern Line. The only other public transport is an hourly bus which runs Monday-Saturday 8-5, and goes from the village to Crosby."

@hightown_mike tweeted: "Could Merseytravel explain how closing Hightown Station for three days will improve people movement? Are you trying to reduce visitor numbers by stranding an entire village?"

Sefton Central MP has echoed residents' concerns, saying: "Ellesmere Port is to have rail replacement buses for the Giants. How about Hightown? No buses so no chance of travelling for those without a car. Hightown residents need to be able to travel including to see the Giants."

Town Green and Aughton are other stations that will be closed across the weekend.

One Aughton commuter, who wishes to remain anonymous, said: "I've become used to Aughton Park being closed when there are strikes and trains into Liverpool only begin at Maghull - five miles from my house.

"But to cancel trains on a Friday when people actually need them to get to work is just a joke.

"I pay £87 a month for my train ticket and it feels like they've just decided they're going to betray me and all their other regular customers in favour of a big, profitable tourist weekend.

Merseyrail has responded to the criticisms, saying the special events timetable is to ensure a 'robust and reliable service'.

Their spokeswoman said: "[The revised timetable] includes a limited stop service, from 5 to 7 October to support the high volume of passengers expected to use the network during the Giant Spectacular event.

"The timetable change and limited stops mean that we can deliver a robust and reliable service, which is both frequent and strengthened, optimising all the trains that we have available to us in order to accommodate our regular passengers and the large numbers of people expected to visit the Giant Spectacular event as best as possible."

Rail services are set to be especially busy on the Sunday (October 7) as the city hosts the Liverpool v Man Utd game.

As well as almost 30 station closures, other changes include the West Kirby line only having three trains per hour, instead of the usual four, Southport trains will terminate at South Parkway.

All Wirral line passengers are to use Liverpool Central, while Northern line passengers are to use Moorfields.

To check which stations will be closed, check our maps, or go to https://www.merseyrail.org/seasonal/giants-spectacular.aspx

Incidentally, has there been any information on what changes, if any, other TOCs will make to services into Lime Street? I know Northern are on strike on the Saturday which will not help matters.

6Gman · 21 Sep 2018

notlob.divad said:
If one happens to be elderly or have particularly heavy luggage, may I suggest the local bus service which I find far and away the best and clearest to navigate of any city in the UK. Buses from Moorfields to the Queen Square Bus station (adjacent to Lime Street Station) are frequent and whilst it does lack somethign of the 'convenience' factor of remaining underground, it does (once awa from Moorfields itself, give you a grand tour of one of the most historic and grandest city centres the UK has to offer.

1. What services run between Moorfields and Queen Square?
2. Not sure I'd describe Queen Square as "adjacent" to Lime Street. Two or three busy roads to cross, and uphill.

(Now note someone has raised same points.)

Bevan Price · 21 Sep 2018

A display of total incompetence by Merseyrail management - dereliction of duty in my opinion. Find a problem and take the easy option - cancel services, st*ff the poor passengers who want to travel. And expect lots of extra people to be using cars to get into Liverpool, Birkenhead, etc., with road congestion even worse than normal....

I can understand the lack of replacement buses in Liverpool; expect many other bus services to terminate outside the city centre on some days. Parts of many roads will be closed for hours prior to "giant processions".

notlob.divad · 21 Sep 2018

6Gman said:
1. What services run between Moorfields and Queen Square?

12 and 13 definitely. Use them to get to and from my Grandad's house, but pretty much anything that stops at stop TA outside Exchange. Out of Moorfields turn right 100m on the left.

6Gman said:
2. Not sure I'd describe Queen Square as "adjacent" to Lime Street. Two or three busy roads to cross, and uphill.

one road crossing, an underpass and the same escalator you would have gone up from the underground.

notlob.divad · 21 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
But yes to me it's the withdrawal of service at stations far from Liverpool that they should not be allowed to get away with, at least unless RRBs are put on.

Fully agree.

nedchester · 22 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
But yes to me it's the withdrawal of service at stations far from Liverpool that they should not be allowed to get away with, at least unless RRBs are put on.

I had a brief look through their franchise agreement last night and for special events it states:

Sufficient capacity will be provided for normal passenger flows or for additional flows that can reasonably be anticipated due to special events or other exceptional circumstances.

Therefore, they are breaking the contract of their franchise agreement by closing stations and not offering alternatives. I suspect they know this but are trying to wriggle their way out of it.

Yes, cut out station stops to increase the service but offer alternatives (RRB) for closed stations.

jamesst · 22 Sep 2018

nedchester said:
I had a brief look through their franchise agreement last night and for special events it states:

Sufficient capacity will be provided for normal passenger flows or for additional flows that can reasonably be anticipated due to special events or other exceptional circumstances.

Therefore, they are breaking the contract of their franchise agreement by closing stations and not offering alternatives. I suspect they know this but are trying to wriggle their way out of it.

Yes, cut out station stops to increase the service but offer alternatives (RRB) for closed stations.

If you really think Merseyrail have made this decision alone I guarantee you're wrong.
Merseytravel will have full knowledge of the plans and will of agreed to it, it hasn't just been decided overnight.

nedchester · 22 Sep 2018

jamesst said:
If you really think Merseyrail have made this decision alone I guarantee you're wrong.
Merseytravel will have full knowledge of the plans and will of agreed to it, it hasn't just been decided overnight.

I understand that but it is still a breach of franchise and the travelling public have a right to alternative transport from the closed stations. If you have a ticket to/from the closed stations Merseyrail have an obligation to get you there whether by train, RRB or taxi.

Foxcover · 22 Sep 2018

This approach to customers isn’t really surprising if you look at the almost knee-jerk skipstop semi-fasts on the Wirral line whenever a service is more than 5 minutes down. Even (and often) on late night services when there isn’t any real impact to the timetable, the service is much less frequent and the intermediate stations are far less friendly places to be waiting around.

nedchester · 23 Sep 2018

http://www.merseytart.com/2018/09/a-giant-mess.html

Old Yard Dog · 23 Sep 2018

Intermodal said:
Seems very unlikely to me. I've been told several times by Merseyrail station staff that if I want to buy a through ticket I must go to a "network rail" station. Admittedly, I've purchased it without problems on a number of occasions also.

I've bought long-distance tickets, rovers (e.g. West Highland rover, Ffestiniog Round robin, ...), series of split tickets, and done seat reservations at Ellesmere Port and Hooton stations without any problems. However I have never tried to buy an advance ticket.

Annoyingly however, Merseyrail refuse to let you pick up tickets bought online at their stations meaning you have to somehow get to Chester or Lime Street in order to pick up a through ticket from stations on the Wirral.

Intermodal · 23 Sep 2018

Old Yard Dog said:
I've bought long-distance tickets, rovers (e.g. West Highland rover, Ffestiniog Round robin, ...), series of split tickets, and done seat reservations at Ellesmere Port and Hooton stations without any problems. However I have never tried to buy an advance ticket.

Definitely the exception rather than the norm with regards to this matter - however I've never had it happen at any other TOCs ticket office facilities, and I've had it happen several times on Merseyrail.

Bletchleyite · 23 Sep 2018

Old Yard Dog said:
Annoyingly however, Merseyrail refuse to let you pick up tickets bought online at their stations meaning you have to somehow get to Chester or Lime Street in order to pick up a through ticket from stations on the Wirral.

TBH I dont understand why doing ToD at all stations except those with no ticketing facilities is not a mandatory condition of being a member of ATOC/RDG.

Then if Merseyrail really do want to "get lost" and become their own thing Metrolink-style, ATOC/RDG can boot them right out (which the way they act they really do deserve), and they can enjoy the loss of ticketing commission on their own.

Bletchleyite · 23 Sep 2018

Intermodal said:
Definitely the exception rather than the norm with regards to this matter - however I've never had it happen at any other TOCs ticket office facilities, and I've had it happen several times on Merseyrail.

Quite a number of lazy Merseyrail ticket office staff are lining themselves up against the wall to become "collateral damage" to fund the provision of OBS on the new trains, I'd say.

Intermodal · 23 Sep 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Quite a number of lazy Merseyrail ticket office staff are lining themselves up against the wall to become "collateral damage" to fund the provision of OBS on the new trains, I'd say.

I used to be a manager in a retail outlet. I worked with this girl - not wanting to be harsh - who was one of the slowest people I've ever met. She was hired as a booking clerk at Merseyrail. If you knew this girl you would understand exactly how much this should say about their hiring process.

stuart100100 · 25 Sep 2018

Trains will now stop at Bache and Hightown!

https://www.merseyrail.org/news/merseyrail-update-on-rail-services-for-the-giants-event.aspx

25 September 2018
Merseyrail has announced two changes to the original rail service timetable issued for the Giants event.

After giving further consideration to feedback from our customers and stakeholders it is now our intention to reinstate trains stopping at Bache and Hightown stations which were two of the stations included in the original temporary station closure plan.

The reinstatement of these stations are for the special timetable on Friday 5, Saturday 6 and Sunday 7 October.

Managing Director at Merseyrail, Andy Heath said:

“The Giants is one of our busiest events and in terms of visitors travelling by Merseyrail it far surpasses most other events within the City of Liverpool. Normally 110,000 passenger journeys are made on Merseyrail per day. With the Giants event we have to plan for more than double those numbers of visitors. With a finite number of trains and carriages available it is a major challenge for us and I am pleased that with these two alterations to what was originally proposed I am confident we will do our best to ensure that as many people as possible get to the city to have a great day at the Giants.

We will have large numbers of staff deployed at key stations to assist with travel to the event. It’s never ideal to announce the temporary closure of any station but by doing this on the days of the event we are able to increase the number of carriages on lines of routes throughout the day and therefore carrying larger numbers of passengers.”

Passengers who may require assistance to travel are advised to contact Merseyrail’s Customer Relations team on 0151 555 1111 as far in advance as possible, due to the station and road closures that will be in place.

Passengers can find out more information by visiting Merseyrail.org/giants or picking up a leaflet from any of our staffed stations

Merseyrail and Giants event

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