Birmingham to Northampton

Kite159 said:

So basically you can double back even when the ticket validity expires when the train calls at Stechford on the way into New Street

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Technically yes, and the NRE site confirms it. However, I would only advise those who enjoy an argument (potentially as far as Court) actually try it, as it is clearly not intended to be valid.

JB_B said:

I think Birmingham Group passes the fares check as an origin RP/G.

Evaluating origin routeing point BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) and destination routeing point NORTHAMPTON (NMP) for journey from STECHFORD (SCF) to NORTHAMPTON (NMP) matching route 00000 .
Applying fare-check to org routeing point member BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET (BHM)
The CDS fare from SCF to NMP (£6.90) is equal to the CDS fare from BHM to NMP (£6.90) Therefore BHM / NMP is accepted (quality: good).
Routeing points BIRMINGHAM GROUP (G02) to NORTHAMPTON (NMP) pass fare-check.

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Forgive my ignorance, but how does the fares check work where no CDS fare is quoted and in any event, is the data used in that calculation up to date?

BRFares has no CDS quoted from SCF to NMP. The Anytime single is £14.20.

The CDS from BHM to NMP is £15.90. Anytime single, £16.50.

Silverdale said:

Forgive my ignorance, but how does the fares check work where no CDS fare is quoted and in any event, is the data used in that calculation up to date?

BRFares has no CDS quoted from SCF to NMP. The Anytime single is £14.20.

The CDS from BHM to NMP is £15.90. Anytime single, £16.50.

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To stop routes changing when fares do, the fares calculations are based on the edition of the NFM at privatisation, not the current one.

Thanks, Bletchley.

So the 'anomaly' is actually that 25 years ago the single fares were the same, thus making the route valid via Birmingham. Consequently, any lower fares from Stechford, now require a negative easement (not via Birmingham).

Kite159 said:

So basically you can double back even when the ticket validity expires when the train calls at Stechford on the way into New Street

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It doesn't expire. Otherwise you couldn't double back! The ticket validity expires when you reach Stechford having doubled back via New Street.

Kite159 said:

Good luck explaining that to the gateline staff at New Street when the ticket fails to operate the barriers

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It may well fail to operate the barriers. That is in no way a contractual determination that the ticket is not valid to exit.

Kite159 said:

and they query why you have overtravelled.

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You haven't overtravelled; you are using the ticket as per its validity. If they see it as overtravelling because they don't know of the Routeing Point rule then they are not qualified to be there at the barriers, checking rejected tickets.

Kite159 said:

Although now that bug has come out, no doubt either the fare will increase to be the same as the fare to New Street or a negative easement put into place to prevent customers from doubling back via New Street

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It is a regulated fare (or possibly the SDR), so I doubt it can be increased higher than the Birmingham one unless the Birmingham one is not increased. A negative easement would not be lawful per se, as it has the effect of introducing a "not via Birmingham" route restriction, and route codes may only be changed by permission of the SoS.

Bletchleyite said:

Technically yes, and the NRE site confirms it. However, I would only advise those who enjoy an argument (potentially as far as Court) actually try it, as it is clearly not intended to be valid.

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I am inclined to try it out myself. The TOCs have no business reducing passengers' rights because they want to increase certain regulated fares more than others.

ForTheLoveOf said:

I am inclined to try it out myself. The TOCs have no business reducing passengers' rights because they want to increase certain regulated fares more than others.

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It’s really a loophole. There is no genuine reason to do the double back.

ForTheLoveOf said:

It doesn't expire. Otherwise you couldn't double back! The ticket validity expires when you reach Stechford having doubled back via New Street.


It may well fail to operate the barriers. That is in no way a contractual determination that the ticket is not valid to exit.


You haven't overtravelled; you are using the ticket as per its validity. If they see it as overtravelling because they don't know of the Routeing Point rule then they are not qualified to be there at the barriers, checking rejected tickets.


It is a regulated fare (or possibly the SDR), so I doubt it can be increased higher than the Birmingham one unless the Birmingham one is not increased. A negative easement would not be lawful per se, as it has the effect of introducing a "not via Birmingham" route restriction, and route codes may only be changed by permission of the SoS.

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Sorry but a ticket from Northampton to Stechford would expire as soon as the train calls at Stechford. It will have no further validity after calling at Stechford, even if you have a dodgy iternary from NRE showing it is somehow meant to be valid by over travelling and doubling back via New Street, probably something left in the guide from the time when Stechford was served by local trains only (I.e. Adderley Park).

I dare you to try it, and challenge a RPI. They will take one look at the Northampton - Stechford ticket, knowing that Stechford is before New Street and decide you have overtravelled, and do you fancy your day in court in front of a judge who will ask "if your journey was from Northampton to Stechford, why didn't you alight from the train when it stopped at Stechford?"

It is like being able to double back from Milton Keynes on a London - Bletchley ticket when the train you use from Euston to Milton Keynes calls at Bletchley. Or on a Salisbury - Romsey ticket deciding to remain on board a Salisbury - Romsey figure of 6 service after it calls at Romsey and trying to exit the station at Southampton with someone claiming it has further validity via Chandlers Ford

Bletchleyite said:

It’s really a loophole. There is no genuine reason to do the double back.

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I'm curious enough to ask; at the time at which the NFM quoted the single fare from Stechford to be the same price as the one from New St, would SCF-NMP have been valid via New St? In other words, is the routing a legacy of the nationalized railway, or is the fact it currently appears to be a valid routing purely a consequence of the rules which were drawn-up for the privatized railway?

Kite159 said:

It is like being able to double back from Milton Keynes on a London - Bletchley ticket when the train you use from Euston to Milton Keynes calls at Bletchley

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You can't do that even if the train doesn't call at Bletchley; it's not a Permitted Route, and nor should this be either on this ticket.

I can see a justification for a "route Birmingham" ticket to be made available at the same price as the ticket from Birmingham, though, at least to Rugby, MKC, Watford Jn and London, just as I think there could do with being "route Milton Keynes Central" tickets from Bletchley to Watford and London[1] at the same price as the ticket from MKC. But I don't see why the cheaper ticket should in either of these cases be valid via the more expensive destination; allowing that is *asking* for anomalies.

[1] It only makes any sense if you change to a VT at MKC, and those are the only two reachable that way.

Silverdale said:

I'm curious enough to ask; at the time at which the NFM quoted the single fare from Stechford to be the same price as the one from New St, would SCF-NMP have been valid via New St? In other words, is the routing a legacy of the nationalized railway, or is the fact it currently appears to be a valid routing purely a consequence of the rules which were drawn-up for the privatized railway?

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When the first edition of the routeing guide came out (Sep 1996) Northampton wasn't a routeing point in it's own right and Rugby would have been the relevant destination routeing point. So a different set of fares would have been used for the check but, AFAICT, Birmingham Group/Rugby would still have been appropriate RPs for Stechford-Northampton any permitted.

Class 403 said:

No idea why the Off Peak Return and the Anytime Day Return though costs the same as you think the latter would be more pricy...

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Take a look at Birmingham to Machynlleth if you think that! The Off Peak Return costs almost double the Anytime Day Return.

This SVR works out as a shade under 20p a mile, which is not bad for a medium distance SVR. Over on the Marches they can be in the mid 20's.

Might have been easier to just accept that rather than going off looking to beat it, being sub 20p per mile partly explains why you can't.

Bletchleyite said:

It’s really a loophole. There is no genuine reason to do the double back.

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There may be no genuine reason for a passenger to Stechford to double back at New Street - but I strongly object to customers having their contractual rights infringed, potentially in a way that itself constitutes a criminal offence. The fare differential is clearly a product of the privatised railway; it is intolerable for the privatised railway to reduce passengers' rights which are supposed to be historically protected as a condition of privatisation, merely because they want to rip off certain customers more than others!

Kite159 said:

Sorry but a ticket from Northampton to Stechford would expire as soon as the train calls at Stechford. It will have no further validity after calling at Stechford

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That may be the way it is intended and priced, but fares regulation prevents it from being that way! It is unquestionably valid via Birmingham and anyone who denies that clearly doesn't understand the application of the Routeing Guide in this situation.

Kite159 said:

even if you have a dodgy iternary from NRE showing it is somehow meant to be valid by over travelling and doubling back via New Street

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The Routeing Guide and the NRCoT encourage passengers to check an intended route on NRE if they are unsure whether it is a permitted route. If a through ticket is suggested in conjunction with an itinerary on NRE then it is deemed a permitted route. There are a variety of laws and rights which dictate that what NRE says is effectively and contractually binding. There can be no such thing as a "dodgy" route - if NRE offers it in conjunction with one ticket then it is valid, end of!

Kite159 said:

I dare you to try it, and challenge a RPI.

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It is not difficult for me to take up your dare; Stechford is only a few changes away for me. I am very much inclined to try it out, though the chances of encountering an RPI are sadly miniscule (throughout 7 years of commuting on WMT and other TOCs I have never encountered an RPI onboard their trains, and only ever 3 or 4 times at stations).

Kite159 said:

They will take one look at the Northampton - Stechford ticket, knowing that Stechford is before New Street and decide you have overtravelled

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They can "decide" what they like, but they would be very wrong to come to that conclusion. If they are so badly trained that they can't apply the Routeing Guide properly then they should not be in their job.

Kite159 said:

do you fancy your day in court in front of a judge

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It would never even get that far; there isn't a chance in hell I would give my details to any RPI who claimed that this was an invalid route and that I had overtravelled! I would have no qualms explaining to them exactly why they were wrong.

Kite159 said:

who will ask "if your journey was from Northampton to Stechford, why didn't you alight from the train when it stopped at Stechford?"

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Your journey does not have to be the same as what your tickets are to and from; virtually all walk-up tickets permit starting late and/or finishing short. I would be quite honest in explaining my journey was to/from New Street. There would be no reason to get off at Stechford if my journey is to New Street. If they questioned the route via Birmingham I am sure it would be possible to arrange for relevant expert witnesses from this forum to verify that the route is valid, if my own explanation doesn't suffice!

Kite159 said:

It is like being able to double back from Milton Keynes on a London - Bletchley ticket when the train you use from Euston to Milton Keynes calls at Bletchley

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You can't, because there is no doubling back easement and Bletchley is its own Routeing Point and the only mapped route to London is direct, not via Milton Keynes.

Kite159 said:

Or on a Salisbury - Romsey ticket deciding to remain on board a Salisbury - Romsey figure of 6 service after it calls at Romsey and trying to exit the station at Southampton with someone claiming it has further validity via Chandlers Ford

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That is quite arguably permitted if you are taking through trains between Salisbury and Romsey at all times (there have previous been threads about whether you can break your journey on a route which is permitted only by virtue of being on a through train, the conclusion being that the NRCoT and Routeing Guide are ambiguous on this point and thus Section 69(1) of the Consumer Rights Act 2015 means it is permitted). Obviously the requirement of using Salisbury-Romsey through trains at all times limits your choice of services quite substantially.

So you will refuse to give your details if asked for by a member of the BTP?

Sorry but the validity of ticket from Northampton to Stechford will cease when it calls at Stechford on the inbound journey. So once more good luck trying to explain that in a court of law when you get issued a penalty fare for travelling without a valid ticket when you try and exit the barriers at New Street.

As I see it, the contract is to get you to your destination on any valid route, and so once you have arrived at your destination that's job done for them, so you have no further rights, regardless of routing now, surely?

A Challenge said:

As I see it, the contract is to get you to your destination on any valid route, and so once you have arrived at your destination that's job done for them, so you have no further rights, regardless of routing now, surely?

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I’ve always been more than happy to take advantage of loopholes, but remaining on the train after it’s called at the destination on the ticket in order to make an unnecessary double back is something I wouldn’t do.

It really is asking for trouble.

Kite159 said:

So you will refuse to give your details if asked for by a member of the BTP?

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If they have no grounds to require them, e.g. in the case of me having a valid ticket and them having no grounds for requiring my details, yes. I am more than prepared to consider action for unlawful arrest if that results.

Kite159 said:

Sorry but the validity of ticket from Northampton to Stechford will cease when it calls at Stechford on the inbound journey

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It does not and I have explained why above. If, or any member of rail staff, are unwilling to accept the facts as they are then I don't see there's any further discussion to be had.

Kite159 said:

So once more good luck trying to explain that in a court of law when you get issued a penalty fare for travelling without a valid ticket when you try and exit the barriers at New Street.

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VTWC staff man the barriers at New Street. VTWC do not have a Penalty Fares Scheme in operation. And in any case, being issued with a Penalty Fare does not cause you to be prosecuted - the train company taking you to Court would. And they would be manifestly incorrect in making any such prosecution in these circumstances - in fact it may even qualify as far as a malicious prosecution if they are made aware they have no case before they start the prosecution (or before it reaches the hearing).

As I have said, if the person deciding whether or not it is a valid ticket is unwilling to look at the key document which defines the contractual validity - the NRCoT and Routeing Guide - then they are simply not fit to be in their job.

A Challenge said:

As I see it, the contract is to get you to your destination on any valid route, and so once you have arrived at your destination that's job done for them, so you have no further rights, regardless of routing now, surely?

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The contract gives you certain rights, namely to travel along any permitted route and to break your journey (inc. start late and/or stop short) along any such permitted route. Since NMP-BHM-SCF is a permitted route, you can make just part of the journey if you like. The ticket only expires only upon "the effluxion of time" (i.e. the last second of the last minute of validity has passed), or upon you exhausting all the travel rights you are granted; passing through your "destination" is of little relevance if you still have remaining contractual validity!

I don't disagree that it's a permitted route from Northampton to Stechford to call at Stechford twice, doubling back from Birmingham. But the way I see it, just because a certain permitted route exists between the origin and destination on a ticket doesn't necessarily make the ticket valid to make a journey via that route. For example, the ticket could be routed "NOT VIA BIRMINGHAM". I just offer this as an example where something that is separate from the National Routeing Guide (i.e. the fare route printed on the ticket) has the effect of preventing travel via the full range of permitted routes between the origin and destination shown on the ticket.

I have a feeling that the fact that your contract for transport to your destination has been fulfilled once you arrive there is so obvious and clear, that it doesn't really need to be written down anywhere.

Indigo2 said:

I have a feeling that the fact that your contract for transport to your destination has been fulfilled once you arrive there is so obvious and clear, that it doesn't really need to be written down anywhere.

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I would agree. I can see no reason whatsoever why this should be valid (as distinct from whether it is on a technicality or not) and in this case would support the rail industry correcting the anomaly by prohibiting it. There is simply nothing to be gained by a genuine passenger by going via Birmingham for that journey, and in no case other than accessibility issues[1] is there anything to be gained by making a journey that calls at a given station twice where that station is the origin or destination. All that is happening is that a few people in the know are gaining a discounted journey.

[1] In which case to avoid a legal case the Routeing Guide etc would not be considered.

Bletchleyite said:

I would agree. I can see no reason whatsoever why this should be valid (as distinct from whether it is or not) and in this case would support the rail industry correcting the anomaly by prohibiting it.

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It has historically been permitted so there is no reason why the right should finish just because the TOCs like ripping Birmingham customers off more.

Indigo2 said:

I have a feeling that the fact that your contract for transport to your destination has been fulfilled once you arrive there is so obvious and clear, that it doesn't really need to be written down anywhere.

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There is clearly a difference in how people approach the validity of a ticket. Some people see it that you have a contract to get from A to B. And in that context I can see why people think the ticket expires once you reach B. But I see it differently. You have the right to travel along any permitted route between A and B, starting late, stopping short and breaking your journey as you wish. And in that context, the fact that you call at B has no special significance, if you still have remaining contractual rights.

ForTheLoveOf said:

It has historically been permitted so there is no reason why the right should finish just because the TOCs like ripping Birmingham customers off more.

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It is utterly pointless to call at a station, continue on then return to the same station to alight.

There is no reason why this should be valid anywhere. When you are on a train that calls at your destination, that should be the end of the validity - leave the train.

Bletchleyite said:

It is utterly pointless to call at a station, continue on then return to the same station to alight.

There is no reason why this should be valid anywhere. When you are on a train that calls at your destination, that should be the end of the validity - leave the train.

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It may make no sense to a normal passenger heading to the destination printed on their ticket. But other people - such as people who use tickets with "advantageous" validity - will be using rights other than that to travel to the destination!

ForTheLoveOf said:

It may make no sense to a normal passenger heading to the destination printed on their ticket. But other people - such as people who use tickets with "advantageous" validity - will be using rights other than that to travel to the destination!

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I don't agree. Your contract is to get you to your destination as on the ticket. If you have got to the destination, then the contract has been fulfilled. The fact that the routeing guide enables you to go through your destination on a non-stop train in order to get a stopping train back to it, and thus arrive earlier than you might otherwise, doesn't give you the right to travel through your destination on a train that stops there and from which you could reasonably alight.

Bletchleyite said:

It is utterly pointless to call at a station, continue on then return to the same station to alight.

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Not pointless at all. I can recall many instances where my travel followed that pattern. (e.g from Northampton to Birmingham to meet a friend for lunch, then from Birmingham to Stechford to visit my granny)

The pattern means I have usually had to purchase 2 single tickets to get the job done (NMP-BHM & BHM-SCF). The fact that the NMP-SCF ticket exists and is accidentally valid via BHM doesn't make the journey itself pointless.

alistairlees said:

Your contract is to get you to your destination as on the ticket.

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That is one of your contractual rights. But why should the contract suddenly expire when there are unused contractual rights, because you have passed through an arbitrary location?

I am sorry but the argument just doesn't make sense to me. A ticket expires when the date of validity passes, or when its validity in terms of routes is used up. Whichever happens first. A NMP-SCF is unquestionably valid for a double back via Birmingham until such time as the routeing of the ticket and/or the Routeing Guide is changed.

JB_B said:

A SVR from Stechford to Northampton is valid via Birmingham - that's £17.70

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=SCF&dest=NMP&tkt=SVR

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This is a good idea for an experienced rail passenger however I think we need to be careful here and warn the customer that they should not get a train that calls at Stechford, for obvious reasons.

I do not know how confident the OP's neighbour will be using this ticket.

It's questionable to call there on the outward, but unquestionably invalid on the return as the ticket expires once the customer calls at the destination!

Bletchleyite said:

Er, hang on a minute...that's a double back and therefore NOT valid - or is there an easement?

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Not this again! There is no such rule! You are confusing the instruction regarding no doubling back on the maps. You are very welcome to join us at a fares workshop if you want to learn more.

Bletchleyite said:

Doesn't the fares rule take Birmingham out as a valid RP, then?

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What "fares rule"? Please don't post things like this if you are unsure what the rules are.

Bletchleyite said:

NRE will give you an itinerary with that fare on which the train does call at Stechford, so you call there twice, ridiculously.

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That's a failing in Silverrail's implementation. Other providers may or may not agree with that interpretation.

My own belief is that journey planners should definitely not do this on the return journey, and it is at best questionable on the outward. However it is not a routeing issue, but a contractual one. This makes it very difficult for journey planners.

yorkie said:

as the ticket expires once the customer calls at the destination!

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But that is only the result of thinking of the ticket as a contract strictly in terms of getting from A to B. That is almost incompatible with being permitted to break your journey (and start late/stop short). I would agree that an Advance ticket falls into this category, and that if there were an Advance ticket from NMP-SCF it would be ridiculous to use that to Birmingham as you are actively declaring that you are going to SCF (or at least continuing a journey from there) because break of journey is banner.

But a flexible ticket is very different - in my view it grants you a multitude of rights, namely to travel on as much or as little of any one permitted route as you like.

ForTheLoveOf said:

But that is only the result of thinking of the ticket as a contract strictly in terms of getting from A to B. That is almost incompatible with being permitted to break your journey (and start late/stop short). I would agree that an Advance ticket falls into this category, and that if there were an Advance ticket from NMP-SCF it would be ridiculous to use that to Birmingham as you are actively declaring that you are going to SCF (or at least continuing a journey from there) because break of journey is banner.

But a flexible ticket is very different - in my view it grants you a multitude of rights, namely to travel on as much or as little of any one permitted route as you like.

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Yes, you can travel via Birmingham and you have the right to do that, but only for routeing purposes. Once your train actually calls at Stechford, the ticket is almost certainly going to be considered to expire at that point in any reasonable interpretation.

Passing through non-stop is fine. But it makes no sense to arrive at your final ticketed destination, for the doors to be unlocked, and yet to choose to be overcarried to a destination beyond that on your ticket. Good luck arguing that it's fine to do that in court!!