Trivia:Most expensive subsidy per passenger

thenorthern · 22 Sep 2018

Earlier today I was reading that in the Republic of Ireland the Limerick to Ballybrophy line is subsidised at the rate of €761.60 per passenger which is about £685. Remember that is per passenger not per train or per station but for every passenger journey made on every train.

Irish Rail says four routes could be axed, as drivers look for pay increase

IRISH RAIL IS warning that some rail services may have to be cut if a funding shortfall of what it says is €100 million per year is not addressed.

For example, the Limerick to Ballybrophy rail route requires a subvention of €761.60 per passenger, compared to 70c per passenger for the Dart.

http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-rail-routes-3570004-Aug2017/

It made me think though what is the most subsidised line/service/station per passenger in the United Kingdom?

My guess would be a rural branch line with a low number of services such as the West Highland Line or Far North Line although even the subsidies for those lines will be much less than some of the subsidies in the Republic of Ireland.

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Megafuss · 22 Sep 2018

According to the ORR Rail Statistics for 2016/17, ATW, Northern and ScotRail receive the highest subsidy per passenger kilometer..no breakdown of route.

Taunton · 22 Sep 2018

Blaenau Ffestiniog. Long line, few passengers, even in summer, and regular big expenditure on flood repairs.

thenorthern · 23 Sep 2018

I think I read that the Isle of Wight Line is subsidised at £5 per passenger. Back in 2010 Centro cut funding for half hourly services from Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley services which were costing £7 per passenger.

Parallel · 23 Sep 2018

I’d imagine the Heart of Wales is up there due to the length and the relatively few services that operate. Also possibly the Looe Valley due to the line flooding at least once a year.

alistairlees · 23 Sep 2018

Megafuss said:
According to the ORR Rail Statistics for 2016/17, ATW, Northern and ScotRail receive the highest subsidy per passenger kilometer..no breakdown of route.

The link to that is here: http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/25757/rail-finance-statistical-release-2016-17.pdf

Gathursty · 23 Sep 2018

Am I allowed to say Breich station?

mrcheek · 23 Sep 2018

Gathursty said:
Am I allowed to say Breich station?

I'm not sure "infinity" is allowed as an answer......

Journeyman · 25 Sep 2018

Gathursty said:
Am I allowed to say Breich station?

You absolutely are. This has to be one of the most ridiculous wastes of taxpayers' money I've ever seen, all because Humza Yusaf was too cowardly to close a station that literally no-one uses. The rebuild represents a subsidy of £52,000 to each of last years' 48 users (who are probably all the same person anyway).

haggishunter · 25 Sep 2018

Journeyman said:
You absolutely are. This has to be one of the most ridiculous wastes of taxpayers' money I've ever seen, all because Humza Yusaf was too cowardly to close a station that literally no-one uses. The rebuild represents a subsidy of £52,000 to each of last years' 48 users (who are probably all the same person anyway).

Ignoring whether there is a case for the station based on the local development proposals, the political reality is the SG could not have shut this station. Had the minister made the closure decision, there would have been a vote in Parliament where the Greens in principle, but the unionist parties for political opportunism would have defeated the government on the closure.

Journeyman · 25 Sep 2018

haggishunter said:
Ignoring whether there is a case for the station based on the local development proposals, the political reality is the SG could not have shut this station. Had the minister made the closure decision, there would have been a vote in Parliament where the Greens in principle, but the unionist parties for political opportunism would have defeated the government on the closure.

Oh, and nationalists have never done anything for opportunistic reasons? *eyeroll*

Iskra · 25 Sep 2018

Parallel said:
I’d imagine the Heart of Wales is up there due to the length and the relatively few services that operate. Also possibly the Looe Valley due to the line flooding at least once a year.

Paradoxically, having relatively few services could help reduce passenger subsidy on quiet lines.

Ie. 100 passengers travel per day on one line which sees 5tpd, could have a lower subsidy than a line with 110 passengers per day across 10 services.

So what we're looking for is quiet lines with a reasonable service level.

So, I'd nominate:

- Far North Line- very long and very sparsely populated, without a major tourist draw.
- Settle-Carlisle. Busier than it once was but it must cost a fortune to maintain with it being double tracked and having a lot of expensive structures and tunnels on route.

Esker-pades · 25 Sep 2018

Iskra said:
Paradoxically, having relatively few services could help reduce passenger subsidy on quiet lines.

Ie. 100 passengers travel per day on one line which sees 5tpd, could have a lower subsidy than a line with 110 passengers per day across 10 services.

So what we're looking for is quiet lines with a reasonable service level.

So, I'd nominate:

- Far North Line- very long and very sparsely populated, without a major tourist draw.
- Settle-Carlisle. Busier than it once was but it must cost a fortune to maintain with it being double tracked and having a lot of expensive structures and tunnels on route.

Your mention of the Far North Line leads me to direct you to this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/economic-case-for-the-far-north-line.167315/ .

LNW-GW Joint · 25 Sep 2018

thenorthern said:
Back in 2010 Centro cut funding for half hourly services from Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley services which were costing £7 per passenger.

And yet the service has just gone back to half hourly and they are just completing electrification.
Somebody must think the line has a future.

Iskra said:
- Settle-Carlisle. Busier than it once was but it must cost a fortune to maintain with it being double tracked and having a lot of expensive structures and tunnels on route.

Especially now that freight traffic has fallen off a cliff (again).
The route upgrades specially for Anglo-Scottish coal traffic (also the redoubling of the G&SW line) are now sitting idle.

I'm not sure the RETB-signalled routes are as much basket cases now as those still with multiple manual signal boxes.
And yet NR seems in retreat from its ROC migration programme which would reduce operating costs.
Similarly with DOO. Sorry to bring it up, but it's one way to reduce costs.

ChiefPlanner · 25 Sep 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
And yet the service has just gone back to half hourly and they are just completing electrification.
Somebody must think the line has a future.

Especially now that freight traffic has fallen off a cliff (again).
The route upgrades specially for Anglo-Scottish coal traffic (also the redoubling of the G&SW line) are now sitting idle.

I'm not sure the RETB-signalled routes are as much basket cases now as those still with multiple manual signal boxes.
And yet NR seems in retreat from its ROC migration programme which would reduce operating costs.
Similarly with DOO. Sorry to bring it up, but it's one way to reduce costs.

Good point - the earlier Control Periods had "must fix" issues - long distance coal flows GSW - S+C were key then , fixed largely but de-carbonisation has killed that , (ergo money sunk and lost) - the later ones were aligned to longer distance deep sea traffics (Ipswich and Southampton tunnels etc) , which apart from being strategic and remain essential schemes and long term - especially gauge clearance works.

Now compare the Central Wales line - deeply rural , low volumes of both trains and passengers - but whilst the key viaduct structures have had some work (Cynghordy and Knucklas) , ditto the tunnels - but the line largely retains bullhead track , lovingly maintained more or less by the generation that were there before 1996 , and the quota of replacement track miles has not happened (money probably spent elsewhere) - a quick and dirty study did a decade ago showed that per track mile , it was incredibly good value for money. More than you can say for the Conway Valley Line. For differing reasons of course.

Barnsley -Huddersfield (a wonderful line) - might make a good study - as an hourly service (reasonably used) - has about everything against in terrain terms - viaducts / tunnels galore - so the real unit costs are sunk in the greater sink of Network Rail. Much derided BR (to go back to one of my favourite themes) - had a pretty good idea on route costs on similar lines ......I suspect they are pretty high in the latter case.

alangla · 25 Sep 2018

Gathursty said:
Am I allowed to say Breich station?

This might not be as loopy as it looks. Armadale has grown from nothing & in the middle of nowhere to being surrounded by houses & a supermarket. I believe there's a fair bit of new housing planned near Briech plus the sparks effect from the new wires.

thenorthern · 25 Sep 2018

Thinking about it its much harder to work out real costs of services in Great Britain than in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland as there is a large number of operators and very few services run entirely on lines that are not used by any other service. For example the Looe Valley Line services are separated from the rest of the network so its possible to work out how much it costs to maintain the track for the services but the Conway Valley Line uses the Llandudno Branch for part of its journey so it's harder to work out costs.

Thebaz · 26 Sep 2018

thenorthern said:
Earlier today I was reading that in the Republic of Ireland the Limerick to Ballybrophy line is subsidised at the rate of €761.60 per passenger which is about £685. Remember that is per passenger not per train or per station but for every passenger journey made on every train.

It made me think though what is the most subsidised line/service/station per passenger in the United Kingdom?

My guess would be a rural branch line with a low number of services such as the West Highland Line or Far North Line although even the subsidies for those lines will be much less than some of the subsidies in the Republic of Ireland.

Interesting reading - one of the lines mentioned, Ennis - Anthenry only reopened about 5 years ago to improve journey times between Limerick and Galway. Perhaps passenger numbers have not been as expected, but I really can't see the why you would close the only route between the two major towns on the west coast again.

bussnapperwm · 26 Sep 2018

thenorthern said:
Back in 2010 Centro cut funding for half hourly services from Birmingham New Street to Rugeley Trent Valley services which were costing £7 per passenger.

Which makes me laugh as last financial year, one bus route was apparently subsidised by them at nearly £6/passenger!

And us mugs who pay council tax to the WM local authority's have to subsidise it

craigybagel · 27 Sep 2018

ChiefPlanner said:
Now compare the Central Wales line - deeply rural , low volumes of both trains and passengers - but whilst the key viaduct structures have had some work (Cynghordy and Knucklas) , ditto the tunnels - but the line largely retains bullhead track , lovingly maintained more or less by the generation that were there before 1996 , and the quota of replacement track miles has not happened (money probably spent elsewhere) - a quick and dirty study did a decade ago showed that per track mile , it was incredibly good value for money. More than you can say for the Conway Valley Line. For differing reasons of course.
.

I do wonder though if the fact that many (in fact, I'd go as far as suggesting as much as half) of the passengers traveling in Winter aren't contributing to the costs of the line - they are traveling for free using their Welsh bus passes - is properly accounted for when it comes to subsidies on this particular route.

thenorthern said:
Earlier today I was reading that in the Republic of Ireland the Limerick to Ballybrophy line is subsidised at the rate of €761.60 per passenger which is about £685. Remember that is per passenger not per train or per station but for every passenger journey made on every train.

It made me think though what is the most subsidised line/service/station per passenger in the United Kingdom?

My guess would be a rural branch line with a low number of services such as the West Highland Line or Far North Line although even the subsidies for those lines will be much less than some of the subsidies in the Republic of Ireland.

I would hope that whichever line in the UK is the most heavily subsidised, that the figures for that line are nowhere near as bad as on the line through Nenagh. We're talking about a line with only two trains a day on the whole length (plus an extra short working in one direction only) that requires 2 signal boxes to stay open, that AIUI still has some staffed stations - and whilst Nenagh and Roscrea are large towns in their own right, the railway is up against an hourly bus service that's much quicker (line speed on the branch is only 40mph!).

Thebaz said:
Interesting reading - one of the lines mentioned, Ennis - Anthenry only reopened about 5 years ago to improve journey times between Limerick and Galway. Perhaps passenger numbers have not been as expected, but I really can't see the why you would close the only route between the two major towns on the west coast again.

Passengers numbers were always expected to be low - the line was opened for political not economic reasons. As with the Nenagh branch, the competing bus service is quicker, more frequent and cheaper. But investing in the West away from Dublin (which was crying out for investment in its public transport network) looked better.

ChiefPlanner · 27 Sep 2018

craigybagel said:
I do wonder though if the fact that many (in fact, I'd go as far as suggesting as much as half) of the passengers traveling in Winter aren't contributing to the costs of the line - they are traveling for free using their Welsh bus passes - is properly accounted for when it comes to subsidies on this particular route.

Going back a good while - the Central Wales had a rough cost base of £2.5 Million and then a revenue of around £500,000 (you will guess of course I have had some dealings with this in a precious life) , and basically with that level of cost , and the somewhat challenging , dare I say historical service pattern , the more use you can make of it to recover sunk costs , the better. The doubling of the Sunday service - from 1 to 2 tph certainly helped a tad , and there are other aspirations if not commitments for a 20%+ service uplift with 170's in the new franchise. (* Any ideas how the new service pattern with the short workings on the south end performing) ?)

The free travel to the "aged" basically - like the London Freedom pass - or similar in Scotland -assists the social purpose of the line .....

Anyway , i do wonder about the Ayr- Stranraer line - shut at the moment , and not a lot in between and no ferry service to serve anymore. Not a scrap of freight for many a year either , and no nuclear power stations around.

craigybagel · 27 Sep 2018

ChiefPlanner said:
Going back a good while - the Central Wales had a rough cost base of £2.5 Million and then a revenue of around £500,000 (you will guess of course I have had some dealings with this in a precious life) , and basically with that level of cost , and the somewhat challenging , dare I say historical service pattern , the more use you can make of it to recover sunk costs , the better. The doubling of the Sunday service - from 1 to 2 tph certainly helped a tad , and there are other aspirations if not commitments for a 20%+ service uplift with 170's in the new franchise. (* Any ideas how the new service pattern with the short workings on the south end performing) ?)

The free travel to the "aged" basically - like the London Freedom pass - or similar in Scotland -assists the social purpose of the line .....

Thanks for that, those are some interesting figures.

I can't speak for the South end, but the timetable change with the extra short at the North end actually resulted in fewer passengers traveling - presumably owing to the new times being less useful then the olf timetable, especially for school/college traffic.

That said, I was slightly disappointed that the new franchise is only seeing 1 extra train a day - the potential is definitely there to see extra traffic, if only a timetable can be devised to suit them.

Anyway , i do wonder about the Ayr- Stranraer line - shut at the moment , and not a lot in between and no ferry service to serve anymore. Not a scrap of freight for many a year either , and no nuclear power stations around.

Now that's a very good suggestion. It's quite a lot of line for so little population centres, and is still worked with multiple signal boxes and tokens (or more specifically Tablets). That can't come cheap and without the boat traffic potential business can't be high, especially South of Girvan.

ChiefPlanner · 27 Sep 2018

craigybagel said:
Thanks for that, those are some interesting figures.

I can't speak for the South end, but the timetable change with the extra short at the North end actually resulted in fewer passengers traveling - presumably owing to the new times being less useful then the olf timetable, especially for school/college traffic.

That said, I was slightly disappointed that the new franchise is only seeing 1 extra train a day - the potential is definitely there to see extra traffic, if only a timetable can be devised to suit them.

Now that's a very good suggestion. It's quite a lot of line for so little population centres, and is still worked with multiple signal boxes and tokens (or more specifically Tablets). That can't come cheap and without the boat traffic potential business can't be high, especially South of Girvan.

The mechanical "ROC" at Pantyffynon is an incredibly good value way of running a deeply rural line , as cheaply as possible. I agree that even one extra train a day is a bit low - but at least it shows some "intent" ..could do more is , I think, the answer. At least it is still there. (with some decent attractions on the way)

EastisECML · 27 Sep 2018

Any idea what the subsidy for rail travel in the North East is? On the line to Whitby, the Tyne Valley line and some stations on the ECML through Northumberland we have some stations which seem to serve very few people or in some cases pretty much no one directly. I read somewhere on here the Northern Connect service from Carlisle to Middlesbrough is going to serve only the major stations en route which perhaps might be pointing to the future of rail travel in these parts focusing on the larger communities and the smaller ones being sacrificed for faster inter-urban journeys.

Bald Rick · 27 Sep 2018

ChiefPlanner said:
... The doubling of the Sunday service - from 1 to 2 tph certainly helped a tad , and there are other aspirations if not commitments for a 20%+ service uplift with 170's in the new franchise. (* Any ideas how the new service pattern with the short workings on the south end performing) ?)

Half hourly on the HoW Guv? o_O

Bald Rick · 27 Sep 2018

As others have mentioned, if costs were allocated to lines, then Llandudno Jn to Blaneau Ffestiniog must be at least on the podium. I’d be surprised if that line had had less than £100m spent on it in the last decade (all costs, operations, maintenance, renewal, and reinstatement). I don’t know how many punters have used it in that time, but it won’t be many.

I’m also surprised that no one has FOId to find out how much all the reinstatement has cost over the last ‘x’ years. Or if they have, what the answer is.

ChiefPlanner · 27 Sep 2018

Bald Rick said:
Half hourly on the HoW Guv?

Akin to the Cambrian in one's dreams , but 6 workings vice the present 4 , but spaced according to likely demand (or the resources for 6) , for far too long the timetable has been ossified by the very long departed "York Mails" , with crippling early departures from Salop and Swansea. The BR Regional cuts took out the daylight trains , and kept the outmoded end to end trains in the quiet hours.

Anyway - best make best use of what you can. Route wise. Take a hard look at the actual passenger intentions.

ChiefPlanner · 27 Sep 2018

EastisECML said:
Any idea what the subsidy for rail travel in the North East is? On the line to Whitby, the Tyne Valley line and some stations on the ECML through Northumberland we have some stations which seem to serve very few people or in some cases pretty much no one directly. I read somewhere on here the Northern Connect service from Carlisle to Middlesbrough is going to serve only the major stations en route which perhaps might be pointing to the future of rail travel in these parts focusing on the larger communities and the smaller ones being sacrificed for faster inter-urban journeys.

Again - going back a bit - but regrettably the Newcastle based , or focused Regional routes , were the worst performing on the basis of costs versus revenues in BR days

Probably a reflection on the dynamic and not for the best changes to the regional economy at the time , but as an example the SRA played with a 30 min service Middlesborough to Newcastle via the Coast under special Rail Partnership Policy funding - and it turned out not to increase patronage by any major effect , but spread the loadings over 2 trains vice one.

Other similar schemes like a Sunday services off Clitheroe to Manchester direct - (there was incredibly no Sunday service from there or Colne to Manchester) , did OK - Colne did not , but the resources were then realigned to Clitheroe - Manchester , which did extremely well. (and is there to this day) ...... again , know your markets and identify gaps.

EastisECML · 27 Sep 2018

ChiefPlanner said:
Again - going back a bit - but regrettably the Newcastle based , or focused Regional routes , were the worst performing on the basis of costs versus revenues in BR days

Probably a reflection on the dynamic and not for the best changes to the regional economy at the time , but as an example the SRA played with a 30 min service Middlesborough to Newcastle via the Coast under special Rail Partnership Policy funding - and it turned out not to increase patronage by any major effect , but spread the loadings over 2 trains vice one.

Other similar schemes like a Sunday services off Clitheroe to Manchester direct - (there was incredibly no Sunday service from there or Colne to Manchester) , did OK - Colne did not , but the resources were then realigned to Clitheroe - Manchester , which did extremely well. (and is there to this day) ...... again , know your markets and identify gaps.

I think there's an argument to be made for offering up a frequent enough service that encourages more people to use it. But it's also legitimate to argue some places will just never offer up the numbers required for such service increases. I think if a half hourly service between Newcastle and Middlesbrough via the ECML & Stillington could ever happen, that might do better. But an hourly service on the Durham coast seems about right.

Llandudno · 27 Sep 2018

Bald Rick said:
As others have mentioned, if costs were allocated to lines, then Llandudno Jn to Blaneau Ffestiniog must be at least on the podium. I’d be surprised if that line had had less than £100m spent on it in the last decade (all costs, operations, maintenance, renewal, and reinstatement). I don’t know how many punters have used it in that time, but it won’t be many.

I’m also surprised that no one has FOId to find out how much all the reinstatement has cost over the last ‘x’ years. Or if they have, what the answer is.

Took a trip on the Conwy Valley line today, approx 50 pax leaving Llandudno Junction on the lunchtime departure. Pax boarded and alighted at all intermediate stations, except Dolgarrog. I alighted at Betws y Coed along with 60% of passengers.

No attempt is made to coordinate train and bus times at BYC, indeed there is no signage at the station as to where the buses depart from, the bus stop is hidden by a car park 100 yards behind you as you leave the station, in the opposite direction to the shops and cafes.

I was planning to visit Barmouth a couple of weeks ago from Llandudno, the morning train arrives at Blaenau Ffestiniog at 1130. Guess what time the bus leaves BF, yes 1130. Four hours for the next one, so took the car instead.

Bearing in mind that most bus services in Snowdonia are contracted and timings specified by the Council, it beggars belief they don’t try to coordinate timetables, after all there is the excellent North Wales Day Rover Bus/train ticket!

Trivia:Most expensive subsidy per passenger

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