Leeds Station Improvement

edwin_m · 19 Oct 2018

I think they'll have to deck right over the middle part of the station (east of the current bridge) for HS2. If they do this properly it should improve general circulation too.

RailUK Forums

xotGD · 19 Oct 2018

_toommm_ said:
It took me 4 minutes to run from the departure end of 2 to 17 on a Saturday midday so not too too busy. Now I'm 19 and quite fit, so heaven forbid an older person walking with only a 10 minute connection at peak times...

I have a nominal +4 between P17A and P5 in the evening peak. If we arrive on time I can make it, but with a 30 second delay I watch the doors close.

quantinghome · 19 Oct 2018

This is the long term plan for Leeds station:

https://southbankleeds.co.uk/assets...ds-Integrated-Station-Masterplan-LR-v6-DS.pdf

A new deck is indeed planned which will integrate the HS2 extension into the existing station. Let's hope it includes travelators!

matacaster · 19 Oct 2018

Could they build a set of steps or a ramp from the bridge pointing in the direction of platform 17 (ie opposite direction to current Platform 16 steps)? This would likely mean that the new staircase is curved and cantilevered outwards over the abyss and back to Platform 17. T'would avoid the TPE Platform 16 melee and indeed free p some capacity or passengers there as Platform 17 passengers then have separate route.

61653 HTAFC · 19 Oct 2018

matacaster said:
Could they build a set of steps or a ramp from the bridge pointing in the direction of platform 17 (ie opposite direction to current Platform 16 steps)? This would likely mean that the new staircase is curved and cantilevered outwards over the abyss and back to Platform 17. T'would avoid the TPE Platform 16 melee and indeed free p some capacity or passengers there as Platform 17 passengers then have separate route.

I suggested this for all islands a couple of days ago. At present with all staircases on the same side of the bridge, the crowds tend to stay largely on that side. P16/17 would be the hardest one to do this for though, despite being where it's needed most.

On platform 0, the walk from there to 16/17 will be a fair trek, and may require the minimum connection time to be increased. Especially as P0/1 will be used by Harrogate line services which probably have a fair number of people wishing to transfer to Manchester Airport services on P16: probably more than Castleford anyway.

takno · 19 Oct 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
I suggested this for all islands a couple of days ago. At present with all staircases on the same side of the bridge, the crowds tend to stay largely on that side. P16/17 would be the hardest one to do this for though, despite being where it's needed most.

On platform 0, the walk from there to 16/17 will be a fair trek, and may require the minimum connection time to be increased. Especially as P0/1 will be used by Harrogate line services which probably have a fair number of people wishing to transfer to Manchester Airport services on P16: probably more than Castleford anyway.

I'm really not sure what you can do about the P16 situation, but in general it seems like the main improvement you could make to Leeds station would be to have the Transpennine trains run long enough and somewhere at least faintly near their allocated time. You have an insane scrum of people on the platform because they got their a couple of mintues before the train was due, which is 15 minutes before it arrived. Once the train is there it has to hang around for another 5 minutes because nobody can figure out if it's the one that's running 5 minutes late or the one that's running 15 late, and they have a ticket for a specific train, or they just can't get on it through overcrowding. There are problems with the structure of the station - the bridge was always too high, some of the platforms too narrow, and so many trains being through services you lose out on level access to platforms, but at the end of the day there isn't a station in the country which is structured to cope with the hopeless service Leeds is provided with.

DarloRich · 19 Oct 2018

I manage to use Leeds station when it is busy. Perhaps if you used London stations on a regular basis you might know what busy is!

Eric said:
Spoke with someone in leeds train station yesterday and platform 0 is taking the top car park. The bottom one will still remain.

So heaven forbid someone arriving onto platform 0 and wanting platform 17 because that will take you at least 10 minutes, maybe longer for not strong walkers like me.

I hope they build a southern bridge with lifts to cater for those unable to walk the ridiculous distances.

_toommm_ said:
It took me 4 minutes to run from the departure end of 2 to 17 on a Saturday midday so not too too busy. Now I'm 19 and quite fit, so heaven forbid an older person walking with only a 10 minute connection at peak times...

lets not build the platform then!

takno said:
I'm really not sure what you can do about the P16 situation, but in general it seems like the main improvement you could make to Leeds station would be to have the Transpennine trains run long enough and somewhere at least faintly near their allocated time. You have an insane scrum of people on the platform because they got their a couple of mintues before the train was due, which is 15 minutes before it arrived. Once the train is there it has to hang around for another 5 minutes because nobody can figure out if it's the one that's running 5 minutes late or the one that's running 15 late, and they have a ticket for a specific train, or they just can't get on it through overcrowding. There are problems with the structure of the station - the bridge was always too high, some of the platforms too narrow, and so many trains being through services you lose out on level access to platforms, but at the end of the day there isn't a station in the country which is structured to cope with the hopeless service Leeds is provided with.

Come and try Euston when a 12 car train arrives into one of the barried platforms at peak. THEN complain about it being busy and a bit of a squeeze! I wish I only had to stand for the distance from Woodlesford to Leeds each morning!

Leeds has a good train service and a large station. It is the12th busiest station in the country above Clapham Junction which seems to me to be MUCH busier and more congested for longer each day than Leeds. Leeds seems to have a very compressed peak.

61653 HTAFC · 19 Oct 2018

takno said:
I'm really not sure what you can do about the P16 situation, but in general it seems like the main improvement you could make to Leeds station would be to have the Transpennine trains run long enough and somewhere at least faintly near their allocated time. You have an insane scrum of people on the platform because they got their a couple of mintues before the train was due, which is 15 minutes before it arrived. Once the train is there it has to hang around for another 5 minutes because nobody can figure out if it's the one that's running 5 minutes late or the one that's running 15 late, and they have a ticket for a specific train, or they just can't get on it through overcrowding. There are problems with the structure of the station - the bridge was always too high, some of the platforms too narrow, and so many trains being through services you lose out on level access to platforms, but at the end of the day there isn't a station in the country which is structured to cope with the hopeless service Leeds is provided with.

Agree that there are issues at LDS which aren't easy to solve, particularly the imbalance of services departing to the North end compared to the South, and the narrow middle island platform. If the North end bridge had been upgraded too (widened, possibly given lifts, and maybe moved slightly South for example) it would take some of the strain off the main bridge. It is ironic that Leeds has some of the longest platforms in the country (albeit split into 3 or even 4) yet so many services run at only 23m or 30m length!

DarloRich · 19 Oct 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Agree that there are issues at LDS which aren't easy to solve, particularly the imbalance of services departing to the North end compared to the South, and the narrow middle island platform. If the North end bridge had been upgraded too (widened, possibly given lifts, and maybe moved slightly South for example) it would take some of the strain off the main bridge. It is ironic that Leeds has some of the longest platforms in the country (albeit split into 3 or even 4) yet so many services run at only 23m or 30m length!

I agree - a better second bridge ( and appropriate entrance if possible) would really help with circulation and spread out the passenger flow.

takno · 19 Oct 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Agree that there are issues at LDS which aren't easy to solve, particularly the imbalance of services departing to the North end compared to the South, and the narrow middle island platform. If the North end bridge had been upgraded too (widened, possibly given lifts, and maybe moved slightly South for example) it would take some of the strain off the main bridge. It is ironic that Leeds has some of the longest platforms in the country (albeit split into 3 or even 4) yet so many services run at only 23m or 30m length!

Definitely agree the north end bridge could do with some more use. In fact adding staircases pointing into the station, and knocking a gateline and route through into the concourse from the end of the steps would probably help - send passengers for York that way and move them off the new bridge.

Apart from the service, the key problem that causes platform crowding as I see it is probably the sheer time it now takes to get from the concourse to the platform. I used to leave the Wetherspoons 3 minutes before departure and make it comfortably. Now with the crowds, the queues at the barrier, the slow slow escalators with people standing on them, and the fight across the bridge it's more like 8, so I'll make it 10 or 10 just to be sure, and there I'll be, 15 minutes before the train actually turns up, experiencing the joys of being kettled against the tatty wall on platform 16.

Mostly I just don't go there anymore

Monkeyhead · 19 Oct 2018

The subway is still there, couldn't be impossible to refurb and re-open could it? The other thing they could do is make an entrance/exit at or around P7 onto New Station Street. That would take some of the conflicting passenger movements away from the barrier line......

rich r · 19 Oct 2018

For platforms 14/15/16/17 there ought to be more promotion of the fact that the South Entrance exists. I use this twice a day and most of the time there's often only two or three people on the escalators at a time. If you're coming from the city centre then the walk along Neville Street and through the Dark Arches to the other entrance can save a lot of time compared to battling through the main barriers and across the bridge.

Eric · 19 Oct 2018

DarloRich said:
I manage to use Leeds station when it is busy. Perhaps if you used London stations on a regular basis you might know what busy is!

lets not build the platform then!

Come and try Euston when a 12 car train arrives into one of the barried platforms at peak. THEN complain about it being busy and a bit of a squeeze! I wish I only had to stand for the distance from Woodlesford to Leeds each morning!

Leeds has a good train service and a large station. It is the12th busiest station in the country above Clapham Junction which seems to me to be MUCH busier and more congested for longer each day than Leeds. Leeds seems to have a very compressed peak.

61653 HTAFC said:
Agree that there are issues at LDS which aren't easy to solve, particularly the imbalance of services departing to the North end compared to the South, and the narrow middle island platform. If the North end bridge had been upgraded too (widened, possibly given lifts, and maybe moved slightly South for example) it would take some of the strain off the main bridge. It is ironic that Leeds has some of the longest platforms in the country (albeit split into 3 or even 4) yet so many services run at only 23m or 30m length!

I’m not saying don’t build the platform. I’m saying that if you stand at the end of platform 0/1 and look across to 17, why can’t they build a new southern bridge to ease the pressure off the main central bridge?

If someone who is 19 and fit can only do the journey in 4 minutes running then it’s going to be over 10 minutes for OAPs like me.

Eric · 19 Oct 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Agree that there are issues at LDS which aren't easy to solve, particularly the imbalance of services departing to the North end compared to the South, and the narrow middle island platform. If the North end bridge had been upgraded too (widened, possibly given lifts, and maybe moved slightly South for example) it would take some of the strain off the main bridge. It is ironic that Leeds has some of the longest platforms in the country (albeit split into 3 or even 4) yet so many services run at only 23m or 30m length!

No platforms at Leeds are spilt into 3 or 4.

DarloRich · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
I’m not saying don’t build the platform. I’m saying that if you stand at the end of platform 0/1 and look across to 17, why can’t they build a new southern bridge to ease the pressure off the main central bridge?

If someone who is 19 and fit can only do the journey in 4 minutes running then it’s going to be over 10 minutes for OAPs like me.

Because despite what many posters think money doesn't grow on trees! Ideal world yes build a new bridge (although it would be of limited use in reducing crowding elsewhere in the station) in the real world you build what you can afford. The cost of the bridge might make the case for the platform uneconomic. I also wonder about engineering access to actually erect the bridge.

I am sure some sort of assistance vehicle can be provided for those unable to walk.

As an aside how do you manage at other large stations?

61653 HTAFC · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
No platforms at Leeds are spilt into 3 or 4.

Not for use by 4 trains at once perhaps, but the existence of platform signs denoting "8d" says otherwise.

Eric · 19 Oct 2018

DarloRich said:
Because despite what many posters think money doesn't grow on trees! Ideal world yes build a new bridge (although it would be of limited use in reducing crowding elsewhere in the station) in the real world you build what you can afford. The cost of the bridge might make the case for the platform uneconomic. I also wonder about engineering access to actually erect the bridge.

I am sure some sort of assistance vehicle can be provided for those unable to walk.

As an aside how do you manage at other large stations?

Leeds is by far and large the worst that I’ve encountered. Manchester Piccadilly has the lifts and airport style conveyabelts to get you to platform 13/14 from the main station.

Birmingham New Street since the redesign is much more accessible.

Leeds is just too big, especially when arriving from Manchester/Huddersfield/York and ending up on platforms 16/15 and needing to get to platforms 1/2/3 for trains to Bradford Forster Square.

Why can’t the TPE services use platforms 7/8/9 instead of the two furthest which also has the highest number of passengers.

It could be configured better than it current is.

Eric · 19 Oct 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
Not for use by 4 trains at once perhaps, but the existence of platform signs denoting "8d" says otherwise.

But that’s still platform eight?

Platform 12 has an A B C D and I’ve only ever seen three trains at once in those spaces. One was a train to Blackpool in 12 D, the middle one was one to Sheffield 12 B and 12 A was a Doncaster.

Lampshade · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
No platforms at Leeds are spilt into 3 or 4.

Platform 9 is split into 3.

Halifaxlad · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
Leeds is just too big, especially when arriving from Manchester/Huddersfield/York and ending up on platforms 16/15 and needing to get to platforms 1/2/3 for trains to Bradford Forster Square.

It could be configured better than it current is.

Don't forget you will within a few years be able to get a fast train from Manchester and possibly Huddersfield to Bradford.

Wholly agree, that it could be better configured I hope this latest redesign addresses it but so far it just looks like a fancy new roof.

quantinghome · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
Why can’t the TPE services use platforms 7/8/9 instead of the two furthest which also has the highest number of passengers.

It could be configured better than it current is.

It's due to the way the western approach tracks to the station are arranged, which running North to South are:

Harrogate line
Airedale line
Bradford Interchange line
Wakefield westgate line (LNER and XC)
Huddersfield line (TP)
Castleford line

Platforms are allocated to minimise conflicting moves at the busy western station approach. If you shift the TP trains to lower platform numbers, they would have to cross the path of all the LNER, XC and many Northern services, which would have been shifted to higher platform numbers. It would ruin the station's capacity.

61653 HTAFC · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
But that’s still platform eight?

Platform 12 has an A B C D and I’ve only ever seen three trains at once in those spaces. One was a train to Blackpool in 12 D, the middle one was one to Sheffield 12 B and 12 A was a Doncaster.

A B C and D = 4 parts. It isn't hard to count that high. :rolleyes:

Iskra · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
Leeds is by far and large the worst that I’ve encountered. Manchester Piccadilly has the lifts and airport style conveyabelts to get you to platform 13/14 from the main station.

Birmingham New Street since the redesign is much more accessible.

Leeds is just too big, especially when arriving from Manchester/Huddersfield/York and ending up on platforms 16/15 and needing to get to platforms 1/2/3 for trains to Bradford Forster Square.

Why can’t the TPE services use platforms 7/8/9 instead of the two furthest which also has the highest number of passengers.

It could be configured better than it current is.

I'm sorry but it's really not far at all.

The only thing I don't like about Leeds station is how everyone is funnelled into a relatively narrow approach to the ticket barriers. Trying to walk against the main flow is a nightmare.

keith1879 · 19 Oct 2018

rich r said:
For platforms 14/15/16/17 there ought to be more promotion of the fact that the South Entrance exists. I use this twice a day and most of the time there's often only two or three people on the escalators at a time. If you're coming from the city centre then the walk along Neville Street and through the Dark Arches to the other entrance can save a lot of time compared to battling through the main barriers and across the bridge.

I find that statement amazing - and I am a regular user of Leeds station (P16) in the rush hour. Where are you starting from ..."The Scarborough Tap"?

61653 HTAFC · 19 Oct 2018

rich r said:
For platforms 14/15/16/17 there ought to be more promotion of the fact that the South Entrance exists. I use this twice a day and most of the time there's often only two or three people on the escalators at a time. If you're coming from the city centre then the walk along Neville Street and through the Dark Arches to the other entrance can save a lot of time compared to battling through the main barriers and across the bridge.

Good point. I keep meaning to try using the South entrance, but whenever I'm there I always forget it exists! It isn't always appropriate due to often needing to buy a ticket from the window by platform 1 (due to overcrowding meaning that the guard can't get through to sell me a ticket!).

edwin_m · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
Why can’t the TPE services use platforms 7/8/9 instead of the two furthest which also has the highest number of passengers.

It could be configured better than it current is.

The useage of the platforms approximately reflects the layout of the junctions to the west, and therefore minimises crossing moves that restrict capacity and may cause any disruption to get worse. The southernmost approach line is via Woodlesford, and all its passenger services terminate in 17. The Huddersfield line is the next, so uses the southernmost through platforms. You then find Bradford Interchange and Wakefield Westgate trains in the middle platforms and those to Harrogate and via Shipley in the low-numbered ones.

yorksrob · 19 Oct 2018

To be fair, I've been using Leeds since the 90's and I don't dislike it.

17 is a ball ache though.

edwin_m · 19 Oct 2018

quantinghome said:
This is the long term plan for Leeds station:

https://southbankleeds.co.uk/assets...ds-Integrated-Station-Masterplan-LR-v6-DS.pdf

A new deck is indeed planned which will integrate the HS2 extension into the existing station. Let's hope it includes travelators!

Among other interesting stuff this says:

Common Concourse – this provides a seamless interchange between the new HS2 and the current Station platforms. This new bridge deck, proposed over the current platforms, will provide significantly enhanced passenger circulation capacity to every platform and provide opportunities for 7,000 square metre of leisure and retail uses. The proposed concourse is located centrally in the existing Station, providing access to both sides of the City Centre and all types of rail service. This space will allow the potential for the HS2 roof to be utilised as amenity space – subject to further technical diligence on the deliverability of the proposals.

I hope this means that the "common concourse" is east of the existing main bridge which would become redundant on completion. With hindsight building that at the western end of the shed with stairs/escalators one side only was a mistake. The new one needs two sets of escalators and stairs down to each existing platform, to the left and right as viewed when ascending from the existing concourse. HS2 platforms and hopefully a southern exit would be straight in front.

I'm rather worried by the hint that retail and amenity space would be in or accessed through this concourse, as it really needs the space for passenger circulation. There's a risk of repeating the mistakes of Manchester Victoria on a larger scale.

Eric · 19 Oct 2018

Iskra said:
I'm sorry but it's really not far at all.

The only thing I don't like about Leeds station is how everyone is funnelled into a relatively narrow approach to the ticket barriers. Trying to walk against the main flow is a nightmare.

Not far? I suggest you try going from 1b to 16/17 with suitcases as me and wife did with the 10 minutes connection time.

It’s impossible.

Iskra · 19 Oct 2018

Eric said:
Not far? I suggest you try going from 1b to 16/17 with suitcases as me and wife did with the 10 minutes connection time.

It’s impossible.

I really do not think it is impossible.

And even so, if you miss your train and have allowed the appropriate connection time, you should be able to continue your journey without any detriment ...assuming of course you are only travelling with an amount of luggage that you can reasonably carry.

It’s probably about 500m in total, and the average person walks at 4km/h, which looks pretty comfortable to me.

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