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Safest way to rescue someone from the rails?

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AnkleBoots

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The recent news about a man being rescued from the rails at Marble Arch makes me wonder how to approach this.

If the advice is to never attempt to rescue someone in this way, what's the quickest way to force the incoming train to stop before arriving into the station?

Apologies if there is a previous thread but I can't see it.
 
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carriageline

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There is no “quick way” to stop a train

1) getting the attention of a driver on a train on an adjacent platform
2) platform staff
3) flagging an approaching train down to stop
4) using a signal post telephone on the platform to advise the signaller
5) helppoint?
 

Bookd

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There is an interesting question as to what you (or I ) would do.
The rescuer was praised by the judge for his bravery which cannot be disputed; he was injured himself and said that he knew that he was putting his own life at risk. It seems that he made an instant decision that if nothing was done the elderly gentleman who was deliberately pushed onto the track would be killed so he took a chance to rescue him. Other people nearby detained the assailant.
I am of an age when I know that I would not be capable of his actions but I have no idea what I should do other than watch in horror.
 

eastwestdivide

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If the advice is to never attempt to rescue someone in this way...

Is that the advice though?
I had a quick search, and couldn't find any official advice on what to do as a bystander in that situation, only comments from drivers and others on what to do if you are in the pit between the rails.

If I were in that situation, with a person in the pit, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to shout to the person in trouble to keep down and then get someone to do one of 1-5 in carrieagline's post above.
If it was a surface line with no pit, I hope I'd try and find enough people to drag the person in trouble to safety pretty sharpish, unless I could see a train coming (or if they were in contact with a live rail).
But it's a fine judgment call, and I don't know if anyone could be sure of getting it right in the heat of the moment.
 

NoOnesFool

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It can be very complicated, especially with third rails. If you look at the case of Diana Morgan-Hill, you can understand just some of the implications.
 

Dstock7080

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In this circumstance, operate the platform emergency stop plunger.
The rescuer in this case was severely injured by bridging the running rail and negative rail which should certainly be avoided.
 

KingJ

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In this circumstance, operate the platform emergency stop plunger.
The rescuer in this case was severely injured by bridging the running rail and negative rail which should certainly be avoided.

Whats a platform emergency stop plunger ? How does it work and what does it do ? Pics ?

Cheers in advance.

The recent RAIB report in to a Trap and Drag at Notting Hill Gate on the Central Line shows a picture of one of them in Figure 9/Page 27. However, it also notes in Paragraph 76/Page 26 that no one on the platform activated the platform emergency stop plungers at any point. (And I don't fault them for that - it's hard to know what to do in the heat of the moment and the plunger isn't exactly something that's obvious or that most people would have prior knowledge of!).

Although a trap and drag is a bit different to being pushed on to the tracks as here, my own approach would to quickly find an 'emergency' button/plunger/lever etc of any sort, and if I couldn't quickly identify one, to catch the attention of the driver/guard etc (i.e. wave hands vigorously in the air!) - in the hope that in a trap-and-drag incident it'd be noticeable on the in-cab CCTV, or that in the case of an approaching train it would catch the driver's attention to highlight that there's a danger ahead. That said, if I would actually remember and think to do this in a similar, sudden, scenario is not something I can be sure of - and I hope I never have to confirm if I can or not either.
 

Peter Mugridge

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If a member of the public held both hands in the air and a member of train crew or station staff saw that, would they instantly get the same reaction as if it was a member of staff holding their hands in the air?
 

Gemz91

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If a member of the public held both hands in the air and a member of train crew or station staff saw that, would they instantly get the same reaction as if it was a member of staff holding their hands in the air?

Yes they would. If I saw someone holding their hands in the air, there's nothing to say they are not off duty staff, or a manager who doesn't wear uniform. I'd rather explain to my manager why i stopped my train thinking that there may be an emergency, then tell a coroners court why I ignored someone who was giving me the emergency stop signal.

If it turned out it was just someone doing the YMCA on the platform and I stopped my train, I'm sure my manager would see the funny side of it.
 

ComUtoR

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Although a trap and drag is a bit different to being pushed on to the tracks as here, my own approach would to quickly find an 'emergency' button/plunger/lever etc of any sort,

This is the first I've heard of one, my thanks to the both of you for highlighting them. And therein lies the problem. How many or us would even know to look for such a thing ? I notice they are linked to ATO. They certainly aren't a common site. I wonder if they will be installed in the Core.

in the hope that in a trap-and-drag incident it'd be noticeable on the in-cab CCTV,

TBH it probably wouldn't be noticed. The 3mph cut off comes pretty quickly.
 

philthetube

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TBH it probably wouldn't be noticed. The 3mph cut off comes pretty quickly.

There is no three second cut off on the underground, the monitors remain active until the rear car has left the platform.
 

Roy Badami

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Is the emergency stop handsignal the same on LUL and NR? I kind of assume there's a fair chance it would be, given its probably old enough to predate that distinction, but there's no real reason to assume it necessarily is today, given different rule books.

Of course, given the LUL rule book is secret, I guess we're not allowed to know the answer to that question. (And there's some justification for that - do we really want drunken late night louts giving handsignals to trains just for a laugh?)

EDIT: I guess the question I can, maybe, ask is - would you expect that the NR rulebook stop handsignal would typically be understood by an LUL train operator (regardless of whether or not it's an official handsignal in the LUL rule book)
 

Roy Badami

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Anyway, regardless of the above, thank you to the drivers in this thread who commented. I was always very unsure as to how likely an emergency handsignal would be to be acted upon if not given by someone wearing hi-viz.

Hopefully this is all academic, anyway, and none of us in this thread ever have need to give such a such signal...
 

_toommm_

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Anyway, regardless of the above, thank you to the drivers in this thread who commented. I was always very unsure as to how likely an emergency handsignal would be to be acted upon if not given by someone wearing hi-viz.

Hopefully this is all academic, anyway, and none of us in this thread ever have need to give such a such signal...

One would think a group of people frantically waving would make the driver think.

As for one lone person, the driver may think twice. But as others said, I'm sure 99% of drivers would rather emergency brake and apologise to the passengers, then risk changing people's lives for the worse.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I am led to believe that the standard "both hands raised in the air" as an emergency stop signal to an approaching train - along with the old BR rulebook comment that "any light waved violently denotes danger" applies pretty well universally.

Now - in a situation where one needs to catch the attention of an approaching train , I would certainly (and have done) , used both - dare I suggest the use of a mobile phone as a torch ? - if I was in this scenario one natural reaction would be to send someone , anyone , towards an approaching train (tube or otherwise) and signal such from the platform or other safe (and I mean safe) area.
 

AnkleBoots

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Thank you for the answers. And if I may ask some more questions:

1. If there is a member of dispatch staff on the platform would you expect them to be sufficiently trained in the particularities (eg pits and plungers) to take control of the situation, and obey their instructions?
2. If I need to wave my hands in the air, am I aiming to catch the attention of a. the driver through the cab window, b. the driver through the CCTV in cab, or c. a CCTV operator elsewhere?
3. At which point on the platform is it best to stand when waving?
4. In terms of stopping distances, what proportion of the platform does the tube train need where the driver initiates an emergency stop on entering the station?
5. Where on the platform are the plungers?
 

Roy Badami

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the old BR rulebook comment that "any light waved violently denotes danger"

Pretty sure that's still in the current NR rulebook. Although a revision a few years ago reworded it, and replaced the word "violently". (I forget what the replacement word is - "vigorously", perhaps?)
 

ChiefPlanner

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Pretty sure that's still in the current NR rulebook. Although a revision a few years ago reworded it, and replaced the word "violently". (I forget what the replacement word is - "vigorously", perhaps?)

Fair enough .....seems like a fair choice of wording to me ! ......

Again , old school , knocked into us about never turn your back on a departing train from a platform , as well as observing any passing trains for "signs of distress , overheating axle-boxes , goods falling off etc ..."

Not a bad strategy all round , and still practised to the best of my knowledge.
 

Roy Badami

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1. If there is a member of dispatch staff on the platform would you expect them to be sufficiently trained in the particularities (eg pits and plungers) to take control of the situation, and obey their instructions?
As discussed above, emergency train stop plungers on the platform are limited to a very few tube lines - possibly currently only the Central line - so won't be generally applicable.
2. If I need to wave my hands in the air, am I aiming to catch the attention of a. the driver through the cab window, b. the driver through the CCTV in cab, or c. a CCTV operator elsewhere?
3. At which point on the platform is it best to stand when waving?
IIRC the standard emergency stop signal is simply to hold both arms straight up above your head. It doesn't involve waving, specifically. (There is an alternative, night time signal of vigorously waving a light, which was discussed above, though.)
Remember, though, that a driver would normally expect any handsignal to be given by someone wearing hi-viz clothing. I'm not sure there's any "usually" about it's use, so I doubt there's any standard place to stand. It will all be down to your judgment of how much sighting time the driver would have to see you and respond.
If it were me, I'd strongly encourage other passengers to move clear of me, so I stood out from the crowd, and face the train and try to catch the drivers eye. Given that I wouldn't be wearing hi-viz, the object is to make what would be a someone unconventional signal as clear as possible.
EDIT: If you're talking about signalling "do not dispatch" or signalling to a train that has just been dispatched (and just started to move) then I don't think there's any standard way to do that in most circumstances (although during LUL platform dispatch, I believe the dispatcher can do that by lowering the bat). The handsignals we're talking about here are _intended_ to be given by railway workers to approaching trains, and are essentially the equivalent of a red signal. Although if there were clearly and deliberately given to a train on the platform from behind, the driver may well understand the intention (as drivers in this thread have indicated).
4. In terms of stopping distances, what proportion of the platform does the tube train need where the driver initiates an emergency stop on entering the station?
I'm not sure there's any one answer to this - it will depend on the speed of the train, to some extent the class of train, and of course to adhesion conditions. In the case of a train not scheduled to stop at that station, there's very little chance of it being able to stop within the station in response to a signal given from someone on the platform.
5. Where on the platform are the plungers?
On the Central line, there are clearly labeled "emergency train stop" plungers at intervals on the platform. They are intended for public use and there therefore clearly labelled and quite conspicuous. They don't exist on NR, or on most other tube lines.
 
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AnkleBoots

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If it was a surface line with no pit, I hope I'd try and find enough people to drag the person in trouble to safety pretty sharpish, unless I could see a train coming (or if they were in contact with a live rail).
Please can you expand on this? Is touching someone who is in contact with a live rail as dangerous as touching a live rail directly? (I understand that the rescuer was burned rather than electrocuted)
 

Roy Badami

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Yes. Generally, touching anyone who is being electrocuted carries severe risks of being electrocuted yourself. The rescuer was incredibly lucky that he touched one of the live rails and suffered only minor injuries from it.
 

Dstock7080

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Is the emergency stop handsignal the same on LUL and NR? I kind of assume there's a fair chance it would be, given its probably old enough to predate that distinction, but there's no real reason to assume it necessarily is today, given different rule books.
Both arms raised above head on LU is “normal stop signal” -
waved arms above head are the emergency stop signal.
 
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Bucephalus

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Please can you expand on this? Is touching someone who is in contact with a live rail as dangerous as touching a live rail directly? (I understand that the rescuer was burned rather than electrocuted)

As I understand, the rescuer touched the third rail directly. I would imagine touching a person in contact with the rail would be just as bad.
 

Dieseldriver

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As I understand, the rescuer touched the third rail directly. I would imagine touching a person in contact with the rail would be just as bad.
If someone is in contact with the juice rail and you are wearing well insulated footwear, the best way of rescuing them is to either use a dry piece of non conductive material (a plank of wood for example) and try to lever them off. As a last resort you could try kicking the part of them in contact with the rail as hard and swiftly as you can but obviously these come with a high degree of personal risk.
 
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