Venting about extremely unhelpful Northern employee

Long time lurker registering to vent a little - imagine there isn't much help that can be given (hence not posting this in Disputes) but I'd be interested to know whether everything I was told was true.

My girlfriend and I caught the 1215 service from Newcastle to Carlisle (aiming to reach Haltwistle) this afternoon, which was disrupted by a tree on the line near Haydon Bridge and terminated at Hexham. We were initially told to await the next service in an hour (the 1343 I believe) which was anticipated to run after the blockage was cleared - however, 30 minutes or so later a Northern employee from the ticket office told us a rail-replacement service was running which would take us up the line to a waiting train. My girlfriend and I were last onto the bus as we were using the toilets when the announcement was made and the man from the ticket office made sure we knew about it once we emerged.p

The bus terminated at Haydon Bridge with no sign of a waiting train; worse, an announcement came that the next service (the one we'd been waiting for in Hexham) had been cancelled. As such (given we were going to miss our appointment in Haltwistle) we caught the next rail replacement service back to Hexham having explained the situation to the driver.

On arrival back into Hexham the bus driver and I went into the ticket office where we were informed (by the same man who put us on the first bus) that the first bus should have taken us and other passengers to Haltwistle and not terminated at Haydon Bridge. However, after advising me that he was not allowed to sell me a new ticket for the journey we had taken and refund the original ticket, directing me towards Delay Repay (which as far as I know wouldn't cover a situation where we stopped short and returned to our starting pount) the ticket office employee turned quite unhelpful - when I asked him if he could provide his name or badge number to prove i had spoken to him about the bus issues which caused our decision when contacting Northern he point blank refused on two grounds:

1) That railway employees are not allowed to divulge this information to the public due to data protection and company regulations - which I know to be untrue as I have requested and been given this information in the past when having trouble with trains and needing to consult station/train staff for help.

2) That as he didn't see us physically pulling out of the station on the first bus, as far as he was concerned he only had our word for it we had travelled to Haydon Bridge in the first place - even though he acknowledged he remembered making sure we caught it and had told both myself and the second bus driver about the first bus driver's error - and that as such even if I stated I had spoken to him about the matter he would refuse to verify i was telling the truth. He also smirked when I started stammering and having an anxiety attack at his refusal.

So.... was his first point true, and was he being unreasonable about the second point?

=edit=

Worth also noting i have had a similar issue with the same individual a few months ago, when a ticket machine broke down having printed half of our tickets and (despite acknowledging he could see the machine was frozen, and the fact I had a video on my phone of the machine going from a "printing" message to an "out of order" message) he refused to write anything to show the train guard as evidence we had spoken to him when buying new discounted tickets on the train. Fortunately the train guard in this case was happy to believe the video evidence and hence still gave us railcard discount.

If your journey had to be abandoned and you returned to your starting point you should have been offered a full refund (on the spot if that is where you bought the ticket). All ticket office staff are supposed to know this!

NRCoT 30.1. If the train you intended to use is cancelled, delayed, or your reservation will not be honoured, and you decide not to travel, you may return the unused Ticket to the original retailer or Train Company from whom it was purchased, where you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged.
This Condition applies to all Tickets, including Tickets (such as advance Tickets) that are otherwise non-refundable, and also applies if you have begun your journey but are unable to complete it due to delay or cancellations and return to your point of origin.

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furlong said:

If your journey had to be abandoned and you returned to your starting point you should have been offered a full refund (on the spot if that is where you bought the ticket). All ticket office staff are supposed to know this!

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Our initial point of departure was Newcastle - we are back now so will make our way to the train station again and see if we have more luck with ticket office staff there.

furlong said:

If your journey had to be abandoned and you returned to your starting point you should have been offered a full refund (on the spot if that is where you bought the ticket). All ticket office staff are supposed to know this!

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As much as the above appears to stand regards refunds, as far as the ticket staff were concerned, you started your journey and left the station. They saw you again later but wouldn't have known for sure what had happened. They probably took the view that because you'd used your ticket, for the part of the journey you'd taken, it would be better to go through delay repay. And this can often be quicker anyway. A two hour delay would result in the full money back on a return anyway so basically a refund, and often processed quicker than if the ticket office had to ask you to fill in a full refund form, check it, stamp it, post it, and then you have to be contacted by head office for your card number later.
A refund within the first twnety minutes or if you hadn't left the station could probably be made on the spot. But when it's much later, often tickets have to be sent off to accounts and it can take up to a few weeks.

It looks like they probably just thought it was the simpilist, most efficient way of pointing you and would have resulted in the same outcone, probably quicker with less process and explaination paper wise from both of you.

Regards not giving their name, staff will usually decline giving their full name unless they choose to off their own back, and this is fine and understandable. There have been staff who've had their full names noted from their full staff IDs before, when they've optionally worn them, and have had accusations or hate directed towards them on social media, giving their full name and location. Which I'm sure you will understand is less than fair or secure. Usually staff would give their first name, which is on their badge anyway, and is nearly always enough for the train company to know who it was you spoke to.

As for the smirk this is very unfortunate and maybe the staff came across the wrong way but may have felt vulenrable when you asked for their (full?) name as it often makes your heart race when someone asks your full name and wants to note it to hold you to account with head office over something later when you consider they could say or acuse you of anything.
They probably didn't mean anything by it, may not have known they had done it, or were doing it because computer said no or something, or because the disruption of the day was an annoyance to them, or their mind was on something else. It's impossible to know, or prove, if they wernt rude and did their job pretty much properly? If we tried to hold everyone accountable for a frown, smile or smirk then the whole country would be guilty at some time and even staff can feel the pressure sometimes especially when there's disruption and the public are stressed.

One final thought, if every passenger who passed through that station that day who was affected by the disruption queued up for a refund, the station would probably grind to a halt. Directing customers who started their journey by rail to delay repay was probably going to be the most efficient way of dealing with things for both you, them, and fellow customers.

pt_mad said:

Usually staff would give their first name, which is on their badge anyway, and is nearly always enough for the train company to know who it was you spoke to.

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I asked for "first name or badge number" as far as I recall as I alluded above I suffer from anxiety and ASD so I'm still a little flustered and can't be more precise.

It was the point-blank refusal of even that which set off my stammering (and the realisation it was the same individual i had encountered some months ago, as noted in my edit) - tbh I took the actual delays in my stride!!

TeaLovingDave said:

I asked for "first name or badge number" as far as I recall as I alluded above I suffer from anxiety and ASD so I'm still a little flustered and can't be more precise.

It was the point-blank refusal of even that which set off my stammering (and the realisation it was the same individual i had encountered some months ago, as noted in my edit) - tbh I took the actual delays in my stride!!

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In that case I'm not sure about the name, as usually staff wear a first name badge. Could have been it was on their coat or jumper, and they'd taken it off. Sometimes the case, and sometimes people forget. Happens. They may not even have known that they weren't wearing it. If you thought you had it on and someone asked your name, it might take you by surprise and you may think they were being awkward or wanted to say somwtsome about you later which, as I say, can make front line staff feel vulnerable. That being said your first name only is usually displayed on your name badge.

Sometimes staff can really get it in the neck, and none of the disruption on the line was their fault, they're just the face of the railway at that time. They could have an afternoon full of abuse and were feeling the pressure a little. Hopefully they didn't mean anything by it and just came across the wrong way without meaning to.

You could complain but whether that would be fair is up to you. It appears they gave advice that was fair and wasn't wrong and was going to lead to your money back pretty efficiently. They wernt rude in what they said. And a facial expression is going to be impossible to verify one way or the other.
If you do complain then it's likely the member of staff will be shown your complaint so they can make a reply to the management.

pt_mad said:

In that case I'm not sure about the name, as usually staff wear a first name badge. Could have been it was on their coat or jumper, and they'd taken it off. Sometimes the case, and sometimes people forget. Happens. They may not even have known that they weren't wearing it. If you thought you had it on and someone asked your name, it might take you by surprise and you may think they were being awkward or wanted to say somwtsome about you later which, as I say, can make front line staff feel vulnerable. That being said your first name only is usually displayed on your name badge.

Sometimes staff can really get it in the neck, and none of the disruption on the line was their fault, they're just the face of the railway at that time. They could have an afternoon full of abuse and were feeling the pressure a little. Hopefully they didn't mean anything by it and just came across the wrong way without meaning to.

You could complain but whether that would be fair is up to you. It appears they gave advice that was fair and wasn't wrong and was going to lead to your money back pretty efficiently. They wernt rude in what they said. And a facial expression is going to be impossible to verify one way or the other. If you plan to go back there and make a direct complaints about a smirk and are happy to be served by then again that's your choice and your right.

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Bad day or not you still have to do your job politely and properly. And at the End of the day the member of staff was being unhelpful by all accounts.

pt_mad said:

You could complain but whether that would be fair is up to you. It appears they gave advice that was fair and wasn't wrong and was going to lead to your money back pretty efficiently. They wernt rude in what they said. And a facial expression is going to be impossible to verify one way or the other.
If you do complain then it's likely the member of staff will be shown your complaint so they can make a reply to the management.

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The advice was wrong.

221129 said:

Bad day or not you still have to do your job politely and properly. And at the End of the day the member of staff was being unhelpful by all accounts.

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But it read like they were polite? They pointed to delay repay which seemed totally reasonable under the circumstances, that the customer had left the station and started their journey. Events after that regards travel couldn't be verified by the ticket clerk due to busses being involved so pointed to delay repay. Totally correct surely? Refund would almost certainly mean sending tickets to accounts, with a longer form being filled in by passenger and staff than the delay repay one. And even then payment can't be made until accounts contact customer for their card no's. During storm Ali all website advice was pointing to all customers going through delay repay for refunds. And that was trees down etc. It's how the train operators seem to want people to claim as presumably is the most efficient.

How can anyone prove a smirk it's all a matter of opinion of the acuser and the person being acused? And then you'd have to prove what they were smirking about. Their walkie talkie could have given a message in the background and they heard something and smirked? Try proving that? It'd just result in mud being thrown at the member of staff with no way of proving or disproving their facial expression unless the staff member agreed they did indeed smirk at the person maliciously.

How did the OP think he was going to be able to go back to Newcastle without a ticket? The delay repay form was the right thing to have been offered to the OP he needed his return halfs to get back to his originating point.

Having a trainload of passengers descend on your small station with only you there and maybe some train crew for part of the time can be stressful and you end up "firefighting ground hog day style". People are unfamiliar with your station have an expectation that the bus replCement is already there and then start wandering about in different directions. Your constantly being asked questions so keeping control of them and an eye on them is hard. Then they start wondering off the station looking for the nearest shop etc.

Experience shows that you can tell everyone in sight , search the platforms, check the toilet look up and down the road outside then give the coach driver the thumbs up and several minutes later someone will appear making out they weren't told. One stray person or group chances are they've done something to assist themselves being left behind. Larger groups the chances lessen however I've seen "follow my leader" incidents when waiting passengers just follow people off the station for no reason. I've even seen someone get in the local taxi they've booked to pick them up from the station and take them across town and then have passengers waiting on a bus replacement try and get in the taxi arguing about who was the greater priority. I dare say the booking clerk at Hexham has seen all this too.

It's really quite simple, delayed completed journey = Delay Repay

Delay resulting in a return to origin = Refund

Just a thought but isn't Northern the operator that as part of delay repay offers you your money back or a return anywhere on their network as an alternative?

Depending on the cost of the ticket the alternative can be far more attractive than the refund which has possibly prompted the MOS to go with delay repay as well as it being quicker to process.

221129 said:

It's really quite simple, delayed completed journey = Delay Repay

Delay resulting in a return to origin = Refund

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And when 1000 people queue up at Edinburgh asking for a refund there and then over storm Ali? Hence the Tocs were pointing to delay repay on their websites.

Just imagine that night, no trains leaving Edinburgh on the mainline after about 1600 till end of service. Each train was to carry let's say 300 people. Say 20 percent bought from ticket office. They all want a refund on the spot. Are the ticket office staff and other front line staff unreasonable for directing customers to delay repay on mass?
If this station is a small station then refunds etc are going to be a lesser priority if a train load is stranded. Getting people home will be a priority with due compensation to follow imo.

pt_mad said:

And when 1000 people queue up at Edinburgh asking for a refund there and then over storm Ali? Hence the Tocs were pointing to delay repay on their websites.

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Not sure how a one off scenario affects this incident tbh....

Gareth Marston said:

How did the OP think he was going to be able to go back to Newcastle without a ticket? The delay repay form was the right thing to have been offered to the OP he needed his return halfs to get back to his originating point.

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This point is worth repeating, as it justifies the action suggested by the staff, retrospectively or otherwise, and the point is made by someone with ticket office experience.

Whether the member of staff did a good enough job of communicating that to you is another matter. If you feel that it should have been done better, you may want to put it to the company in writing.

I’ve been accused of smirking. I absolutely was not.

My name badge has my first name on it. No surname or badge number.

krus_aragon said:

This point is worth repeating, as it justifies the action suggested by the staff, retrospectively or otherwise, and the point is made by someone with ticket office experience.

Whether the member of staff did a good enough job of communicating that to you is another matter. If you feel that it should have been done better, you may want to put it to the company in writing.

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Imagine if the OP had been met by revenue protection at Newcastle "the man at Hexham refunded my tickets" would probably have been met with no sympathy at all.....

The alleged attitude/ body language is another thing.

Gareth Marston said:

Imagine if the OP had been met by revenue protection at Newcastle "the man at Hexham refunded my tickets" would probably have been met with no sympathy at all.....

The alleged attitude/ body language is another thing.

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Correction the OP wanted the clerk at Hexham to refund the Newcastle to Haltwhistles and buy Newcastle to Haydon Bridge so would have had ticket back to Newcastle. However the delay repay is correct as the price difference is small and if the OP had duo non existent the compensation will be more advantageous to the OP.

221129 said:

Not sure how a one off scenario affects this incident tbh....

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Refunds (not Delay Repay) on tickets bought from ticket offices or machines at station can easily be processed through customer relations if for some reason they can't be done at the station e.g. if the queue is too long or if the ticket office is closed.

It's simply not a problem. Delay Repay in the circumstances as described by the OP is wrong. They should be paid a refund of the full ticket price by whomever sold the tickets, and that's that.

The Northern staff member in the ticket office was correct not to refund the original ticket (which was presumably bought from LNER?) and sell replacement tickets. This would have left the customer considerably out of pocket compared to what they were entitled.

However they were incorrect to state Delay Repay was the solution. They should have calmly and professionally explained that the customer was entitled to a full refund of the original tickets. They should have established who they were bought from (e.g. LNER) and advised the customer accordingly.

It sounds like a conversation occurred between two people who both did not know what the correct action was. Without being there, I do not know if either, neither or both of the parties was unreasonable. I have witnessed Northern passengers acting unreasonably and/or incorrectly and I have also witnessed Northern staff acting unreasonably and/or incorrectly, both on numerous occasions, so I will keep an open mind.

Finally, this thread belongs in one of three places: Fares Policy, Disputes or Trip Reports. There is a case for any of these three but it's not correct in UK Railway Discussion so I am moving it now.

I used Northern trains on Saturday ticket office reminded me it was strike day if I still wanted the return ticket. Asked him what situation was with last train if it was cancelled would there be buses? No we don't have to provide buses today different rules with a strike. But the last train is transpenine today won't they have a duty of care too get ppl home? Blank look on face, had a think about it 'I can't help you with transpenine I work for Northern. Thought it was a load of rubbish, checked northern website quite clearly saying today you can use your train ticket on arriva and tiger buses too help you get home. Would of hoped staff would of been briefed on this. Four ppl I talked to on bus home where unaware of this and bought a single for the train and a single for the bus

yorkie said:

Finally, this thread belongs in one of three places: Fares Policy, Disputes or Trip Reports. There is a case for any of these three but it's not correct in UK Railway Discussion so I am moving it now.

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Fair enough given the fact that the thread has turned into a discussion about whether the advice to go for Delay Repay was justified or not - even though this isn't actually the reason I started the thread - it does belong in Fares Policy now! On a related note....

TeaLovingDave said:

Our initial point of departure was Newcastle - we are back now so will make our way to the train station again and see if we have more luck with ticket office staff there.

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I'll have to go for Delay Repay rather than a refund anyhow - in the end I felt too anxious to deal with anyone in person and it will be a bit too late in the morning

pt_mad said:

You could complain but whether that would be fair is up to you. It appears they gave advice that was fair and wasn't wrong and was going to lead to your money back pretty efficiently. They wernt rude in what they said. And a facial expression is going to be impossible to verify one way or the other.

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No, I have no intention of complaining - even though I do personally think he was being rude when (as noted in point 2 of my OP) he said he wouldn't take my word for the fact I had travelled to Haydon Bridge in the first place despite his being the one to ensure I boarded the bus and the second bus driver explicitly said he had picked us up in Haydon Bridge. It was at this point that I started stammering and he smirked, by the by, and not when he initially told me to seek Delay Repay.

Firstly, I'd rather just put today behind me

Secondly, I am fully aware that when I am anxious and/or flustered I can come across rather strange due to my Aspergers - so given what people have said above about how he may have misinterpreted my request for a name or number to cite in my Delay Repay application, I cannot rule out the possibility that I *have* misinterpreted his facial expressions or that he misinterpreted *my* intentions due to how I was putting myself across.

Gareth Marston said:

Experience shows that you can tell everyone in sight , search the platforms, check the toilet look up and down the road outside then give the coach driver the thumbs up

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This is precisely what he *had* done in order to ensure we caught the bus in the first place, which is precisely the reason his aforementioned remarks bothered me so much - he acknowledged that he remembered putting us on the bus, and in the same breath said he only had our word for it that we had actually remained on the bus.

pt_mad said:

If this station is a small station then refunds etc are going to be a lesser priority if a train load is stranded. Getting people home will be a priority with due compensation to follow imo.

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For what is is worth, the stranded people all remained in Haydon Bridge (where hopefully they were dealt with eventually) as myself and my girlfriend were the only two people to return to Hexham when the next RRB arrived.

After that wall of text above replying to people's quotes, I thought I would post this message separately just to summarize the answers to the two issues I originally started this thread to cover, rather than the Delay Repay discussion it turned into....

Point 1 (the refusal to provide a name or badge number) - it sounds like he wasn't strictly telling the truth when he said it was against company regulations to provide this information to passengers whatsoever, but that he may have had reason to obfuscate the truth given what people have said regarding the potential for him to have misinterpreted my intentions, so I suppose this is sufficient justification

Point 2 (the statement that he was loathe to trust my word because he wasn't present for the entire journey, only the start and end of it) - people haven't really covered this one, but again given how I must have seemed stammering and babbling I suppose he just wanted to get the conversation over with certainly people in this thread don't seem to think he was being unreasonable.

In conclusion, I'll be seeking out Delay Repay in the morning and otherwise putting everything down to just a bit of a horrible day to be put behind me. Thanks for the advice and feedback in this matter. As I noted in my OP, I've been lurking on this forum for some time as I find reading railway news and discussion useful and informative given the fact I rely on public transport a lot - so I might as well take this opportunity to actually involve myself in discussions from now on.

TeaLovingDave said:

After that wall of text above replying to people's quotes, I thought I would post this message separately just to summarize the answers to the two issues I originally started this thread to cover, rather than the Delay Repay discussion it turned into....

Point 1 (the refusal to provide a name or badge number) - it sounds like he wasn't strictly telling the truth when he said it was against company regulations to provide this information to passengers whatsoever, but that he may have had reason to obfuscate the truth given what people have said regarding the potential for him to have misinterpreted my intentions, so I suppose this is sufficient justification

Point 2 (the statement that he was loathe to trust my word because he wasn't present for the entire journey, only the start and end of it) - people haven't really covered this one, but again given how I must have seemed stammering and babbling I suppose he just wanted to get the conversation over with certainly people in this thread don't seem to think he was being unreasonable.

In conclusion, I'll be seeking out Delay Repay in the morning and otherwise putting everything down to just a bit of a horrible day to be put behind me. Thanks for the advice and feedback in this matter. As I noted in my OP, I've been lurking on this forum for some time as I find reading railway news and discussion useful and informative given the fact I rely on public transport a lot - so I might as well take this opportunity to actually involve myself in discussions from now on.

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Well that's a good thing to come out of it (that you've decided to post more often), so welcome, and hope you've enjoyed the purely constructive and always friendly debate!

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