Jodie Whittaker as Dr Who

Journeyman · 15 Oct 2018

I'm really liking Jodie's Doctor so far. I have no issues whatsoever with the Doctor being a woman, and it seems perfectly within reason to do it to me.

I suspect there might be some adverse reaction if the role goes back to a man in future!

RailUK Forums

DynamicSpirit · 15 Oct 2018

WelshBluebird said:
Well apart from the fact the Doctor is a character who "changes" into a new person upon death, so the character suddenly turning female isn't exactly that difficult to believe!

Yes and no. The storyline problem there is that, prior to Jody Whitaker, we had seen at least 16 Timelord regenerations: 12 The Doctor, 1 Romana, 3 The Master. Of those 16, only one of those (the Master) involved a gender change. Whatever fictional science you want to attach to regenerations, that gives a pretty strong indication that in the Dr. Who Universe, changing gender at regeneration is not a very frequent occurrence. That could have given some argument in terms of continuity for the Doctor having been male. Though interestingly, it equally gives some argument that, now that the Doctor is female, she needs to stay female over several regenerations to keep continuity of the science. On the other hand, I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to come up with some pseudo-science to justify why the Doctor and the Master both suddenly started being able to change genders when they couldn't before. Maybe, something to do with them having both exceeded their normal natural regeneration counts?

Having said that, if you look at it not in terms of storyline continuity but in terms of role models and the wider impact of Dr Who on society, then the arguments for a female Doctor seem to me pretty overwhelming.

jellybaby · 15 Oct 2018

DynamicSpirit said:
Whatever fictional science you want to attach to regenerations, that gives a pretty strong indication that in the Dr. Who Universe, changing gender at regeneration is not a very frequent occurrence.

Not really. You could throw a fair coin 11 times and get heads each time but that doesn't say anything about what is going to happen next time. It might be unusual but we don't have many reference Gallifreyans to compare with and The Doctor might be unusual by Gallifreyan standards anyway.

DynamicSpirit · 15 Oct 2018

jellybaby said:
Not really. You could throw a fair coin 11 times and get heads each time but that doesn't say anything about what is going to happen next time. It might be unusual but we don't have many reference Gallifreyans to compare with and The Doctor might be unusual by Gallifreyan standards anyway.

If a coin was fair, the chances of getting 11 heads in succession would be 1 in 2048: Extremely unlikely. If you threw a coin 11 times and got heads every time, and that was the only knowledge you had of the coin, then any reasonable scientist or mathematician is going to conclude that the most reasonable working hypothesis is that the coin is probably not fair. In this case, we're not talking 11 heads in succession, we're talking 16 throws and only 1 tail, which makes the chances even smaller (if my calculations are correct, 1 in 3855 to get no more than one tail).

jellybaby · 15 Oct 2018

DynamicSpirit said:
If a coin was fair, the chances of getting 11 heads in succession would be 1 in 2048: Extremely unlikely.

Fairly likely compared to some of the fortunate events that have saved the day in umpteen episodes.

DynamicSpirit said:
we're talking 16 throws and only 1 tail

I'm not an expert but I thought there had been two gender switches (the current Doctor and the Master)?

DynamicSpirit · 15 Oct 2018

jellybaby said:
I'm not an expert but I thought there had been two gender switches (the current Doctor and the Master)?

We're talking about the probability of getting a gender switch at Peter Capaldi's regeneration, given all the information about gender switches we've had up to that point. So for those calculations, you can't include that last gender switch

The only gender switch that's relevant to that calculation is the Master-Missy one.

gswindale · 15 Oct 2018

I seem to recall that there was a scene (possibly in the 50th anniversary special) where a "random" timelord changed gender whilst regenerating (although I could be imagining things)? Would need to go back and watch it again.

Ambient Sheep · 15 Oct 2018

gswindale said:
I seem to recall that there was a scene (possibly in the 50th anniversary special) where a "random" timelord changed gender whilst regenerating (although I could be imagining things)? Would need to go back and watch it again.

Yes there was, you just beat me to it! It was actually in the Series 9 closer, "Hell Bent". However it was far from the first reference to it (Missy aside), as this rather nice summary (that Google just found for me while I was checking which episode it was) lists:

https://www.doctorwho.tv/news/?article=the-changing-genders-in-and-of-doctor-who

Turns out that apart from Missy and the Timelord in "Hell Bent", there'd been at least three previous on-screen verbal references to Timelords changing sex at regeneration time.

FWIW I think Jodie Whittaker is excellent and has nailed being The Doctor, however I'm concerned that she might end up being let down by Chris Chibnall's rather wooden writing. The first episode was pretty good (although marred for me by the seemimgly-pointless death of the rather endearing Nan) but the second one dragged awfully after the first twenty minutes or so.

102 fan · 15 Oct 2018

WelshBluebird said:
Well apart from the fact the Doctor is a character who "changes" into a new person upon death, so the character suddenly turning female isn't exactly that difficult to believe!

And yet you haven't been able to actually say why apart from just saying the doctor has always been male, in which case I refer you to the above - the doctor is a character who changes upon death.

And this is the problem. I now have to explain why I have preferences?
The Doctor was male from 1963 until last year, that's 55 years in one sex, and no mention of gender change until very recently. We've never seen a Time Lord regenerate into a non humanoid form, but what's stopping that? Nothing, as he can go 50 odd years with one gender without any reference to the ability to change it. Not one reference in any classic Who after regeneration of still being male.

I fully expect the sexist tag next, that's usually the next stage.

jellybaby · 15 Oct 2018

102 fan said:
We've never seen a Time Lord regenerate into a non humanoid form, but what's stopping that?

Availability of non humanoid actors.

102 fan · 15 Oct 2018

Ambient Sheep said:
Yes there was, you just beat me to it! It was actually in the Series 9 closer, "Hell Bent". However it was far from the first reference to it (Missy aside), as this rather nice summary (that Google just found for me while I was checking which episode it was) lists:

https://www.doctorwho.tv/news/?article=the-changing-genders-in-and-of-doctor-who

Turns out that apart from Missy and the Timelord in "Hell Bent", there'd been at least three previous on-screen verbal references to Timelords changing sex at regeneration time.

FWIW I think Jodie Whittaker is excellent and has nailed being The Doctor, however I'm concerned that she might end up being let down by Chris Chibnall's rather wooden writing. The first episode was pretty good (although marred for me by the seemimgly-pointless death of the rather endearing Nan) but the second one dragged awfully after the first twenty minutes or so.

All references to gender are at the end of nu-who. And let's put this idea that Newman was correct in wishing it. He was also against the Daleks, which made the show. From his Wikipedia entry.
' Even Newman clashed with her on occasion, however, particularly over the inclusion of the alien Dalek creatures on the programme.[33]Newman had not wanted any "bug-eyed monsters" in the show,[34] but he was placated when the creatures became a great success.'.

102 fan · 15 Oct 2018

jellybaby said:
Availability of non humanoid actors.

It must have been a bugger in Jurassic Park that there weren't real dinosaurs to use.

IanD · 15 Oct 2018

Ambient Sheep said:
FWIW I think Jodie Whittaker is excellent and has nailed being The Doctor, however I'm concerned that she might end up being let down by Chris Chibnall's rather wooden writing. The first episode was pretty good (although marred for me by the seemimgly-pointless death of the rather endearing Nan) but the second one dragged awfully after the first twenty minutes or so.

Chris Chibnal's rather wooden writing in Broadchurch doesn't seem to have hurt her.

Ambient Sheep · 16 Oct 2018

IanD said:
Chris Chibnal's rather wooden writing in Broadchurch doesn't seem to have hurt her.

Indeed. I didn't put that very well. Perhaps it would have been better to say that "...the show might end up being let down..." or "...her tenure as The Doctor might end up being let down..."

jellybaby · 16 Oct 2018

102 fan said:
It must have been a bugger in Jurassic Park that there weren't real dinosaurs to use.

Jurassic Park has a bigger budget. Actors dressed up a bit are cheaper than computer generated characters.

102 fan · 16 Oct 2018

jellybaby said:
Jurassic Park has a bigger budget. Actors dressed up a bit are cheaper than computer generated characters.

Will there be no CGI aliens in this series?

DarloRich · 16 Oct 2018

could the collective body here be over thinking this?

jellybaby · 16 Oct 2018

102 fan said:
Will there be no CGI aliens in this series?

Not ones which have as much screen time as The Doctor.

GrimShady · 20 Oct 2018

Journeyman said:
I'm really liking Jodie's Doctor so far. I have no issues whatsoever with the Doctor being a woman, and it seems perfectly within reason to do it to me.

I suspect there might be some adverse reaction if the role goes back to a man in future!

Can't say I'm for gender swapping roles at all, however I will make an exception for Jodie

IMO Edris Elba should have been the next Doctor.

Butts · 22 Oct 2018

With regard to Saturday's episode I thought it was quite brave to tackle a subject regarding the subjugation of non-Caucasians in 1940's/50's America.

However this somewhat progressive story line faltered in one major aspect regarding historical accuracy.

Namely the absence of anyone smoking or any associated paraphernalia depicted within it's confines.

Is it a sad state of affairs when a serious subject is given airtime but the makers feel unable to portray a normal social activity from the era ?

Yes, there would have been people smoking on the bus, in the cafe, in the Pool Hall and on the streets. Martin Luther King was also a chain smoker.

Perhaps this was an America from a parallel Universe ?

DynamicSpirit · 22 Oct 2018

I have to say I was much more impressed with last night's episode than the previous ones. An amazingly good story, and quite emotional in places. A few niggly plot issues, and there's still a lack of distinct characterization of the three companions, but a much better overall plot.

Butts said:
However this somewhat progressive story line faltered in one major aspect regarding historical accuracy.

Namely the absence of anyone smoking or any associated paraphernalia depicted within it's confines.

Is it a sad state of affairs when a serious subject is given airtime but the makers feel unable to portray a normal social activity from the era ?

It's an interesting point. Yes, that was a significant historical inaccuracy. I can see why they probably chose to have no smoking (social responsibility and all that, plus, would all the actors even have agreed to being exposed to smoke?), but it was inaccurate.

Butts said:
Perhaps this was an America from a parallel Universe ?

Presumably, this would be the parallel universe in which the Earth has been invaded by cybermen several times, highly intelligent silurians and sea devils occupied Earth before man came along, Australia was ruled by a ruthless dictator, and the entire centre of London got evacuated 40 or so years ago because of dinosaurs roaming around (just 10 years after the underground was disrupted by yeti). Maybe there isn't much smoking in that parallel universe

(has anyone ever smoked on Dr Who?)

Butts · 23 Oct 2018

DynamicSpirit said:
I have to say I was much more impressed with last night's episode than the previous ones. An amazingly good story, and quite emotional in places. A few niggly plot issues, and there's still a lack of distinct characterization of the three companions, but a much better overall plot.

It's an interesting point. Yes, that was a significant historical inaccuracy. I can see why they probably chose to have no smoking (social responsibility and all that, plus, would all the actors even have agreed to being exposed to smoke?), but it was inaccurate.

Presumably, this would be the parallel universe in which the Earth has been invaded by cybermen several times, highly intelligent silurians and sea devils occupied Earth before man came along, Australia was ruled by a ruthless dictator, and the entire centre of London got evacuated 40 or so years ago because of dinosaurs roaming around (just 10 years after the underground was disrupted by yeti). Maybe there isn't much smoking in that parallel universe (has anyone ever smoked on Dr Who?)

Plenty of modern day productions feature smoking on both TV and in the Movies which I feel rather negates your first point. I think they probably use herbal Cigarettes.

Has anyone ever smoked in Dr Who ?

Most repugnant to your modern day sensibilites, if you delve a little you can discover that one of the Doctor's has been featured smoking in the show !!

Agree that this episode was the best so far of the new genre.

underbank · 23 Oct 2018

DynamicSpirit said:
I can see why they probably chose to have no smoking (social responsibility and all that, plus, would all the actors even have agreed to being exposed to smoke?), but it was inaccurate.

If they're trying to depict real events in a realistic manner, they can't pick and choose which "realisms" they choose to use. It's either realistic or it isn't. As for actors smoking, they could just use artificial/non tobacco cigarettes and artificial smoke - after all, all they need to show is the "fog", you don't need the smell on TV!

gswindale · 23 Oct 2018

To be perfectly honest, I hadn't even noticed that nobody was smoking!

Maybe I'm too young...

I don't really think that the lack of smoke detracted from the storyline itself - although based on reality, I'm sure that "Banksy" was not really there when Rosa Parks got arrested.

61653 HTAFC · 27 Oct 2018

Can I be the 27th person to point out that this thread should be "Jodie Whittaker as The Doctor"?

The show is called Doctor Who, but the lead character isn't.

martin2345uk · 27 Oct 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Can I be the 27th person to point out that this thread should be "Jodie Whittaker as The Doctor"?

The show is called Doctor Who, but the lead character isn't.

He was in the credits for a good few years back in the 60s!

martin2345uk · 27 Oct 2018

Edit: image shows end credits from episode 1 with William Hartnell as “Dr Who”.

Skymonster · 27 Oct 2018

Personally I'm getting a bit fed up with all the behavioural messaging going in the new series. First episode it was about the dangers of getting onto railway tracks and climbing on equipment such as cranes, next it was preaching about how bad guns are, and last week was a pretty overt play on the evils of racism. I appreciate that the main target audience is the [possibly still] impressionable younger generation, but its a bit over the top for my liking an putting me off watching more. One last chance this weekend...

martian boy · 27 Oct 2018

I know people are going to throw the Bible at me, but, has far has I’m concerned, Dr Who has been given away to the feminists. A female Master, now a female Doctor. Jodie Whittaker makes me cringe has Doctor Who. The series has said GOODBYE to me.

61653 HTAFC · 28 Oct 2018

martian boy said:
I know people are going to throw the Bible at me, but, has far has I’m concerned, Dr Who has been given away to the feminists. A female Master, now a female Doctor. Jodie Whittaker makes me cringe has Doctor Who. The series has said GOODBYE to me.

I'm not going to throw a bible at you, as I imagine that would simply reinforce your mediaeval views! They haven't had to retcon the canon to make a female doctor, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Pick on ONE "Shatterer", you pick on us all!

Jodie Whittaker as Dr Who

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