Rail ranger refund due to disruption

DanNCL · 22 Sep 2018

Hi,

I'm on a Hadrians Wall day ranger today doing the LNER diverts. I bought my ticket at Newcastle ticket office this morning and boarded the 0640 to Carlisle, this being an Edinburgh bound service. Unfortunately my plans have gone totally out the window because the wires have come down at Lockerbie so all the diverts have been cancelled, with me being on the last one for ages to my knowledge (having been delayed by a couple of hours in Carlisle). Will I be able to get a refund on my ticket due to the cancellations? I'm returning home to Newcastle and then abandoning my journey.

Thanks in advance

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ainsworth74 · 22 Sep 2018

Refunds and delay compensation on rangers tends to be an utterly black art that varies from TOC to TOC (and possible even from person to person within a TOC!). I would argue that a refund probably is due as you've abandoned your journey (despite having used the full geographical validity you've not used all the time validity and had intended to make further journeys on your ticket) due to disruption. I would try going to the ticket office first to claim a refund and see what happens.

dutchflyer · 22 Sep 2018

As long as this lasts-there is an EU-rule, that clearly states, that in such cases-when just before the trip starts or during, it becomes clear that the destination can only be reached with more as 2 hrs delay or the purpose of the trip becomes superfluous (f.e. a fixed date at a doctor or so) the COMPLETE paid price has to be paid back and if a normal ticket is held, a free return to start must be offered.
Now it is up to you with this knowledge to try to convince the issuing company about this.
Yet another thing you are likely to loose after march '19, I guess.
NB-it is allowable to not pay back, but give vouchers, but with at least 1 yr time to use.

cactustwirly · 22 Sep 2018

DanNCL said:
Hi,

I'm on a Hadrians Wall day ranger today doing the LNER diverts. I bought my ticket at Newcastle ticket office this morning and boarded the 0640 to Carlisle, this being an Edinburgh bound service. Unfortunately my plans have gone totally out the window because the wires have come down at Lockerbie so all the diverts have been cancelled, with me being on the last one for ages to my knowledge (having been delayed by a couple of hours in Carlisle). Will I be able to get a refund on my ticket due to the cancellations? I'm returning home to Newcastle and then abandoning my journey.

Thanks in advance

Are the Northern services still running?
You could try at a ticket office, but I'm not sure you'll get a refund tbh.
However you could just claim delay repay with LNER?

yorkie · 22 Sep 2018

DanNCL said:
Hi,

I'm on a Hadrians Wall day ranger today doing the LNER diverts. I bought my ticket at Newcastle ticket office this morning and boarded the 0640 to Carlisle, this being an Edinburgh bound service. Unfortunately my plans have gone totally out the window because the wires have come down at Lockerbie so all the diverts have been cancelled, with me being on the last one for ages to my knowledge (having been delayed by a couple of hours in Carlisle). Will I be able to get a refund on my ticket due to the cancellations? I'm returning home to Newcastle and then abandoning my journey.

Thanks in advance

Where was your intended destination?

rg177 · 22 Sep 2018

Also worth bearing in mind Northern were on strike today so in one instance there was a 4hr gap in service.

robbeech · 23 Sep 2018

dutchflyer said:
As long as this lasts-there is an EU-rule, that clearly states, that in such cases-when just before the trip starts or during, it becomes clear that the destination can only be reached with more as 2 hrs delay or the purpose of the trip becomes superfluous (f.e. a fixed date at a doctor or so) the COMPLETE paid price has to be paid back and if a normal ticket is held, a free return to start must be offered.
Now it is up to you with this knowledge to try to convince the issuing company about this.
Yet another thing you are likely to loose after march '19, I guess.
NB-it is allowable to not pay back, but give vouchers, but with at least 1 yr time to use.

It would be handy if you could find this rule in a document somewhere for the op if you know where it is.

DanNCL · 25 Sep 2018

Thanks for all of the replies. I returned to the ticket office to claim a refund, where they refused and said that it had to be done as a delay repay claim instead. As I'm not sure how true this is I've held off from putting in a delay repay claim. Which option is the right one, if the right option is either of those above. Thanks in advance

ForTheLoveOf · 25 Sep 2018

DanNCL said:
Thanks for all of the replies. I returned to the ticket office to claim a refund, where they refused and said that it had to be done as a delay repay claim instead. As I'm not sure how true this is I've held off from putting in a delay repay claim. Which option is the right one, if the right option is either of those above. Thanks in advance

Delay Repay is compensation for when you are delayed on your journey. You were not delayed on the relevant part of your journey - you could not make it at all! Hence you abandoned your journey and returned to your origin. Clearly, a refund is due, under Condition 30.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT):

If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged. This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin.

There is no legal basis for LNER (I understand they manage the ticket office at Newcastle) to refuse a refund. Be aware, however, that you must make your claim within 28 days of when you had originally intended to travel. I would recommend doing so in writing - whether by letter or email - so that you have documentary evidence of having sent in your claim (if sending by post, obtain a proof of posting certificate at a Post Office; it costs nothing but proves postage).

If they are not forthcoming with the refund, come back here and we can advise further.

bussnapperwm · 26 Sep 2018

According to NRE, Northern are the only TOC that participates in the Hadrians Wall Country Line Day Ranger.

_toommm_ · 26 Sep 2018

Class 172 Fan said:
According to NRE, Northern are the only TOC that participates in the Hadrians Wall Country Line Day Ranger.

That's because LNER don't normally serve this route. It doesn't say explicitly it isn't valid on LNER as they only serve this route one or two weeks a year.

cactustwirly · 26 Sep 2018

ForTheLoveOf said:
Delay Repay is compensation for when you are delayed on your journey. You were not delayed on the relevant part of your journey - you could not make it at all! Hence you abandoned your journey and returned to your origin. Clearly, a refund is due, under Condition 30.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT):

There is no legal basis for LNER (I understand they manage the ticket office at Newcastle) to refuse a refund. Be aware, however, that you must make your claim within 28 days of when you had originally intended to travel. I would recommend doing so in writing - whether by letter or email - so that you have documentary evidence of having sent in your claim (if sending by post, obtain a proof of posting certificate at a Post Office; it costs nothing but proves postage).

If they are not forthcoming with the refund, come back here and we can advise further.

However there was still a Northern service, so I don't see how he can get a refund

yorkie · 26 Sep 2018

DanNCL said:
Thanks for all of the replies. I returned to the ticket office to claim a refund, where they refused and said that it had to be done as a delay repay claim instead. As I'm not sure how true this is I've held off from putting in a delay repay claim. Which option is the right one, if the right option is either of those above. Thanks in advance

Where was your intended destination?

ainsworth74 · 26 Sep 2018

cactustwirly said:
However there was still a Northern service, so I don't see how he can get a refund

I'm not clear of the relevance of Northern running a service? The condition is quite clear that what matters is "the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel" not that the journey must be impossible. The journey may well be possible but if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation is unavailable then you can apply for a refund.

cactustwirly · 26 Sep 2018

ainsworth74 said:
I'm not clear of the relevance of Northern running a service? The condition is quite clear that what matters is "the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel" not that the journey must be impossible. The journey may well be possible but if the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation is unavailable then you can apply for a refund.

His journey wasn't really that disrupted, he was only delayed by 15 minutes.
The OP already used his ticket, so the journey wasn't disrupted enough for him to abandon his journey.

ainsworth74 · 26 Sep 2018

cactustwirly said:
His journey wasn't really that disrupted, he was only delayed by 15 minutes.

That's not what the OP said:

DanNCL said:
with me being on the last one for ages to my knowledge (having been delayed by a couple of hours in Carlisle).

cactustwirly said:
The OP already used his ticket, so the journey wasn't disrupted enough for him to abandon his journey.

Could you point me to a source that states what level of disruption is sufficient to allow you to abandon your journey? I am not aware of one and as far as I'm aware it is usually left to the passenger, logically, to determine what level of disruption is sufficient to cause them to need to abandon their journey.

We also don't really know what the journey was yet as @yorkie has asked twice now we really could do with knowing more about the journey in question. If the plan was a straight out and back to Carlisle then delay compensation is probably due. If there was more to it than that then a refund may well be due.

yorkie · 26 Sep 2018

cactustwirly said:
His journey wasn't really that disrupted, he was only delayed by 15 minutes.
The OP already used his ticket, so the journey wasn't disrupted enough for him to abandon his journey.

We don't know what the journey was yet, so we don't know the answer to any of this.

Haywain · 26 Sep 2018

Reading between the lines, I think the OP was planning to use the ticket for multiple journeys between Newcastle and Carlisle using the diverted LNER services. The first journey reached Carlisle a few minutes late, and at that point the OP became aware that long distance services were disrupted. The OP mentions being delayed by a couple of hours in Carlisle but this appears (based on which trains actually ran) to have been voluntary, having chosen not to use a Northern service in between times but wait for an LNER service. It seems that the OP chose not to continue to use the ticket after returning to Newcastle due to the lack of LNER services.

In the circumstances, I don't see that there is a case for a refund or for delay repay to be claimed. Services continued to run between Newcastle and Carlisle, albeit only the Northern service, and the delay incurred on the round trip that was undertaken was voluntary. It doesn't, to me, seem reasonable to claim that a journey was abandoned when in fact what was being undertaken was multiple journeys. In my view the OP could write to LNER expressing disappointment at what happened and ask if they would consider a gesture of goodwill, but I can see no other entitlement resulting from what happened.

talltim · 26 Sep 2018

It's a case where the journey rather than the destination was the objective. Unfortunately rail ticketing rules aren't really written with compensation for this in mind.

yorkie · 26 Sep 2018

Haywain said:
Reading between the lines, I think the OP was planning to use the ticket for multiple journeys between Newcastle and Carlisle using the diverted LNER services. The first journey reached Carlisle a few minutes late, and at that point the OP became aware that long distance services were disrupted. The OP mentions being delayed by a couple of hours in Carlisle but this appears (based on which trains actually ran) to have been voluntary, having chosen not to use a Northern service in between times but wait for an LNER service. It seems that the OP chose not to continue to use the ticket after returning to Newcastle due to the lack of LNER services.

In the circumstances, I don't see that there is a case for a refund or for delay repay to be claimed. Services continued to run between Newcastle and Carlisle, albeit only the Northern service, and the delay incurred on the round trip that was undertaken was voluntary. It doesn't, to me, seem reasonable to claim that a journey was abandoned when in fact what was being undertaken was multiple journeys. In my view the OP could write to LNER expressing disappointment at what happened and ask if they would consider a gesture of goodwill, but I can see no other entitlement resulting from what happened.

Agreed, this seems likely.

If the customer had originally intended to make multiple journeys but only made one journey, then the best the customer could potentially hope for is to obtain the difference between the journey made (ie. the cost of a Day Return ticket) and the fare paid for a Day Ranger ticket. I'm not sure if they would be entitled to that or not; it may depend on various factors.

Whether it's worth the hassle of making that argument or not I'm not so sure.

Haywain · 26 Sep 2018

yorkie said:
If the customer had originally intended to make multiple journeys but only made one journey, then the best the customer could potentially hope for is to obtain the difference between the journey made (ie. the cost of a Day Return ticket) and the fare paid for a Day Ranger ticket. I'm not sure if they would be entitled to that or not; it may depend on various factors.

I agree that there could be a case for this but as the decision how to use the ticket lies with the customer any refund would be subject to an administration fee. As the difference in price between the ranger and the day return is only £5, this would result in no refund.

Haywain · 26 Sep 2018

talltim said:
It's a case where the journey rather than the destination was the objective.

I think it is very difficult to argue that Newcastle - Carlisle - Newcastle - Carlisle - Newcastle could be considered as one journey.

ainsworth74 · 26 Sep 2018

yorkie said:
If the customer had originally intended to make multiple journeys but only made one journey, then the best the customer could potentially hope for is to obtain the difference between the journey made (ie. the cost of a Day Return ticket) and the fare paid for a Day Ranger ticket. I'm not sure if they would be entitled to that or not; it may depend on various factors.

I had a similar situation to the OP back in VTEC days. I purchased a Valley Lines Explorer (or whatever it's called this week) but due to a fatality at Cardiff Central spent a decent chunk of the day parked on the outskirts of Cardiff on a GWR HST. This meant I only had time for one return journey on a branch before I had to leave.

I wrote to VTEC and suggested that they (as the retailer as the Ranger was bought at Darlington) refund the difference between the ticket I would have bought (a CDR) and the Ranger.

Their response was to send me a free return ticket for anywhere on VTECs network which I thought was a most equitable solution (no real cost to them as the trains were running anyway and I got a free trip)!

It certainly couldn't hurt to make a similar proposal to LNER.

Kite159 · 26 Sep 2018

ainsworth74 said:
I had a similar situation to the OP back in VTEC days. I purchased a Valley Lines Explorer (or whatever it's called this week) but due to a fatality at Cardiff Central spent a decent chunk of the day parked on the outskirts of Cardiff on a GWR HST. This meant I only had time for one return journey on a branch before I had to leave.

I wrote to VTEC and suggested that they (as the retailer as the Ranger was bought at Darlington) refund the difference between the ticket I would have bought (a CDR) and the Ranger.

Their response was to send me a free return ticket for anywhere on VTECs network which I thought was a most equitable solution (no real cost to them as the trains were running anyway and I got a free trip)!

It certainly couldn't hurt to make a similar proposal to LNER.

I would be surprised if the OP gets anything like a free return ticket from LNER, to be honest I would probably expect the first response to be "what is this rover/ we don't accept this rover/ we have passed your details to Northern who operate on this route" judging by previous threads with LNER customer services

ainsworth74 · 26 Sep 2018

Kite159 said:
I would be surprised if the OP gets anything like a free return ticket from LNER, to be honest I would probably expect the first response to be "what is this rover/ we don't accept this rover/ we have passed your details to Northern who operate on this route" judging by previous threads with LNER customer services

Yes it was rather a different time in the approach to customer service from the ICEC franchisee...

AlterEgo · 27 Sep 2018

Haywain said:
I agree that there could be a case for this but as the decision how to use the ticket lies with the customer any refund would be subject to an administration fee. As the difference in price between the ranger and the day return is only £5, this would result in no refund.

This case does pose something of a dilemma. Most rangers are leisure products and many users won't use them for point to point journeys. As the purpose of rangers is to facilitate what I'd call "idle or purposeless" travel that doesn't just involve going from one place to another at a set time, it would be good to see that properly acknowledged. Personally, if it were me looking at the case, I would offer a refund to the customer.

Starmill · 27 Sep 2018

cactustwirly said:
His journey wasn't really that disrupted, he was only delayed by 15 minutes.
The OP already used his ticket, so the journey wasn't disrupted enough for him to abandon his journey.

To be completely clear, this is wrong. If I buy a ticket but the train is shown as 15 minutes late and then I don't use that ticket, I'm entitled to a refund - even if it was an Advance ticket. There is no such thing as being 'disrupted enough' to abandon one's journey. This even applies in cases where seat reservations are not available. This also applies if you begin your journey but then must return to your origin as a result of the delay or cancellation.

Rail ranger refund due to disruption

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