Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or whether the incompetent security guards will fail to let people through because they don't know where their destination is.
One thing that might work in winter at least would be to de-roof the platforms?
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Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.
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Or whether the incompetent security guards will fail to let people through because they don't know where their destination is.
One thing that might work in winter at least would be to de-roof the platforms?
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Killingworth
Established Member
It would be nice to think so, but I've been on 13/14 when trains have been so packed those standing near the doorways have had to get out to let others out, then get back in before boarding could start. Then half those on the platform can't get in and are left bewildered as to where to go next. If it was a late and overcrowded short formed East Midlands towards Sheffield it's probably a TPE over on another platform - where they'll probably find its 3 cars are already rammed full, so back to 13/14 for the next East Midlands. No wonder it's so often a milling throng of stressed humanity.
It amazes me that so many accept it's normal to stand for an hour on trains that are so often late, and they put up with that risk every day.
Longer trains won't necessarily solve the problems. Passengers dashing up and down to find coach A or F, especially those dragging wheeled cases to trip up the unwary, clash with those arriving from foreign parts unable to comprehend the mayhem into which they've been thrown.
Whichever way you look at it passenger numbers should continue to grow, so this isn't going to get better in a decade, far more likely it will get worse.
Of course reducing the number of trains would help, as would reducing the number of passengers. The challenge needs to be met by a range of measures, none of which is likely to be cheap or quick.
I doubt a large number of people change trains within the island platform since the May timetable change. Most changes will be between them and 1-12.
Both those view points are very much those of an enthusiast! Mayfield will never be used for transport purposes. The simplest and cheapest option would be to extend the exist lounge further over platforms and redesign it with a better layout and facilities.
Long distance overcrowding should be largely solved by TPEs new fleet. The issue of finding coaches for reserved seats is definately a problem. The VT zone option wouldn't work with so many different classes using the platforms. It highlights why a change in services and stock is necessary and it would still cause problems even if 2 platforms - 12tph became 4 and 16. I regularly use the Llandudno service and boarding is a mess, even with mid unit doors it will still be a problem because its a service that starts and terminates on through platforms. A deal to swap paths with Northern to alternate between terminating at Oxford Road P5 and Manchester Airport might be an improvement for both ToCs.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
What it needs is BIG displays above the platform edge facing inwards, each giving time and destination of the next train and (where the train is reservable), indication of whether each coach letter will stop to the left, right or underneath each sign, and of which coaches are first class or unreserved. This information exists for TPE at least - coach order sometimes appears on the existing displays - but could be used much better. Ideally it should identify the specific door for particular seat numbers, not just the coach letter.
At present there is about one display on each platform showing the next few trains, with a horde of people standing looking at it and blocking the way for everyone else. These displays should be frequent enough and large enough to be visible anywhere along the platform, and could also be facing inwards but positioned further back from the edge so so people not wanting the next train have to stand back in the "waiting zone" to see them.
At present there is about one display on each platform showing the next few trains, with a horde of people standing looking at it and blocking the way for everyone else. These displays should be frequent enough and large enough to be visible anywhere along the platform, and could also be facing inwards but positioned further back from the edge so so people not wanting the next train have to stand back in the "waiting zone" to see them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Er, why not? The Germans, French and Swiss manage to use a near-identical system (using letters) with all manner of different rolling stock, from 28m ICE vehicles to 18m Stadler FLIRT ones.
There is no reason why an accurate formation diagram with platform zones cannot be provided at every single station on the network. It is not difficult, and the above countries have had it for years.
Have you ever tried to get down those stairs in a hurry when the area's at its most crowded ? Waiting on 13/14 is more rational than waiting upstairs to miss your train.
Anyway, bigger lounges won't solve the chronic lack of track capacity
Altfish
Member
The use of Mayfield was a joke.
To extend the lounge over the Platforms would be both expensive and difficult. I'm not a QS but am a civil engineer and I reckon it would be half as much as a building 15/16 for a tenth of the benefit.
Leslie Fletcher
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There are now much bigger displays in the upstairs waiting lounge showing approaching trains on a kind of track circuit diagram which might help when trains are out of their timetabled order. The advice/instructions when to go down to the platforms are now much clearer. There are also delineated "waiting" and "boarding" areas on the platforms themselves. I haven't experienced the effect of these modest improvements at peak times but they seemed to be working in the middle of the day yesterday.
Dr Hoo
Established Member
Yes. It is getting much better IMO.
There is obviously a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation with the lounge. If ‘everybody’ (barring a few trainspotters) waited in the lounge until their train was ‘called’ the platforms wouldn’t be crowded in the first place, so it would be easier to get down.
I do think that additional, separate, down escalators would be a good idea in conjunction with an enlarged ‘raft’.
Given the general trend towards facility separation by level, as at London Bridge, Reading, Birmingham New Street, etc. I envisage that any new platform 15&16 would be done as part of a major raft/lounge extension anyway. I am not convinced that any money can sensibly be saved by trying to manage without one. So extending the lounge now would be a step towards what would be needed for the additional platforms later anyway.
There is obviously a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation with the lounge. If ‘everybody’ (barring a few trainspotters) waited in the lounge until their train was ‘called’ the platforms wouldn’t be crowded in the first place, so it would be easier to get down.
I do think that additional, separate, down escalators would be a good idea in conjunction with an enlarged ‘raft’.
Given the general trend towards facility separation by level, as at London Bridge, Reading, Birmingham New Street, etc. I envisage that any new platform 15&16 would be done as part of a major raft/lounge extension anyway. I am not convinced that any money can sensibly be saved by trying to manage without one. So extending the lounge now would be a step towards what would be needed for the additional platforms later anyway.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I don't think those were there last Friday, though I was concentrating on getting to 13 in the 2min or so before the alleged departure time of my train so I wasn't really looking. Displays of similar clarity on the platforms would really help as per my previous post, as long as they were lots of them - perhaps "digital railway" would do more for the P13/14 situation by doing this than in anything related to signalling?
I'd still be doubtful about the quality of information though - there was a line blockage at Stockport just ending and the announcements seemed to flip several times between a particular train terminating short and going through. There was also a train shown as "Delayed" on 13 which was actually (according to announcements) boarding in 13b. Until this sort of problem is resolved, many people will go down onto the platform regardless. And many will also go down at scheduled departure time even if their train is shown as late, so significant disruption will trigger a big increase in crowding.
Altfish
Member
THIS!!
I was on Platform 14 waiting for a late running Newcastle train (I was going to Leeds) - in less than 5-minutes there was a Hull train from Platform 3 (IIRC).
I had a reserved seat on the Newcastle train, I needed to know if it was imminent or do I head over the bridge for the Hull train.
The signage in the waiting area needs to be along the lines of "Next train to Leeds" is at xx:xx for key destinations.
There are many members of this site who look for any reason to re-use Mayfield! I meant extend the lounge either further over platforms 11 and 12 or over platform 10. I am guessing that would be much cheaper than out towards and above 13 and 14?
gordonjahn
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Good idea - re-using Mayfield is exactly what's needed!!
I drew it to understand "why not", but the horrid curves in the track, requirement for beams and bridges that putting 15/16 next to 13/14, much longer walks for interchanges, and more land take... it's quite obvious now.
Leslie Fletcher
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I think the "track circuit" diagram in the waiting area is some help with this kind of thing. It isn't really possible to tell from my photograph, but the little boxes on the diagram are labelled with the departure time of the train. If the train in question is on the diagram then it's on its way, and not far away.
Somewhere in the last few days, either on this forum or on Skyscrapercity, I've seen a photograph in which the times are visible.
Why are some trains missing from the track diagram? e.g. 12.20 Manchester Airport.
Leslie Fletcher
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Oops! I hadn't tried magnifying my photograph - doing so makes the times visible.
[Why are some trains missing from the track diagram? e.g. 12.20 Manchester Airport.] The photo was taken at 12.27 so I assume this train had already departed. I was waiting for the 12.52 Llandudno so wasn't checking on east-bound trains.
Sigh. So it says go to platform for a train already departed? That's really going to help reduce the crowds downstairs.
Leslie Fletcher
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My reading of the "Please go to Platform 13" request is to board the 12.29 train which is also shown on the diagram in the left-most berth. I noticed one little glitch whereby a train temporarily disappears behind another because there are not enough berths to show all the trains approaching (what geeks will recognise as) Slade Lane Junction.
Yes, but the smaller go to platform 13 board still shows the 1220.
If the railway can't even get two screens next to each other to be consistent, what's the point?
I wonder who wrote the software for this bespoke display? If they're looking for a contractor who can definitely do better, I might be available for a short term contract.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
This would work better (especially for Airport passengers) if we had train service numbers like in much of Europe. Our headcodes/reporting numbers aren't quite the same, so simply making those publically available wouldn't quite do the trick... But, when changing trains at Nuremberg, looking on the departure board for service Sp5291 made it easier to find my platform... especially as that service divides en-route. If the Northern Liverpool-Manchester-Airport-Crewe service was identified on that display as (for example) NT1001, and that number was displayed on all displays and on tickets/mobile tickets/schedules, it would be easier to wait up at the mini-lounge until your service was displayed as the next one in.
As others have said though, the information on the screens needs to be reliable and accurate. Including avoiding ambiguity such as the one I almost came unstuck on at Nuremberg: a DB employee saw me staring into space (Aspergers, of course!) and asked if I needed help (in English). I replied in German that I was fine, just waiting for the train to Cheb (which I mispronounced
). He replied (in German) that I needed the "third train" for "'Heb". He meant the rearmost unit in a 3-unit consist, but I initially took it the mean I should let the first two trains go, and board the third. Luckily I did check the display by the doors on the unit and realised my error!
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Altfish
Member
Very possibly, but remember that Platforms 1 to 12 are also elevated, and under Pl 10 is a car park(?) or what ever, maybe Metrolink.
It is just as difficult to build over that that it is to build over 13/14 or beyond.
Leslie Fletcher
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Ah, I see what you mean. Looking more carefully at the photo, I think may be an example of the glitch I mentioned earlier. I will give what I think are the details of what could be an easily correctable fault in the software (says me who hasn't written any serious software in about 25 years!) in case the software engineer concerned is reading this forum. Inevitably this is a bit geekish and I hope I have got it all right.
It seems that there are three trains on the section of track to the right of the convergence of the four routes (Deansgate?), the 12.29 in front, next the 12.33 and the 12.20 behind it, running late. As the 12.29 hasn't yet reached Platform 13 its display hasn't yet move into the right-most of the three berths in the display for this section, leaving two berths for three trains. The display of the 12.20 gets hidden behind the display of the 12.33 - the slight shadow gives it away - and will re-appear once the 12.29 reaches Platform 13 and the 12.33 moves forward. As I said earlier, I was watching the Platform 14 display, for around 30 minutes while waiting for my train, and the glitch happened several times in the right-most, blue, section of the display - the 13.01 is hidden behind the 12.52 in the photograph.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
In the case of icy weather, might that not pose a hazard to passengers who have to use those platforms?
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Quite possible. There would probably still be a covered area at the bottom of the steps to prevent them getting so slippery. Removing the canopies elsewhere would encourage passengers to gather there in bad weather and thereby block the steps.
Last time I used these platforms a couple of weeks ago, the info displayed on those boards about the order in which trains were arriving at p14 bore no relation to the order that they did actually arrive and depart.
(incidentally, one of the northbound trains used p13, which I've never seen before).
Boysteve
Member
This is not a rare event as I have seen it several times over the years. Then, during the summer I witnessed a TPEx 185 breakdown on platform 14 and it had to be taken out of service (presumably back to Ardwick depot). They pushed through several North/Westbound services on P13 whilst P14 was effectively blocked. Then when the failed train moved (under it's own steam) a few Southbound services then used P14 as it was empty when then approached, as opposed to P13 which was occupied with trains in the other direction! It took about 20 minutes to break this cycle of craziness!!! Much fun was had by all (not).
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
There is also the matter of those who have to use the lifts from the waiting lounge area rather than the stairs because of medical infirmities or those with large items of heavy luggage to consider.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
One day I was there all the westbound were running through 13 and the eastbound through 14 - I think there was some kind of signalling problem, perhaps an actual signal, that didn't matter in one direction. I've also been there several times when a train has sat down in one platform and the result is invariably chaos. In that situation I think they stop the wrong-direction trains at the b end.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I've seen it reversed before too, I think a unit was held for an extended period. It stayed like that for a while before there was enough of a gap in service to swap it back.
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