Southeastern Overcharges for Swanley Travelcards

Starmill · 27 Sep 2018

In March of 2016, Swanley station joined Travelcard Zone 8. This means that a Zones 1-9 Travlecard can be used for travel to Swanley. This costs £13.50 - and I have seen a London Underground ticket machine offering to sell this fare.

If you go onto the Southeastern website and ask for a Travelcard from Swanley to London Zones 1-6 though (which is route Also Available At London Zones 7-9) you are charged £14.20:

If you use the same website to ask for a ticket from Chesunt to London Zones 1-6, which is the same as the ticket from Swanley in being AAA London Zone 7-9, the correct price of £13.50 is charged:

So why are users of Swanley's ticket machines or ticket office, or those unfortunate enough to put Swanley in the journey planner rather than those 'in the know' enough to enter Chesunt, charged this 70 pence surcharge?

To add confusion to the matter, those at another Zone 8 station, Chalfont & Latimer, are also overcharged, although only by 10 pence to £13.60:

The point here is that one Zones 1-9 Travelcard cannot have less validity than another, and all of these stations are within those zones. So Southeastern are therefore charging a premium for what would appear to be exactly the same product, over the agreed price. I am surprised this is allowed.

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alistairlees · 27 Sep 2018

Starmill said:
In March of 2016, Swanley station joined Travelcard Zone 8. This means that a Zones 1-9 Travlecard can be used for travel to Swanley. This costs £13.50 - and I have seen a London Underground ticket machine offering to sell this fare.

If you go onto the Southeastern website and ask for a Travelcard from Swanley to London Zones 1-6 though (which is route Also Available At London Zones 7-9) you are charged £14.20:

Although that appears to be in the fares data: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=SAY&dest=0035

Clip · 27 Sep 2018

alistairlees said:
Although that appears to be in the fares data: http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=SAY&dest=0035

It is and ive just tried a couple of other sites and they show the same too

OutThursday 27 Sep 2018Swanley SAY to London Underground Zone 1-6 425
Earlier
Later
Outward times
Depart SAY16:35 SAY16:41 SAY16:41 SAY17:05
Arrive 42517:08 42517:24 42517:29 42517:38
Duration 0h 33m 0h 43m 0h 48m 0h 33m
Changes 1 2 1 1
Single tickets - SingleTickets leg
Single tickets - Outward leg
Anytime Day SingleTravel any time of day.

£14.60

and thats just off Northerns.

Guess the fare data needs to be updated

greatkingrat · 27 Sep 2018

There are some interesting differences in the restriction codes as well

Swanley - £14.20 B2 (not valid on trains departing before 0915)
Amersham / Chesham / Chalfont / Chorleywood / Rickmansworth - £13.60 B1 (not valid on trains departing before 0930)
Watford High Street - £13.60 B2 (not valid on trains departing before 0915)
Brentwood / Bushey / Theobalds Grove / Carpenders Park - £13.60 C4 (not valid arriving London Terminals before 1000)
Dartford - £13.50 B2 (not valid on trains departing before 0915)
Cheshunt / Waltham Cross - £13.50 C4 (not valid arriving London Terminals before 1000)

RJ · 27 Sep 2018

greatkingrat said:
There are some interesting differences in the restriction codes as well

Which will probably be corrected, but not in favour of passengers.

30907 · 27 Sep 2018

RJ said:
Which will probably be corrected, but not in favour of passengers.

Why do they need to be corrected? I assume they are similar to non-TC fares for the respective stations or routes. (Swanley and Dartford would have been B1 or rather the old C9 back in BR days).

furlong · 27 Sep 2018

For any station that is now within the zones, the fare should be identical to the travelcard fare (and the restriction code has no effect - the standard travelcard time restriction applies). Time to get the ORR involved? Anyone who paid too much and can be identified should be contacted and given a refund of the difference (plus compensation), and where people can't be identified, after local advertising, perhaps the remaining sums might be donated to charity so the train companies aren't seen to be making profit from their own mistakes.

A Challenge · 27 Sep 2018

It would be interesting to see if there is anyone with a season for this that may have been overcharged by more than £100?

furlong · 27 Sep 2018

Looks like standard class annual season ticket holders (AAA LDN ZONE 7-8) would be overcharged by £132 if any such tickets were sold. The TOC ought to contact people on its database and make refunds plus compensation automatically - if it doesn't someone might apply pressure through the press/ORR/DfT.

PeterC · 27 Sep 2018

Presumably the websites are still selling old style tickets combining a 1 to 6 travelcard with a return to the zone 6 boundary rather than 1 to 9 travelcards. Are there any benefits from this? I would guess that you couldn't use the more expensive ticket for a day trip from Swanley to Chesham for example.

The best way around all this is just to use Oyster or contactless as the off peak cap is only £12.50

causton · 27 Sep 2018

PeterC said:
Presumably the websites are still selling old style tickets combining a 1 to 6 travelcard with a return to the zone 6 boundary rather than 1 to 9 travelcards.

That is afraid incorrect. The ticket is Origin: wherever (i.e. AMERSHAM) Destination: LONDON ZONES 1-6 Route: AAA LDN ZONE 7-9 (or as appropriate).
However as these tickets are historically set by different operators, it seems that when revising the zone boundaries nobody has banged the TOCs' heads together to ensure they are all the same price as a TfL issued Zone 1-9 (or 1-8 etc) Travelcard.

Conversely TfL ticket machines issue completely different Travelcards, including ones which allow for multiple extensions out of the boundaries on one ticket - for example you can get one out to Shenfield and Watford Junction - but of course you cannot buy these at Shenfield or Watford Junction stations as that would be far too easy. It's all a bit of a dark art really. And I doubt TfL mind much as Oyster/Contactless is the future, who uses paper tickets anymore? /s

Be3G · 28 Sep 2018

causton said:
Conversely TfL ticket machines issue completely different Travelcards, including ones which allow for multiple extensions out of the boundaries on one ticket - for example you can get one out to Shenfield and Watford Junction - but of course you cannot buy these at Shenfield or Watford Junction stations as that would be far too easy. It's all a bit of a dark art really. And I doubt TfL mind much as Oyster/Contactless is the future, who uses paper tickets anymore? /s

I think this is the case because TfL view all the pseudo-zones for extra stations as being fully concentric rings rather than a series of independent ‘bulges’. The order, I believe, goes like this:

Zone 1
Zone 2
Zone 3
Zone 4
Zone 5
Zone 6
Zone 7
Zone 8
Zone 9
Zone Watford and Grays
Zone Broxbourne etc.
Zone Shenfield
Zone Redhill etc.
Zone Gatwick

So a travelcard issued for one of those zones will also be valid to all of the zones above it – if I've got the order correct!

MikeWh · 28 Sep 2018

Be3G said:
I think this is the case because TfL view all the pseudo-zones for extra stations as being fully concentric rings rather than a series of independent ‘bulges’. The order, I believe, goes like this:

Zone 1
Zone 2
Zone 3
Zone 4
Zone 5
Zone 6
Zone 7
Zone 8
Zone 9
Zone Watford and Grays
Zone Broxbourne etc.
Zone Shenfield
Zone Redhill etc.
Zone Gatwick

So a travelcard issued for one of those zones will also be valid to all of the zones above it – if I've got the order correct!

That's the correct order, but bear in mind that you can't buy travelcards on Oyster for Grays area or Redhill area/Gatwick.

Be3G · 28 Sep 2018

Indeed, though this thread concerns paper day travelcards. I rarely use ticket machines (either Overground or Underground) so I don't actually know which of the zonal combinations I listed are available as paper tickets from said machines as causton was discussing; it'd be interesting to have a list and prices!

PeterC · 28 Sep 2018

causton said:
That is afraid incorrect. The ticket is Origin: wherever (i.e. AMERSHAM) Destination: LONDON ZONES 1-6 Route: AAA LDN ZONE 7-9 (or as appropriate).
However as these tickets are historically set by different operators, it seems that when revising the zone boundaries nobody has banged the TOCs' heads together to ensure they are all the same price as a TfL issued Zone 1-9 (or 1-8 etc) Travelcard.
SNIP

So to be clear, these tickets have full 1 to 9 validity so you could use one from Swanley to Chesham? From the original description I assumed that the validity would be the same as, say, a Reading to 1 to 6 Travelcard only permitting multiple journeys within zones 1 to 6 plus a round trip from the named station.

A Challenge · 28 Sep 2018

As it's AAA Z7-9 it can be used in Zones 7-9 (7, 8, 9)

causton · 28 Sep 2018

Be3G said:
Indeed, though this thread concerns paper day travelcards. I rarely use ticket machines (either Overground or Underground) so I don't actually know which of the zonal combinations I listed are available as paper tickets from said machines as causton was discussing; it'd be interesting to have a list and prices!

Overground stations just sell tickets from whatever the current station (or whatever the chosen station in Tickets from other stations) to London Zones 1-6 and whatever validity that may be.

I took this picture in 2016 mainly to convince people there is a Watford Junction option, the options might have changed since then.

As5IbebmqyGQvPqjXm-Cv8DjT_uXNqkL1lbqvdn9yMgz5fkLEsi8pjW6YghbMuloZ8S-StpY7KEDu36umCfxEwYpX9sLjJQ1lkim9Vz9jXROfz9o7CjJwbhtIgjqGc439Q4tPfz13GBEzNKADTZERIYcoNhjLqCKiPqVCfRF-LV677JN25h_2e1jTDNa-bbg5UCnM8P2gP9okAW5T08BWJrW7nfk-jdbxoQAxb2f9LuOXlTYAsEiS-zcyH31wJ7n1e-pwgU5cu-wuyyWzPaBK41FDqlSoKJwOUSpf4PNA9z0LgQbLAmWl2g0oGGbde6UV8lGZ8rKkCIo30mrHtwoICWUCutUxWsPjJdr4G3ev5K9FUEGxA6loEA9A6pDCRPF8ZnSiALr3J35aLZqUs_rHuNPXBuEfNO4R20vePh2TUVucqmya3PZ5iynt0GIQT69AZMuA_eKdi9rPoy-52Cpp7dE2IOKj8Phf19d8xomkxB1bIcq9q5KnpqCb-SFVAvoIKz6G_GsVCDpc3JY_k6EAfSLDEiDQ38OIPFzA1u1tPDY1PG98O6vUw_L9mjkvOujaNnQSE8TmeTDMKYPj_yyjvWhN6_2hP6x0HH2qW4ZiQfa07yPAt5fBvMrIoulkLUR=w1560-h878-no

Image above shows list of available Travelcards:

Zones 1-4 (greyed out)
Zones 1-6
Zones 1-9
Zones 1-9 + Watford Junction
Zones 1-9 + Watford Junction and Hertford East
Zones 1-9 + Watford Junction, Hertford East and Shenfield

PeterC said:
So to be clear, these tickets have full 1 to 9 validity so you could use one from Swanley to Chesham? From the original description I assumed that the validity would be the same as, say, a Reading to 1 to 6 Travelcard only permitting multiple journeys within zones 1 to 6 plus a round trip from the named station.

Yes, let's take a Watford Junction - London Zones 1-6 Route AAA Zones 7-9 for example. This provides one return to the edge of zone 9 and then unlimited travel within the zones 1-9 in contrast to a normal outboundary Travelcard. Likewise, an Amersham - London Zones 1-6 Route AAA Zones 7-9 from a National Rail machine would allow unlimited travel in Zones 1-6 and due to the route also 7-9 unlimited travel.

lightbulb · 8 Oct 2018

Be3G said:
I think this is the case because TfL view all the pseudo-zones for extra stations as being fully concentric rings rather than a series of independent ‘bulges’. The order, I believe, goes like this:

Zone 1
Zone 2
Zone 3
Zone 4
Zone 5
Zone 6
Zone 7
Zone 8
Zone 9
Zone Watford and Grays
Zone Broxbourne etc.
Zone Shenfield
Zone Redhill etc.
Zone Gatwick

So a travelcard issued for one of those zones will also be valid to all of the zones above it – if I've got the order correct!

If I read this correctly, then it means that an in-boundary Day Travelcard purchased at a TfL ticket machine for Gatwick should also be valid for unlimited travel within Zones 1-9, and also for unlimited travel to and from Watford Junction, Grays, Hertford East, and Shenfield. If so, I don't fancy my chances at the ticket barriers at any of the latter stations if the ticket is either rejected or retained, or if queried by a RPI, as the ticket would presumably not have AAA Watford Junction, Grays, Hertford East and Shenfield printed on it.

Starmill · 8 Oct 2018

lightbulb said:
If I read this correctly, then it means that an in-boundary Day Travelcard purchased at a TfL ticket machine for Gatwick should also be valid for unlimited travel within Zones 1-9, and also for unlimited travel to and from Watford Junction, Grays, Hertford East, and Shenfield. If so, I don't fancy my chances at the ticket barriers at any of the latter stations if the ticket is either rejected or retained, or if queried by a RPI, as the ticket would presumably not have AAA Watford Junction, Grays, Hertford East and Shenfield printed on it.

The furthest out you can get one is Zones 1-9+ Watford Junction, Broxbourne & Shenfield.

Southeastern Overcharges for Swanley Travelcards

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