Should people be allowed to stand in 1st class on very crowded services.

AM9 · 19 Oct 2018

yorkie said:
We already have a system whereby people who have spacious cars get more space than those of us who don't (e.g. I cycle or walk or get a bus; I occasionally get a lift but I will never be occupying the entire footprint of a car by myself), and that is the true comparison between 1st and Standard class.
Today I will cycle to the station rather than take the car; I have chosen to pay less but in turn I will occupy vastly less road space.

Not quite because the charge for driving a vehicle on the road is based on the vehicle's potential for pollution. The road itself is funded from general taxation, i.e. the same public purse that pays for education, hospitals, the armed forces etc., not, as many misinformed motorists proclaim, 'Road Tax', (there's been no such thing as 'road tax' since ISTR 1937 anyway). So if you wished, you could drive a large vehicle on the road for zero VED provided it created zero CO2 emissions at the point of use.

yorkie said:
When I get to the station, I will board a train in 1st class because I have paid extra to occupy a slightly larger amount of space than if I had paid a bit less to go in Standard

But that only gives you extra space (if available), it shouldn't give you that if it prevents others from travelling at all.

yorkie said:
In both cases I have a choice, based on my budget and my requirements and what I want to do. The difference between 1st and Standard is far smaller than the difference between certain road users and certain other road users.

Yes I agree but if you accept that much rail travel is there because it is a public transport mode part funded by public money, (specifically the infrastructure), do you think that a commercial operator should (as sefton says above) "... deliberately delay your (their) customers because you have made the decision to carry empty space around, rather than declassify that empty space ..." .

yorkie said:
I think any further comparisons would belong in a new thread in General Discussion, feel free to create one if you'd like to explore this comparison further.

Yes I (or somebody else) may.

yorkie said:
If 1st class gets declassified, I will be able to claim back the difference, so I won't have lost out. If I am unable to sit down at all then I would get the full amount back, but still be conveyed to my destination. I think that the system is fair and reasonable.

Yes that's fair, but not much help to those in standard class who won't necessarily get anything back if they can't even board the train. In certain situations, they may even have difficulty persuading a TOC that they have been delayed long enough by not boarding to qualify for Delay Repay.

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underbank · 19 Oct 2018

mmh said:
Not everywhere - airlines routinely put passengers in business / first class seats who haven't paid the supplement for them, and don't refund the people who have.

But they don't always get all the "extras" such as the food/alcohol that those who've paid the right price would enjoy. I've been upgraded twice (due to cancelled earlier flights) and received none of the benefits other than the bigger seat/space - I think there are different kinds of upgrade - perhaps you get the full service if you get upgraded due to being a frequent flyer rather than just because the economy is already full.

underbank · 19 Oct 2018

tiptoptaff said:
The crew on board at that exact moment may well have access to reservation data for the rest of the journey. They may choose to leave 1st full classified as such, and half empty at station A, because they know at station B, C or D they have a number of expected reservations that would fill 1st class with full paying passengers.

Just because something has happened in front of you that you can see, doesn't mean a bigger picture isn't being considered

Brilliant post and shows how things sometimes aren't as simple/obvious as they may seem.

sefton · 19 Oct 2018

gsnedders said:
I disagree: that shouldn't be up to the train crew. If the TOC wants to carry empty space around and delay repay lots of customers, they should absolutely be free to do so. (And, in reality, many are forced by the DfT's franchise agreements which require a given amount of first class provision.)

I disagree on both points.

Many times on here people claim the train manager's train is 'their' train. If so they should work to deliver the service their customers have paid for; all of the customers, not just some of them. Which is allowing them to travel on a scheduled service they have sold a ticket for.

And if the franchise agreement requires you to have first class but you know you cannot deliver an acceptable service without declassifying, then don't bid for it.

DenmarkRail · 19 Oct 2018

I really don't mean to sound like a snob BUT:

Sometimes, mainly on VT or XC services from Stafford, I will pay for first class, providing its not overly expensive... I did Stafford to Penzance for £200, which for a journey of that legnth, its okay... If I did pay that much though, I genuinly wouldn't expect the service I paid for to be ended because we're letting people stand in the aisles etc, when I'm trying to have a meal, or a drink and so on. I mean, genuine answers only... Would you be happy with that? I'm also fairly unhappy when they declassify, mainly because I paid for the service, I don't care for getting money back, because I wanted that service, so I paid for it. If a service is too busy, then they should perhaps make more enforcements like compulsory reservations etc.

Its an unpopular opinion, but...

cuccir · 19 Oct 2018

DenmarkRail said:
I really don't mean to sound like a snob BUT:

Sometimes, mainly on VT or XC services from Stafford, I will pay for first class, providing its not overly expensive... I did Stafford to Penzance for £200, which for a journey of that legnth, its okay... If I did pay that much though, I genuinly wouldn't expect the service I paid for to be ended because we're letting people stand in the aisles etc, when I'm trying to have a meal, or a drink and so on. I mean, genuine answers only... Would you be happy with that? I'm also fairly unhappy when they declassify, mainly because I paid for the service, I don't care for getting money back, because I wanted that service, so I paid for it. If a service is too busy, then they should perhaps make more enforcements like compulsory reservations etc.

Its an unpopular opinion, but...

I think it's true that there are people who wouldn't have travelled by train if only standard class were available, and simplt refunding the difference seems to miss this. I think TOCe should declassify when the alternative is leaving passengers on the platform, but that the refund should be the fare + 10%

AM9 · 19 Oct 2018

DenmarkRail said:
I really don't mean to sound like a snob BUT:

Sometimes, mainly on VT or XC services from Stafford, I will pay for first class, providing its not overly expensive... I did Stafford to Penzance for £200, which for a journey of that legnth, its okay... If I did pay that much though, I genuinly wouldn't expect the service I paid for to be ended because we're letting people stand in the aisles etc, when I'm trying to have a meal, or a drink and so on. I mean, genuine answers only... Would you be happy with that? I'm also fairly unhappy when they declassify, mainly because I paid for the service, I don't care for getting money back, because I wanted that service, so I paid for it. If a service is too busy, then they should perhaps make more enforcements like compulsory reservations etc.

Its an unpopular opinion, but...

I wouldn't call it snobbish, more selfish. It's not about them being accomodated in a space that they haven't paid for,- (you mentioned Stafford to Penzance) if the train's that full that passengers cannot get on any coach, those people boarding say in Cornwall may have to wait for over an hour for a train, maybe to be refused travel because of other 1st class ticket holders not wanting the great unwashed in the space that the have paid for. Just because it is the railway's shortfall, how long would it take for you to recognise their plight?

Jonny · 19 Oct 2018

DenmarkRail said:
I really don't mean to sound like a snob BUT:

Sometimes, mainly on VT or XC services from Stafford, I will pay for first class, providing its not overly expensive... I did Stafford to Penzance for £200, which for a journey of that legnth, its okay... If I did pay that much though, I genuinly wouldn't expect the service I paid for to be ended because we're letting people stand in the aisles etc, when I'm trying to have a meal, or a drink and so on. I mean, genuine answers only... Would you be happy with that? I'm also fairly unhappy when they declassify, mainly because I paid for the service, I don't care for getting money back, because I wanted that service, so I paid for it. If a service is too busy, then they should perhaps make more enforcements like compulsory reservations etc.

Its an unpopular opinion, but...

The trouble is that no-one dares to use surge pricing...

Mathew S · 19 Oct 2018

Starmill said:
Frankly I don't think this is what ANY First Class ticket holders think they've bought, except maybe for you.

A more spacious and comfortable seating area, a more 'premium' ambience and quality of fittings, a greater likelihood of a seat on trains where seats cannot be reserved, and a complimentary service provided at seat are all things that people booking First Class are likely to be expecting in exchange for a First Class ticket purchase.

Simply the right to exclude customers who don't have First Class tickets from their area for no reason beyond that is a deeply illogical and almost incomprehensibly bizarre thing to want to try to buy. Pretty much no reasonable person would ever pay more for that alone. It's also very clear, in my view, that this is something that is not on offer when you buy a First Class ticket.

Not sure I can agree with that. I've certainly paid extra for a weekend first upgrade to avoid having to be subjected to football fans, hen parties, drunks, etc. before now... In that case, not having standard ticket holders in my carriage is exactly what I'm paying for.

yorkie · 20 Oct 2018

AM9 said:
Not quite because the charge for driving a vehicle on the road is based on the vehicle's potential for pollution. ...

It depends on what we're arguing about; a direct comparison is totally impossible as they are irreconcilably different concepts, but if we're arguing over "class" then arguably it doesn't matter what the constituent parts of the overall costs are, but I'm not going to get in a debate in this thread, though you have posted numerous things I would agree with or am not arguing against. We're talking at cross-purposes.

Mathew S said:
Not sure I can agree with that. I've certainly paid extra for a weekend first upgrade to avoid having to be subjected to football fans, hen parties, drunks, etc. before now... In that case, not having standard ticket holders in my carriage is exactly what I'm paying for.

So you are saying you aren't paying extra for a more spacious, comfortable space with a better ambience?

Your post doesn't really make sense; if your argument is that you are a standard class passenger except when you want to pay extra to get away from standard class passengers, then all it takes is a few other people like you to upgrade, and you have failed in your aim

Starmill · 20 Oct 2018

Mathew S said:
Not sure I can agree with that. I've certainly paid extra for a weekend first upgrade to avoid having to be subjected to football fans, hen parties, drunks, etc. before now... In that case, not having standard ticket holders in my carriage is exactly what I'm paying for.

Except that I've been in carriages where many drunks, hen parties screaming babies and loud passengers have First Class tickets... They're allowed to buy them just as much as you are. Unfortunately I don't really think this makes sense!

Gone are the days where First Class was a filter for social class. Certainly with the £6 First Class tickets from Birmingham to Stafford on CrossCountry.

bramling · 20 Oct 2018

yorkie said:
It depends on what we're arguing about; a direct comparison is totally impossible as they are irreconcilably different concepts, but if we're arguing over "class" then arguably it doesn't matter what the constituent parts of the overall costs are, but I'm not going to get in a debate in this thread, though you have posted numerous things I would agree with or am not arguing against. We're talking at cross-purposes.

So you are saying you aren't paying extra for a more spacious, comfortable space with a better ambience?

Your post doesn't really make sense; if your argument is that you are a standard class passenger except when you want to pay extra to get away from standard class passengers, then all it takes is a few other people like you to upgrade, and you have failed in your aim

No because, like with any scarce good or service, price acts as a rationing device. So the likelihood is not everyone will choose to (or be able to) pay the extra.

Starmill · 20 Oct 2018

bramling said:
No because, like with any scarce good or service, price acts as a rationing device. So the likelihood is not everyone will choose (or be able to) pay the extra.

First Class sometimes costs less than Standard Class. In a significant proportion of the time it costs either less, the same, or only 10 - 20% more. This is clearly not really performing a significant rationing function in these cases. It does in many other cases where First Class costs double or more. But the idea that First Class is for wealthier classes, as you're implying here, is simply untrue!

On one memorable journey from London Euston on the 1840 to Manchester Piccadilly, I had paid £20. The person sat opposite me had no ticket and paid the guard nearly £250 for a First Anytime Single.

bramling · 20 Oct 2018

Starmill said:
First Class sometimes costs less than Standard Class. In a significant proportion of the time it costs either less, the same, or only 10 - 20% more. This is clearly not really performing a significant rationing function in these cases. It does in many other cases where First Class costs double or more. But the idea that First Class is for wealthier classes, as you're implying here, is simply untrue!

On one memorable journey from London Euston on the 1840 to Manchester Piccadilly, I had paid £20. The person sat opposite me had no ticket and paid the guard nearly £250 for a First Anytime Single.

These are fair points. I don’t really agree with the disparity between first-class fares, although that’s a separate debate!

Starmill · 20 Oct 2018

That was a rather extreme example of course. The cheapest First Class flat fare sale ticket against the most expensive First Anytime. The current price is £242.

WYSH · 20 Oct 2018

I believe there should be a rule that states TOCs can only provide 1st class on units above a minimum length. E.g only on units over 6 carriages.
This would surely encourage TOCs to provide extra capacity and a lot of the examples above have been on shorter units such as 185s and 220s.
Additionally I believe 1st should be declassified automatically on certain peak services between commuter stops such as Stafford-Birmingham or Leeds-Sheffield. And a 1st class tickets for someone travelling between York and Derby should only be charge 1st class fares between York-Leeds & Sheffield-Derby with the middle section priced as standard.

Senex · 20 Oct 2018

takno said:
Possibly high time for providing a decent level of commuter service and long enough trains on the routes. You can talk about differential pricing until you're blue in the face, but for the most part there isn't a different 'more suitable' train they ought to be catching, and if there is it is even more crush-loaded than the long-distance one.

Yes, I agree with you—I'd be all for a German-type system of good local/regional services specified by a regional authority with the fares structure they want and a distinct service of longer-distance trains where the pricing would keep the very short-distance passengers off.

Mathew S · 20 Oct 2018

yorkie said:
It depends on what we're arguing about; a direct comparison is totally impossible as they are irreconcilably different concepts, but if we're arguing over "class" then arguably it doesn't matter what the constituent parts of the overall costs are, but I'm not going to get in a debate in this thread, though you have posted numerous things I would agree with or am not arguing against. We're talking at cross-purposes.

So you are saying you aren't paying extra for a more spacious, comfortable space with a better ambience?

Your post doesn't really make sense; if your argument is that you are a standard class passenger except when you want to pay extra to get away from standard class passengers, then all it takes is a few other people like you to upgrade, and you have failed in your aim

Obviously I'm paying for all those things as well, but yes, part of what I'm paying for is the expectation of a less crowded, more peaceful journey. Totally aware, of course, that it could backfire as you suggest, but it's not happened yet.

Mathew S · 20 Oct 2018

Starmill said:
Except that I've been in carriages where many drunks, hen parties screaming babies and loud passengers have First Class tickets... They're allowed to buy them just as much as you are. Unfortunately I don't really think this makes sense!

Gone are the days where First Class was a filter for social class. Certainly with the £6 First Class tickets from Birmingham to Stafford on CrossCountry.

In fairness, I tend to travel with VTWC on longer journeys, so the 1st fares are somewhat pricier and, as a rule, the carriages mostly deserted.
But yes, it's not a trick that works on TPE for example, for obvious reasons.

js1000 · 21 Oct 2018

221129 said:
Good way to end up with either a further delay to the train, or you in court...

Most train guards are smart enough to know if they felt aggrieved then passengers can turn on them at anytime and they get put in a difficult position. TOCs spending money on taking a passenger to court because they were in 1st class due to lack of space in standard isn't a realistic course of action - nevermind 5+ of them.

BMIFlyer · 21 Oct 2018

js1000 said:
Most train guards are smart enough to know if they felt aggrieved then passengers can turn on them at anytime and they get put in a difficult position. TOCs spending money on taking a passenger to court because they were in 1st class due to lack of space in standard isn't a realistic course of action - nevermind 5+ of them.

Most train guards I know would, in the above situation, stick to their guns and NOT back down. Why should a guard have to feel threatened / bullied by passengers just because someone with a standard class ticket wants to sit in 1st?

I have seen guards on very busy TPE services inform people with standard tickets that they either need to upgrade or stand elsewhere.

HORNIMANS · 21 Oct 2018

No they shouldn't, 1st class passengers pay a premium fare for the privalidge more comfortable journey. Remember that buying a ticket to travel by train does not entitle you a seat at all, only to travel.

SoccerHQ · 21 Oct 2018

Very simple for me.

9/11 carriages, nope.

4-5 carriages, without a shadow of a doubt.

Passengers should not be punished and crammed in like sardines when inadequate rolling stock is constantly provided for busy routes at peak times e.g. Cross Country.

philthetube · 21 Oct 2018

Starmill said:
It is my experience that CrossCountry don't allow passengers with standard class tickets to use First Class even if there is a lot of empty space in there, and standard is so full that it's difficult to board.

Other operators do this sometimes. I've had it myself on TransPennine Express several times.

I have actually seen people being left behind by XC services where there would have been space to allow them to board if First Class were being used to the fullest. So I would say that what you're asking for is already the reality in at least some cases.

Board a voyager, stand as close as possible to standard, and be polite to the guard, "certainly I will move down the train, can you ask these people to clear me a space please," sorry I boarded at this end but the formation was not shown on the platform, also I will need you to find somewhere for my luggage, thank you"

sefton · 21 Oct 2018

HORNIMANS said:
No they shouldn't, 1st class passengers pay a premium fare for the privalidge more comfortable journey. Remember that buying a ticket to travel by train does not entitle you a seat at all, only to travel.

And that is exactly the point - a ticket entitles you to travel.

So if it is a question of standard class passengers being left behind when there is no standing space in standard but there is space in 1st class, then the onboard staff should automatically declassify 1st class to allow their customers to travel on the train for which the train company sold them a ticket.

If that means 1st class passengers lose their peace and quiet, then tough.

Randomer · 21 Oct 2018

sefton said:
So if it is a question of standard class passengers being left behind when there is no standing space in standard but there is space in 1st class, then the onboard staff should automatically declassify 1st class to allow their customers to travel on the train for which the train company sold them a ticket.

Absolutely agree.

I can see the difference on ex NSE 12 car services with 4 TPH or indeed TPE with 5 TPH between Leeds and Manchester. But passengers not being able to board an hourly XC service due to no standing room in 1st Class with only 4 carriages would be outrageous.

Likewise TPE policy as promulgated above to never declassify is plainly wrong on hourly frequency services with short trains going to Hull or Scarborough for example.

185143 · 22 Oct 2018

I recall a journey on a rammed XC Voyager a few years back, where I'd reserved a seat and was rudely told to put it somewhere I didn't want to by the occupant.

I went to the TM via the platform, but by that time there was no chance of getting back into the carriage. Plenty of people were standing in the vestibule end towards standard in the first class coach, but no one within the first class coach or the vestibule beyond. AFAIK Everyone managed to board though. The TM explained there was little she could do-as getting beyond First Class was impossible (IIRC it being the busiest day in Birmingham New Street's history?) But I was welcome to remain in the first class vestibule.

Admittedly camping out on the floor with plenty of space for 90 minutes with a plug, free wifi and a (purchased) drink from the trolley was surprisingly pleasant!

I have to spend a significant amount of time at work dealing with boarding lots passengers onto short units that have first class. It's a nightmare at times. We had a short formed service earlier (4 car vice 8) with 75 more reservations than actual seats on the train that turned up. 'Pack 'em on where we can' was the option taken.

Spartacus · 27 Oct 2018

Quite simply I think it should be at on train staff's discretion (usually guard/TM) to declassify or not, or any variations of. I was on one service the other day where a woman thought it was perfectly fine to actually sit in 1st class as standard was busy (though with seats still available) and 'nobody else was sitting there'. The 185 ballroom she was taken to had 6 TPE staff and two others in, but that still didn't totally shut her up.

The thing is everyone's got a different opinion of what busy actually is. I do think there's guards out there who are decidedly reluctant to declassify 1st, no matter how quiet it is compared to standard.

route:oxford · 27 Oct 2018

WYSH said:
It got me thinking should staff stop people entering 1st class on very busy services even if they have no where else to go but be left behind on the platform.

Definitely not. It wouldn't be the first time that I have a First Class ticket and had to stand in First Class for 3 hours.

route:oxford · 27 Oct 2018

sefton said:
But to deliberately delay your customers because you have made the decision to carry empty space around, rather than declassify that empty space is utterly unacceptable.

You have the opportunity to make the lifestyle choice to purchase an upgraded ticket.

It's entirely your decision.

Should people be allowed to stand in 1st class on very crowded services.

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