Dead Miles/Running empty to garage

I know some companies have positioning journeys ie FirstPotteries from Adderley Green to Hanley, but why don't they do them all the the time. I see a lot on Keelings road, which run empty but the could do journeys from ie 99 terminates at Chell Heath , could pick up or drop passengers towards AG.
Another example Arriva 9 Macclesfield-Moss Rose all journeying start/finish at the the bus station. About15 years ago if would have been fine as the garage was at the old bus station, but the garage is near Moss Rose (towards Leek)



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I would imagine the main reason is time constraints, dead mileage is a lot quicker than running in service

First registered some positioning journeys in Bristol as service 53(?) a couple of years ago - between the depot and Temple Meads (to serve the 8/9 IIRC). It was mentioned at the time that the fuel rebate (for running in service) made it worthwhile.

The only other dedicated service for placing journeys that I can think of was the LRT 68 (Portobello to Mayfield) in the mid '90s.

I guess it comes down to whether sufficient people are going to use a service that runs in the "wrong" direction and whether the service would be reliable enough to run (given that operators are going to be picked up on persistent late running).

For example, the First 20 in Sheffield runs in service from Olive Grove depot to Hemsworth (and on to Ecclesfield) in the early morning (maybe there are a couple of people in Gleadless Valley who'll get a bus from the "wrong" side of the road, due to infrequent service on other routes at that time in the morning?), but there are no return journeys in the evening (possibly as it'd be quite unreliable by the time it's run from Ecclesfield to Hemsworth in the evening - and it'd be counter productive to give the bus five minutes dwell time at Hemsworth before it runs on to Olive Grove!).

First in Bradford and Stagecoach in Glenrothes have run shuttle services from the bus station to the bus depot, which I guess is one way of doing it.

tbtc said:

First registered some positioning journeys in Bristol as service 53(?) a couple of years ago - between the depot and Temple Meads (to serve the 8/9 IIRC). It was mentioned at the time that the fuel rebate (for running in service) made it worthwhile.

The only other dedicated service for placing journeys that I can think of was the LRT 68 (Portobello to Mayfield) in the mid '90s.

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Bristol has the 53 for placement onto the 8/9 and the 54 for the 70/71 though they were identical routes!

First Cymru have the 27A from the bus station to Ravenhill depot with departures at 1830, 1830, 1845, 1851, 1900, 1901, 1905, 1908, 1910, 1915, 1915, 1921, 1928, 1930, 1934, 1935 (among others)

All of the above -

the difference between running light and in service - as well as costing a few minutes on the driver's paid time (which may be offset by a few additional fares, or may just abstract revenue from the regular service) might make the difference between the duty fitting in drivers' hours rules / local agreement or not

it also means that if service X changes then whatever service the depot is on needs changing as well, which means another service variation fee - although you might get away with service X running from A to B with occasional journeys extended to C (where the depot is)

it's awkward from a marketing point of view to have odd journeys running a few times a day - and can be delaying while drivers answer the 'I didn't know the number whatever came along this road' sort of thing.

also, as an example, Potteries (in the early 90s at least) had the traffic office / cash handling facilities at the bus stations not the garages at Hanley and Newcastle, so the driver would not have had a module in the ticket machine, and on journeys to the garage, would not have been able to pay in when they got there.

In the franchised environment that is London, TFL don't generally let it happen, as it will then change (and generate complaints) if the operator (and therefore garage) changes at re-tender, or if the operator moves the route from one garage to another. There used to be some quite lengthy garage journeys on London Buses, almost all of which ran in service. The longest I can immediately think of was route 70 which (at one time) ran Lewisham - Victoria, albeit via an indirect route. Garage journeys ran in service between New Cross garage and either end via the 36 route.

I know of a route which has 24 miles of dead running, each way. This is to get two buses each day to and from the end of the route. If this were to run in service it would take a lot longer and there wouldn't be the freedom to come back a variety of differenr ways, depending on roadworks/traffic.

I'm not sure if it is still the case or not, but I believe an operator could claim the VAT back on the fuel used between the service start/end point and the depot.

If that were the case, then it might be more beneficial to claim that rather than to run "in service" to the depot.

Trent Bartons "Ilkeston Flyer" extends to/from Langley Mill Depot at the start & end of each day. I fail to understand why they don't do the same with the 15 route. This would give earlier departures southbound from Heanor to Ilkeston & also travel opportunities to Long Eaton/Airport for anyone in the Heanor area. I've had the 20 fail to show on Heanor Road and empty 15s go northbound while I'm stood waiting for an hour!

Simon75 said:

I know some companies have positioning journeys ie FirstPotteries from Adderley Green to Hanley, but why don't they do them all the the time. I see a lot on Keelings road, which run empty but the could do journeys from ie 99 terminates at Chell Heath , could pick up or drop passengers towards AG.
Another example Arriva 9 Macclesfield-Moss Rose all journeying start/finish at the the bus station. About15 years ago if would have been fine as the garage was at the old bus station, but the garage is near Moss Rose (towards Leek)



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I think it depends on the journeys that run before and after and the times of day as it will be much quicker to avoid Hanley city center at peak times. I think First Potteries are trying to run dead runs in service on the 11 and 12 between Adderley Green and Hanley as there are buses every 10 mins or so in the morning peak but hardly anything going out of Hanley at the same time.

FIG1/2 operate these service via the 800/300 series and are registered services merely a way of gaining a rebate on fuel allowance etc etc etc think BSOG

BSOG is paid on most dead mileage in England anyway. If I remember correctly, the only dead mileage not allowed to be claimed is when a bus is changing FROM a service/journey eligible for BSOG TO a service/journey which isn't.

So, as an example, one of the duties I work starts on an early morning service heading out of town. It then moves on to a tendered school run which isn't available to the public, before going back on to the service route after that.
In that example, the dead run from the depot to the start point of the first service is BSOG claimable. Then, the dead run from the terminus of the first service to the start point of the school run is NOT claimable - but the dead run from the school to the start point of the next service run IS claimable.

All very complicated, and I'm open to correction on any of the above.

In Scotland, this isn't the case, as BSOG for dead mileage was discontinued in 2012.

Darklord8899 said:

I'm not sure if it is still the case or not, but I believe an operator could claim the VAT back on the fuel used between the service start/end point and the depot.

If that were the case, then it might be more beneficial to claim that rather than to run "in service" to the depot.

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Bus operators reclaim all VAT, as bus services are zero rated for VAT purposes....

Cesarcollie said:

Bus operators reclaim all VAT, as bus services are zero rated for VAT purposes....

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Ah didn't know that! Thank you

For many years, Warrington Borough Transport ran all journeys between the bus station and the depot as a “5A” service. Not once did I ever see a passenger on board and timetables were not made available.

This stopped three of four years ago, presumably due to a change in the tax benefit?