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Should the Wales and Borders franchise be branded differently e.g. 'Wales & Borders'?

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Dai Corner

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I was wondering that too... The GDPR is all about data protection and privacy

t.

Ian

The real name of the operator, as oppposed to the brand, has to be used in eg the privacy policy

https://tfwrail.wales/privacy-policy

Your privacy and trust are important to us and this Privacy Notice provides important information about how Keolis Amey Operations/Gweithrediadau Keolis Amey Limited (trading as Transport for Wales Rail Services, and referred to in this Privacy Notice as "Keolis Amey", "we", "us" and "our") treats your personal data. We are committed to keeping your personal data safe and confidential both online and offline.
 
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bussnapperwm

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If they couldn't use Wales and Borders for any reason, they could always brand services as "Valley Lines" and "Wales and West"...
 

Dai Corner

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If they couldn't use Wales and Borders for any reason, they could always brand services as "Valley Lines" and "Wales and West"...

But the only stations they serve in the west of England are Lydney, Gloucester and Cheltenham. 'Wales, West, West Midlands and North West" perhaps?
 

Envoy

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If they couldn't use Wales and Borders for any reason, they could always brand services as "Valley Lines" and "Wales and West"...
The trouble with ‘Valley Lines’ is that when the trains go from Cardiff down to the coast - Penarth, Barry, Llantwit Major etc. - that they are not in the valleys. Another problem could occur with some rilling stock ending up on the main line - as happened when ‘Valley Lines’ was used some years ago. (I saw a Valley Lines branded Pacer at Gloucester).

Regarding ‘Wales & West’: - this was once used by the so called Regional Railways operation in the dying days of British Rail because trains would go say from Pembrokeshire to Penzance. The term ‘West’ usually applies to the West Country - hence the BBC & ITV regions based in Bristol are called ‘West’. OK, I know that we could argue that The Marches are also part of the west of England and part of the area is known as Mercia or even West Mercia. Trouble is that most people don’t even know of these ancient words for these areas (Marches / Mercia). Hence the reason why I suggested ‘Wales & Borders’.

I thought that ‘Transport for Wales’ was the name of the Welsh Government Department responsible for transport in Wales. Perhaps the Labour run Welsh Government - as they call themselves these days - are trying to give the impression that they have re-nationalised the railways in Wales?
 

neontrix

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The whole TfW/TC brand system is really messy to me. How is anyone supposed to know whether they're dealing with TfW Rail/TrC Trenau rather than TfW/TC? And then people are told that KeolisAmey jointly operate the service and can make a profit but that TfW/TC isn't a profit making company, but that TfW/TC is different from the actual rail operating brand with the near identical name TfW Trains/TrC Trenau. I can barely understand it, and probably have it wrong so how they expect the man on the Cardiff Omnibus to understand is beyond me. The whole exercise was to increase accountability and local control, no? Also the whole Transport for X style just makes everything sounds clumsy, especially when it doesn't match the welsh transition.
 

pemma

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Surely the name "Wales & Borders" would be more accurate, descriptive and more inclusive? I can't think of any reasons why it shouldn't be called this, but if you can think of any, feel free to post them...

Indeed. In some cases writing a more accurate name might make the brand name too long but Wales & Borders is a suitable length for a brand name. I also think Wales & West wouldn't be inappropriate, while the last time that was used the 'West' part meant West Country, it could just as easily mean West Midlands and North West. On the other hand re-naming TPE to allow for the fact they now operate some Scottish services via the WCML and some local services would make a very lengthy name!
 

bussnapperwm

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Indeed. In some cases writing a more accurate name might make the brand name too long but Wales & Borders is a suitable length for a brand name. I also think Wales & West wouldn't be inappropriate, while the last time that was used the 'West' part meant West Country, it could just as easily mean West Midlands and North West. On the other hand re-naming TPE to allow for the fact they now operate some Scottish services via the WCML and some local services would make a very lengthy name!

Easy for TPE...could call it Anglo Scottish Railways
 

WelshBluebird

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I am a bit confused about why people don't like Transport for Wales because some services run in England, but were happy with Arriva Trains Wales!
Though I do agree with those who mention the confusion between TfW (the non profit, Welsh Government owned company) and TfW Rail (who are branding themselves as TfW, but are KeolisAmey, the profit making franchise owner).
 

pemma

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I am a bit confused about why people don't like Transport for Wales because some services run in England, but were happy with Arriva Trains Wales!

I don't think anyone in England was particularly happy with the name Arriva Trains Wales more that they find Welsh government branding being put all over English stations much worse. Arriva Trains Wales also sounded a bit like the Welsh division of a British train company.
 

rf_ioliver

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The real name of the operator, as oppposed to the brand, has to be used in eg the privacy policy

https://tfwrail.wales/privacy-policy

Section I outlines clearly who the controller is which is sufficient for compliance

Keolis Amey Operations/Gweithrediadau Keolis Amey Limited (trading as Transport for Wales Rail Services) is registered in England and Wales under Company Number 11389531 and our Registered Office is Keolis (UK) Limited, Evergreen Building North, 160 Euston Road, London, NW1 2DX.

We are a "controller" for the purposes of the General Data Protection Regulation 2016/679 ("GDPR").
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Like several posts above, I would prefer "Wales & Borders" as it would appear to satisfy everybody in the franchise area.

On a side note and if it was not for the Chester - Holyhead/Llandudno/Blaenau Ffestiniog lines (those were eventually to become part of the London & North Western Railway), how about "Great Western Wales" or "Wales Great Western" being as a lot of the existing lines eventually became part of the Great Western Railway?
 

tiptoptaff

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Like several posts above, I would prefer "Wales & Borders" as it would appear to satisfy everybody in the franchise area.

On a side note and if it was not for the Chester - Holyhead/Llandudno/Blaenau Ffestiniog lines (those were eventually to become part of the London & North Western Railway), how about "Great Western Wales" or "Wales Great Western" being as a lot of the existing lines eventually became part of the Great Western Railway?

With the Greater Western franchise brand name being Great Western Railway, both of those would simply sound like the Welsh bits of the GW franchise, rather than the standalone W&B
 

CambrianCoast

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I was wondering that too... The GDPR is all about data protection and privacy

t.

Ian

Yes I know what GDPR is thanks. TfW Rail has the facility to create user accounts to buy tickets and sign up for newsletters, and will probably have migrated a load of data from ATW so they have to be clear as to the company name dealing with customer data. It’s the law. So the point is from a GDPR perspective, the various names bounding around customers who aren’t industry aware online isn’t clear.
 

rf_ioliver

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Yes I know what GDPR is thanks. TfW Rail has the facility to create user accounts to buy tickets and sign up for newsletters, and will probably have migrated a load of data from ATW so they have to be clear as to the company name dealing with customer data. It’s the law. So the point is from a GDPR perspective, the various names bounding around customers who aren’t industry aware online isn’t clear.

The account sign-up page has a clear link to the privacy policy, and the policy itself clearly identifies the controller - Keolis - and the name under which they are trading: "Transport for Wales Rail Services". From a GDPR perspective at least that part is fine.

As for their internal procedures for handling data, I have no idea and couldn't comment on without a proper audit being done. Whether ATW have migrated data to Keolis is another matter altogether and if this has happened without sufficient notice to customers then that certainly would be a potential GDPR violation.

Ian
 

Envoy

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The Government of Wales Act 2006/Railways Act 2005 (Page 36) states:>
Welsh Ministers shall ensure that the Brand Guidelines developed with and issued to the Franchisee on trains, stations and for marketing material and publicity (excluding that for Wales-only services), shall recognise and demonstrate the cross-border nature of the Franchise and continue to comply with any licensing requirements regarding the use of trademarks licensed by the Secretary of State to Welsh Ministers.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...le/737916/180531-ageny-agreement-number-3.pdf

So, by calling it ‘Transport for Wales’, the Welsh Government are not complying with the Act.
 

bramling

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On balance, I do feel Wales and Borders would have been a stronger name for services. This messy jumble-sale of brand identities between KeolisAmey Operations, Transport for Wales Services and Transport for Wales is a great example of poor marketing strategy, making clarity of message and a unified approach look chaotic and counterintuitive. Does anyone know whether the operational name “Wales and Borders” is possibly still attached to National Express, which maybe could explain why it’s not used commercially?

Agreed. Personally I'd go for "Wales & Borders Railway" which totally sums up what the operation is.

Transport for Wales just doesn't sit well, doesn't readily identify as a provider of rail services, as well as having some political issues for those parts of the franchise sitting in England.

I suspect this may be something which naturally changes over time when sense dawns.
 

krus_aragon

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I don't think it'll be serving anywhere apart from Wales soon
Well, Wales and the Borders. :)

Plus there may be services to Bristol in the medium-term: bidders were specifically stopped from including it in their plans because there's no capacity until the re-quadrupling of the line on the English side is finished: there may be a revival of the Swansea-Bristol stopper idea in the future...
 

pt_mad

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By branding at least three major ish English stations 'transport for Wales', people could think 'why is it transport for Wales rather than for England as well? If they don't understand the corporate structure and live on the English side, they may think the stations are just called Transport for Wales because their focus is only on serving Wales from the station. When the reality is plenty for English only services run out of these stations without going into Wales.

I suppose it'd be like if Eurostar had its branding changed to Transport for France, and then they decided to rebrand the whole of St Pancras, including Southeastern platforms 'Transport for France' (yes I know Pancras is NWR, it's just an example). It just wouldn't make sense only representing the sister countrys' stake in the stations without acknowledging they are in fact running other services exclusively in England and not all passengers will be crossing the border.

Unfortunately I suspect it may be too late to reverse this decision and these stations will have to wear his branding, as it seems this decision has already been made.
 
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Cambrian359

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That be the case, will they be transferring management of Shrewsbury, Hereford and Chester to one of the English Tocs?
This has been repeatedly questioned in various topics about transferring English stations out of the welsh franchise however no one as of yet has provided proof that this is stated in the franchise agreement.

It’s worth noting for people who may be concerned about TfW not caring as much about English stations/routes that the DEpartment for transport have put a clause in the welsh franchise preventing them from making improvements to existing English services/routes such as Manchester,Birmingham etc ......more specifically frequency improvements being the biggy!
 

pt_mad

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This has been repeatedly questioned in various topics about transferring English stations out of the welsh franchise however no one as of yet has provided proof that this is stated in the franchise agreement.

It’s worth noting for people who may be concerned about TfW not caring as much about English stations/routes that the DEpartment for transport have put a clause in the welsh franchise preventing them from making improvements to existing English services/routes such as Manchester,Birmingham etc ......more specifically frequency improvements being the biggy!

It's not that anyone is necessary suggesting the franchise won't care about English services or passengers. It's more that their franchise name when used on stations in England could be interpreted as suggesting that the station management are Wales focused and are 'for Wales' i.e. aimed at customers for Wales rather than English routes.

It's not that there's any reason why this would actually be the case, but they are using a brand name which some might think makes this suggestion all by itself when it's eventually under station names at Chester, Hereford and Shrewsbury.
 

Dai Corner

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It's not that anyone is necessary suggesting the franchise won't care about English services or passengers. It's more that their franchise name when used on stations in England could be interpreted as suggesting that the station management are Wales focused and are 'for Wales' i.e. aimed at customers for Wales rather than English routes.

It's not that there's any reason why this would actually be the case, but they are using a brand name which some might think makes this suggestion all by itself when it's eventually under station names at Chester, Hereford and Shrewsbury.

And the document cited by Envoy and myself suggests that TfW should be using a branding that 'recognises and demonstrates the cross-border nature of the Franchise'. I'd say they aren't.

Does anyone living in the borders part of the area feel like writing to their MP and asking him/her to raise the matter with the Transport Secretary?
 

pt_mad

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And the document cited by Envoy and myself suggests that TfW should be using a branding that 'recognises and demonstrates the cross-border nature of the Franchise'. I'd say they aren't.

Does anyone living in the borders part of the area feel like writing to their MP and asking him/her to raise the matter with the Transport Secretary?

Taking that into consideration, how have they managed to get this name agreed by the DFT? They must have had agreement to get it to day two of the operation and be using it?
 

DarloRich

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Christ this seems complicated - cant we just have one over arching banner such as WelshRail or Welsh Trains/Trenau Cymraeg?
?
 

Dai Corner

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Taking that into consideration, how have they managed to get this name agreed by the DFT? They must have had agreement to get it to day two of the operation and be using it?

I don't know whether they have got it agreed or ignored it.
 

Gareth Marston

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This has been repeatedly questioned in various topics about transferring English stations out of the welsh franchise however no one as of yet has provided proof that this is stated in the franchise agreement.

It’s worth noting for people who may be concerned about TfW not caring as much about English stations/routes that the DEpartment for transport have put a clause in the welsh franchise preventing them from making improvements to existing English services/routes such as Manchester,Birmingham etc ......more specifically frequency improvements being the biggy!

This is more to do with DfT agreeing to frequency increases on the Chester to Manchester via Warrington and Shrewsbury to Birmingham corridor in the Northern and West Midlands franchises. Paths are already taken.
 

pt_mad

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I don't know whether they have got it agreed or ignored it.

They must have had surely? You're not going to get a franchise launched and on day two using that brand name without the DFT being fully aware of the name you were going to use beforehand.
 
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