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Is Eurostar a Wasted Opportunity?

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Oxfordblues

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If you're not careful you can be comprehensively ripped-off by Eurostar. I turned-up at St. Pancras recently to buy an off-peak second-class return to Lille. The fare was £149 each way plus a £10 "booking fee", total fare £308. No concessions, no discounts, nothing. Next time I'll happily fly for a tiny fraction of the cost by Eurostar (or should that be "Usury-star"?)
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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If you're not careful you can be comprehensively ripped-off by Eurostar. I turned-up at St. Pancras recently to buy an off-peak second-class return to Lille. The fare was £149 each way plus a £10 "booking fee", total fare £308. No concessions, no discounts, nothing. Next time I'll happily fly for a tiny fraction of the cost by Eurostar (or should that be "Usury-star"?)
Would you expect to have paid less if you had turned up to an airport and asked for an "off-peak" standard premier return to somewhere like Lille?
 

Hadders

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Eurostar considers itself an aeroplane on rails. Effectively it’s book in advance, fixed train only unless you’ve money to burn.
 

Urobach

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You have to love Eurostar (source: Seat61).

Yet another email from an Italy to London passenger punished for choosing to go by rail. Eurostar charged her a whopping £250 on top of the ticket she’d already bought to get her home - for the crime of being delayed between Italy & Paris.

I find that strange...my folks were delayed coming back from Munich, missing their connection and indeed the last train back from Brussels in the process. Eurostar put them up in a pretty nice hotel (assume one where staff might lodge?) and a replacement ticket for use the next morning.
 

CMS

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You have to love Eurostar (source: Seat61).

Yet another email from an Italy to London passenger punished for choosing to go by rail. Eurostar charged her a whopping £250 on top of the ticket she’d already bought to get her home - for the crime of being delayed between Italy & Paris.
I saw this tweet and thought it very odd. If I'm not mistaken E* share info with the blog and gave him a behind-the-scenes look at everything to do with the Amsterdam launch twice... given Eurostar travel is somewhat a pillar of his website, surely you wouldn't bite the hand that feeds you? I've never experienced this when travelling with Eurostar, but granted I've never done so from Italy, only different SNCF/DB destinations.

If you're not careful you can be comprehensively ripped-off by Eurostar. I turned-up at St. Pancras recently to buy an off-peak second-class return to Lille. The fare was £149 each way plus a £10 "booking fee", total fare £308. No concessions, no discounts, nothing. Next time I'll happily fly for a tiny fraction of the cost by Eurostar (or should that be "Usury-star"?)
Whilst I disagree with the overall point, as it's been like this for about 10 years and everyone else seems to cope with the fare structure (book online, in advance), I do agree that the commercial policy is definitely worsening. The new CEO is from Yodel and Easyjet so no doubt there will be an attempt to streamline the core product and bulk out every possible extra add-on that could get a sale. I think since he took over there has been a ticket office booking fee, alcohol allowance reduction meaning you have to pay excess as recorded luggage, bike policy change meaning you have to pay extra if you don't book in advance, amend the loyalty programme so rewards are less value for money, removal of shops and seating in St Pancras to put in pop-up salon/shop and duty free store and redesign of the website so that it's easy to book an extra/a hotel as a package with your ticket but it's harder to find service information and key things like train numbers.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Whilst I disagree with the overall point, as it's been like this for about 10 years and everyone else seems to cope with the fare structure (book online, in advance),

I coped with the fare structure by simply abandoning my plans for a trip to Paris on Eurostar when I realised their fare structure meant it was basically impossible to plan last minute and be flexible for a reasonable cost, the way I would expect with a 'normal' train service.
 

edwin_m

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Is there something in the Tunnel fire regulations that they prevents them having more than a certain number of passengers on each train in case of the need for evacuation? Or are they just following SNCF practice that TGVs require a reservation, just without the facility to change it at short notice?
 

Wychwood93

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I coped with the fare structure by simply abandoning my plans for a trip to Paris on Eurostar when I realised their fare structure meant it was basically impossible to plan last minute and be flexible for a reasonable cost, the way I would expect with a 'normal' train service.
Since an initial 'staff' return to Paris in 1994, I have found that, in over 100 subsequent journeys, flexibility varies. A basic stumbling use of French in Gare du Nord, Lille or Bruxelles with a view to getting the next service, rather than the later one that you are booked on, generally has a favourable outcome. An odd occasion where a 'non' appears - less than the fingers on one hand from memory. A turn-up fare - see above somewhere - is, like an airline - kerching. You are filling a seat that would otherwise not have been taken - not quite 'give us a fiver', but no need to be silly. Which is what E* and airlines do. Treat customers well and, well, they might come back.
 

MarcVD

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Italy to London via Thello, Paris, and Eurostar :
You can't get a CIV Ticket for that trip. Two separate legs =》No protection.
 

Hadders

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Is there something in the Tunnel fire regulations that they prevents them having more than a certain number of passengers on each train in case of the need for evacuation? Or are they just following SNCF practice that TGVs require a reservation, just without the facility to change it at short notice?

I don’t know about the tunnel regulations but Eurostar is compulsory reservations - always has been.

This is what many TOCs would like to move to on the domestic network....
 

radamfi

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I don’t know about the tunnel regulations but Eurostar is compulsory reservations - always has been.

This is what many TOCs would like to move to on the domestic network....

Compulsory reservations are not so bad as long as you can exchange the ticket and get on the next train with minimal fuss. That is usually no problem on TGVs as long as there are seats. You can even buy a ticket for immediate travel at a reasonable price. What happens if you miss the 1500 train from London to Manchester? You have to wait until 1900 for the next one.
 

Hadders

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The point is on the domestic network you can choose to stand if there are no seats available.

With compulsory reservations you won’t be going anywhere if all the seats are reserved.
 

Gadget88

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I disagree with much of this topic. Check Is fine very quick 30 mins enough time. Lounges are busy but no more busy than airports.

Why do people moan when eurostar started there was less destinations and it took more than 2 hours to reach Paris.

Today we have spacious new trains with wi-if, Amsterdam trains and a much more impressive check in area than Waterloo was.

Anybody who prefers flying you are welcome to it. I travel down from Scotland to go Eurostar. The new trains are miles better than the dark dull old trains. The new trains are ten years ahead of anything on UK lines and miles better than LNER’s new trains.
 

Gadget88

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Also Cologne and Frankfurt would be very popular. I believe the new trains can operate in Germany I think it will happen one day .
 
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I can’t see that point making any sense. A passenger who travels to France on the ferry and drives onto the Netherlands is checked by the PAF on entering Schengen; a passenger who flies to Köln and gets a train onwards is checked by the Bundespolizei. Why would the Koninklijke Marechaussee suddenly be dissatisfied with the PAF for travel by Eurostar? If someone is wanted they can be flagged on the Schengen Information System and the PAF will see that when they scan their passport.

Indeed, I think the message from NL has got a little garbled. It is a feature of the Schengen agreement that all signatories accept that frontier controls are done on entry to Schengen wherever it is. This is the most remarkable feature of it, eg. the Dutch have to rely on the Poles checking properly at the frontier with eg. Ukraine, the French from the UK, the Italians from Libya etc. etc. They are allowed to add their own controls on entry to NL in emergency circumstances (as the French, Swiss and Austrians have been doing on the Italian border for some time because of the migrant situation). So this concern about the PAF is probably something to do with Dutch domestic politics rather than Marechaussee....

Whilst I am here, can I let you know of a new horror that ES seem to have instituted at Lille Europe which I ran into last week, which is that they now let passengers for the next train and the one after that checkin and go through security simultaneously -- thus making the 30 minute check in very challenging to deliver. For the 1835 train last week, the check-in didn't begin until 1805 and the departure hall was eventually quite full. I was one of the last to board (at c.1832) and had to run down the platform to get to the right end of the train in time. (If the ES trains are late from Lille Europe, they miss their tunnel slots). Some of the 1835 passengers were left behind, I think....in a departure hall full of people for the 1935. And my seat had been given away to someone else as they had assumed I was a no-show. It's great when they keep on finding new ways to keep their passengers entertained! Lille used to be so easy to use.
 

Aictos

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I disagree with much of this topic. Check Is fine very quick 30 mins enough time. Lounges are busy but no more busy than airports.

Why do people moan when eurostar started there was less destinations and it took more than 2 hours to reach Paris.

Today we have spacious new trains with wi-if, Amsterdam trains and a much more impressive check in area than Waterloo was.

Anybody who prefers flying you are welcome to it. I travel down from Scotland to go Eurostar. The new trains are miles better than the dark dull old trains. The new trains are ten years ahead of anything on UK lines and miles better than LNER’s new trains.

I agree, there has been much investment in Eurostar from new destinations and new trains that is far from being a waste of money!

I never used Waterloo but St Pancras is far more better sited as have Euston, St Pancras itself and Kings Cross all within a 10 minute walk so is far better for connections.

Plus the powers to be are actually actively looking at bringing London to Bordeaux to the network although it might not be served by Eurostar, it's still a destination that is being actively looked at by these who operate track and trains and if Eurostar was such a waste of space then they wouldn't be working with their rail partners to bring direct London trains to Bordeaux now would they!
 

Wychwood93

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I disagree with much of this topic. Check Is fine very quick 30 mins enough time. Lounges are busy but no more busy than airports.

Why do people moan when eurostar started there was less destinations and it took more than 2 hours to reach Paris.

Today we have spacious new trains with wi-if, Amsterdam trains and a much more impressive check in area than Waterloo was.

Anybody who prefers flying you are welcome to it. I travel down from Scotland to go Eurostar. The new trains are miles better than the dark dull old trains. The new trains are ten years ahead of anything on UK lines and miles better than LNER’s new trains.
It still takes more than 2 hours to get to Paris - a quick look would see 2h 16m as the fastest. The high seat-backs of the new trains remind one very much of GWR HSTs - the RENFE versions of the same trains have sensible seat-backs and are, as a result, a tad more spacious. For me Waterloo was fine - didn't have to get the first train of the day from Christchurch - St. Pancras means the first train again to get anywhere sensible.
 

leshuttle

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It would be interesting to see how Eurostar would handle having to share their terminal spaces along with the Business Premier lounges with competing operators.
 

Wychwood93

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It would be interesting to see how Eurostar would handle having to share their terminal spaces along with the Business Premier lounges with competing operators.
I would suggest that little chance of competition on the core Paris and Brussels routes - no real chance of quicker times and possibly slower times if mixed stops were put in, although little chance of the latter. More chance of competition with regard to southern France, covered already with the Marseille service I know, or a Bordeaux - I would query the market for that. Nice place but... It would have to be Holland (how does the Amsterdam load?) or Germany. You would probably want a half-plus loading to make it worthwhile - and where do you stop on the way?
 

Aictos

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or a Bordeaux - I would query the market for that.

I hate to burst your bubble but the people who do count actually think there IS a business case for direct London to Bordeaux services as stated in the two articles below so yes I think that we will see the service within the next 5 years.

Railway Gazette 1 May 2018

EUROPE: ‘Advanced planning’ is being undertaken to facilitate the possible launch of a direct London – Bordeaux high speed rail service, HS1 Ltd confirmed on April 30.

The manager of the high speed line between London and the Channel Tunnel also confirmed it was in very early stage discussions for possible services from London to destinations including Frankfurt and Genève. It has appointed Edmund Butcher as market development lead to explore new route opportunities.

Discussions for the Bordeaux route have been held with Channel Tunnel operator Eurotunnel, French infrastructure manager SNCF Réseau and Tours – Bordeaux high speed line infrastructure concessionaire LISEA.

In what HS1 Ltd said was ‘a first for the UK’, the infrastructure managers aim to produce a turnkey package of train paths, meaning that a train operator – which HS1 Ltd confirmed to Railway Gazette International would not have to be Eurostar – would be able to ‘get the route up and running in a couple of years’. This would be a ‘much faster start-up time than previous international routes’, HS1 Ltd said. Eurostar’s Amsterdam route was planned for more than 10 years.

HS1 Ltd CEO Dyan Crowther said the planning for a Bordeaux service was ‘the first time that railway operators have collaborated in this way and saves the train operator having to do a lot of legwork’, with the route being ‘almost ready for a train operator to turn the key as soon as the UK and French governments agree on border controls’, and ‘with the right commitment, we could be looking at new services in the next couple of years’.

A meeting was held on April 25 to discuss issues including the provision of the security facilities which would be required to permit UK-bound services to use Bordeaux Saint-Jean station.

The proposed direct service bypassing Paris would offer a journey time of less than 5 h. This compares to a current London – Bordeaux journey of 5 h 25 min including a 1 h 5 min connection in Paris, and a Bordeaux – London journey time of 6 h 26 min including security and border controls at Paris Nord.

HS1 Ltd believes this would allow a future train operator to take on low cost airlines which currently fly 1·2 million passengers/ year between the cities. The launch of Eurostar’s London – Amsterdam service in April had shown ‘there’s a real demand for international train services to provide a comfortable and better-connected service, especially for leisure journeys’, said Crowther.

Responding to the announcement by HS1 Ltd, Kate Andrews, co-founder and Chief Operating Officer of SNCF-owned ticket retailer Loco2, said the convenience of a direct train was ‘a huge incentive for first-time international train travellers, young families and seniors, many of whom are put off by journeys that include changing trains in Paris.’

Andrews said ‘whichever operator takes on this route, it should be careful to learn from the lessons of TGV Lyria’s Lille – Genève direct route that was launched in 2015 and axed just a year later. Although this service ran only to Lille, rather than continuing on to London, there were good connections tailored to Eurostar passengers travelling to/from the UK. It fell down, in part because it was scheduled to run just four times per week, instead of every day, and subsequently failed to get onto the radar of travellers. Any London - Bordeaux operator should carefully consider scheduling and seasonality to make a real success of this fantastic opportunity.’


https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ux-frankfurt-and-geneve-under-discussion.html

Railway Gazette 15 Oct 2018

EUROPE: The four infrastructure managers responsible for the high speed lines between London and Bordeaux have agreed to study the feasibility of adapting Bordeaux Saint-Jean station to handle international passengers traveling to and from the UK.

SNCF Réseau, Eurotunnel, Lisea and HS1 said the October 10 agreement was a key milestone in their ‘innovative co-operation’ to plan a route which an operator – such as, but not necessarily, Eurostar – could use on a turnkey basis to launch an open access service.

The feasibility study will look at the border control and security screening facilities which would be needed to allow passengers to travel directly from Bordeaux St Jean to London St Pancras without having to change trains or pass through security at an intermediate station.

The envisaged service would take under 5 h, thanks to the opening last year of the Sud-Europe Atlantique high speed line between Tours and Bordeaux.

The infrastructure managers said more than one million people travelled by air between London and the Bordeaux region last year, and modelling predicts that up to 20% could switch to rail.

‘This co-operation between infrastructure managers marks our common will to set the foundations for the development of a cross-Channel rail service between London and Bordeaux’, said SNCF Réseau Commercial Director Arnaud Sohier.

‘International travellers cherish the convenience of direct high speed rail services’, said Jean-Pierre Ramirez, Eurotunnel’s Railway Network Director. ‘Following the success of London – Amsterdam, the introduction of such an offer between Bordeaux and London is set to become the market reference.’

Passengers can currently travel on through Eurostar trains between London and Amsterdam, but at present Amsterdam – London passengers are required to change trains and undergo border formalities at Brussels Midi.


https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...bordeaux-station-to-handle-london-trains.html
 

LeeLivery

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I hate to burst your bubble but the people who do count actually think there IS a business case for direct London to Bordeaux services as stated in the two articles below so yes I think that we will see the service within the next 5 years.

Railway Gazette 1 May 2018

EUROPE: ‘Advanced planning’ is being undertaken to facilitate the possible launch of a direct London – Bordeaux high speed rail service, HS1 Ltd confirmed on April 30.

The manager of the high speed line between London and the Channel Tunnel also confirmed it was in very early stage discussions for possible services from London to destinations including Frankfurt and Genève. It has appointed Edmund Butcher as market development lead to explore new route opportunities.

Discussions for the Bordeaux route have been held with Channel Tunnel operator Eurotunnel, French infrastructure manager SNCF Réseau and Tours – Bordeaux high speed line infrastructure concessionaire LISEA.

In what HS1 Ltd said was ‘a first for the UK’, the infrastructure managers aim to produce a turnkey package of train paths, meaning that a train operator – which HS1 Ltd confirmed to Railway Gazette International would not have to be Eurostar – would be able to ‘get the route up and running in a couple of years’. This would be a ‘much faster start-up time than previous international routes’, HS1 Ltd said. Eurostar’s Amsterdam route was planned for more than 10 years.

HS1 Ltd CEO Dyan Crowther said the planning for a Bordeaux service was ‘the first time that railway operators have collaborated in this way and saves the train operator having to do a lot of legwork’, with the route being ‘almost ready for a train operator to turn the key as soon as the UK and French governments agree on border controls’, and ‘with the right commitment, we could be looking at new services in the next couple of years’.

A meeting was held on April 25 to discuss issues including the provision of the security facilities which would be required to permit UK-bound services to use Bordeaux Saint-Jean station.

The proposed direct service bypassing Paris would offer a journey time of less than 5 h. This compares to a current London – Bordeaux journey of 5 h 25 min including a 1 h 5 min connection in Paris, and a Bordeaux – London journey time of 6 h 26 min including security and border controls at Paris Nord.

HS1 Ltd believes this would allow a future train operator to take on low cost airlines which currently fly 1·2 million passengers/ year between the cities. The launch of Eurostar’s London – Amsterdam service in April had shown ‘there’s a real demand for international train services to provide a comfortable and better-connected service, especially for leisure journeys’, said Crowther.

Responding to the announcement by HS1 Ltd, Kate Andrews, co-founder and Chief Operating Officer of SNCF-owned ticket retailer Loco2, said the convenience of a direct train was ‘a huge incentive for first-time international train travellers, young families and seniors, many of whom are put off by journeys that include changing trains in Paris.’

Andrews said ‘whichever operator takes on this route, it should be careful to learn from the lessons of TGV Lyria’s Lille – Genève direct route that was launched in 2015 and axed just a year later. Although this service ran only to Lille, rather than continuing on to London, there were good connections tailored to Eurostar passengers travelling to/from the UK. It fell down, in part because it was scheduled to run just four times per week, instead of every day, and subsequently failed to get onto the radar of travellers. Any London - Bordeaux operator should carefully consider scheduling and seasonality to make a real success of this fantastic opportunity.’


https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...ux-frankfurt-and-geneve-under-discussion.html

Railway Gazette 15 Oct 2018

EUROPE: The four infrastructure managers responsible for the high speed lines between London and Bordeaux have agreed to study the feasibility of adapting Bordeaux Saint-Jean station to handle international passengers traveling to and from the UK.

SNCF Réseau, Eurotunnel, Lisea and HS1 said the October 10 agreement was a key milestone in their ‘innovative co-operation’ to plan a route which an operator – such as, but not necessarily, Eurostar – could use on a turnkey basis to launch an open access service.

The feasibility study will look at the border control and security screening facilities which would be needed to allow passengers to travel directly from Bordeaux St Jean to London St Pancras without having to change trains or pass through security at an intermediate station.

The envisaged service would take under 5 h, thanks to the opening last year of the Sud-Europe Atlantique high speed line between Tours and Bordeaux.

The infrastructure managers said more than one million people travelled by air between London and the Bordeaux region last year, and modelling predicts that up to 20% could switch to rail.

‘This co-operation between infrastructure managers marks our common will to set the foundations for the development of a cross-Channel rail service between London and Bordeaux’, said SNCF Réseau Commercial Director Arnaud Sohier.

‘International travellers cherish the convenience of direct high speed rail services’, said Jean-Pierre Ramirez, Eurotunnel’s Railway Network Director. ‘Following the success of London – Amsterdam, the introduction of such an offer between Bordeaux and London is set to become the market reference.’

Passengers can currently travel on through Eurostar trains between London and Amsterdam, but at present Amsterdam – London passengers are required to change trains and undergo border formalities at Brussels Midi.


https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...bordeaux-station-to-handle-london-trains.html

Indeed, I am very much looking forward to it.
 

Aictos

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Indeed, I am very much looking forward to it.

As to I and the best thing? It might not even be Eurostar who operates the service as it could be anyone who with the correct safety case could operate it.
 

LeeLivery

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As to I and the best thing? It might not even be Eurostar who operates the service as it could be anyone who with the correct safety case could operate it.

First Bordeaux Trains :D

It would definitely be interesting to see a new operator. Only if I had the millions to spare...
 

JonathanP

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Hmmm. Remember when Deutsche Bahn had an ICE hauled to London St. Pancras so they could announce their own services to London that never happenned? You could have called that 'advanced planning' too.

I'm a bit sceptical about this plan not because I don't think there's a market at all, I just don't see how you could cover the overheads of operating an cross-channel TOC with at most 2 - 3 train pairs a day. In Germany there are a couple of organisations(running under the FlixTrain banner now) trying to compete with Deutsche Bahn by running a single train pair. But that is easy to do without comitting a lot of their own resources in safety cases, staff training and stock maintainence - they can simply hire a loco, a driver and spare coaches if need be from a large pool of available staff and equipment.

None of that works for the tunnel - there are no tunnel-certified drivers or rolling stock available on the open market(unless that's actually what this plan is about). Hull Trains kind-of make the mini-TOC model work using their own resources, except when it doesn't work - and will anyone be prepared to pay Eurostar level fares for Hull Trains level of reliability?

So I think the 'new' operator would have to be an 'old' operator like Thalys or SNCF which does it as an extension of their existing operations.
 
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LeeLivery

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Hmmm. Remember when Deutsche Bahn had an ICE hauled to London St. Pancras so they could announce their own services to London that never happenned? You could have called that 'advanced planning' too.

I'm a bit sceptical about this plan not because I don't think there's a market at all, I just don't see how you could cover the overheads of operating an cross-channel TOC with at most 2 - 3 train pairs a day. In Germany there are a couple of organisations(running under the FlixTrain banner now) trying to compete with Deutsche Bahn by running a single train pair. But that is easy to do without comitting a lot of their own resources in safety cases, staff training and stock maintainence - they can simply hire a loco, a driver and spare coaches if need be from a large pool of available staff and equipment.

None of that works for the tunnel - there are no tunnel-certified drivers or rolling stock available on the open market(unless that's actually what this plan is about). Hull Trains kind-of make the mini-TOC model work using their own resources, except when it doesn't work - and will anyone be prepared to pay Eurostar level fares for Hull Trains level of reliability?

In an ideal world, half of the Eurostar Brussels services would go Amsterdam and the other half, Cologne/Frankfurt. If Eurostar was owned in the same way Thayls is, it may have been easier to get it done. However, it's border control (:rolleyes:) and Köln Hbf which is a problem. I have no doubt London - Germany would be popular. It's just a shame there are many hurdles no matter the operator.
 

RLBH

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In an ideal world, half of the Eurostar Brussels services would go Amsterdam and the other half, Cologne/Frankfurt. If Eurostar was owned in the same way Thayls is, it may have been easier to get it done
In an ideal world, Thalys and Eurostar could have been one entity. Their histories line up remarkably closely, though that shouldn't really be a surprise as they're both tied in with LGV Nord.
 

DynamicSpirit

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If you're not careful you can be comprehensively ripped-off by Eurostar. I turned-up at St. Pancras recently to buy an off-peak second-class return to Lille. The fare was £149 each way plus a £10 "booking fee", total fare £308. No concessions, no discounts, nothing. Next time I'll happily fly for a tiny fraction of the cost by Eurostar (or should that be "Usury-star"?)

Would you expect to have paid less if you had turned up to an airport and asked for an "off-peak" standard premier return to somewhere like Lille?

London to Lille is about 180 miles.

Is it normal in the UK for an off-peak return over that distance to be be over £300? Comparable distances in the UK would be London to Crewe (off-peak return £79), London to Sheffield (£78 via Chesterfield), London to Exeter (£87.80).
 

ForTheLoveOf

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London to Lille is about 180 miles.

Is it normal in the UK for an off-peak return over that distance to be be over £300? Comparable distances in the UK would be London to Crewe (off-peak return £79), London to Sheffield (£78 via Chesterfield), London to Exeter (£87.80).
I agree; when you put it like that, it seems quite extortionate. But Eurostar operate what is functionally equivalent to an airline in terms of the type of journey, and type of traveller, catered for. And an airline would almost certainly not charge just £80 or £90 for a walkup return ticket.
 

radamfi

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It does seem crazy that we need to use overnight coaches more now compared to when there was no Channel Tunnel.
 

30907

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London to Lille is about 180 miles.

Is it normal in the UK for an off-peak return over that distance to be be over £300? Comparable distances in the UK would be London to Crewe (off-peak return £79), London to Sheffield (£78 via Chesterfield), London to Exeter (£87.80).

Eurostar fares to Paris are hardly more than to Lille (£10, looking at tomorrow, for another 150? miles) which is not surprising considering they can't really do internal traffic. And they do not have UK type offpeak fares - a comparison with Anytime Returns might even flatter Eurostar!
 
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