London Terminals from the north query

in the current thread about Farringdon in the general discussion section this post:

Chrisgr31 said:

Thats not what the National Rail Season ticket calculator says. It says St Albans City to London Thameslink annual is £3,500, to zones 1-6 is £4,396, to London Terminals (LBG is included in the list) is £3,712.

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...reveals that NRES season ticket calculator shows London Bridge is covered by a St Albans City to London Terminals season.

This goes against nearly all previous discussions in these forums, so is it an error, or a recent change?

Since when are there fares from St Albans City to London Terminals? I don't see any.

An Annual Season from St Albans City to London Thameslink is £3,500.

Starmill said:

Since when are there fares from St Albans City to London Terminals? I don't see any.

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There's a 7DS (weekly season) from either St Albans station to London Terminals, at £92.80, a bit more than the London Thameslink one. This would not be valid from Farringdon onwards, but does get you to Euston via Abbey.

ThisIsSurbiton said:

There's a 7DS (weekly season) from either St Albans station to London Terminals, at £92.80, a bit more than the London Thameslink one. This would not be valid from Farringdon onwards, but does get you to Euston via Abbey.

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Which is why I’m questioning the fact that London Bridge (and City and Blackfriars) are shown by NRES season calculator.

You have to enter St Albans City and London Bridge in the boxes, rather than just London (all stations).

Starmill said:

Since when are there fares from St Albans City to London Terminals? I don't see any.

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But it is shown on the NRES season calculator as in the originally quoted post which is why I’m asking.

Oh, I see. This is an AAA St Albans Abbey ticket. I'm not sure why you'd buy that though?

swt_passenger said:

Which is why I’m questioning the fact that London Bridge (and City and Blackfriars) are shown by NRES season calculator.

You have to enter St Albans City and London Bridge in the boxes, rather than just London (all stations).


But it is shown on the NRES season calculator as in the originally quoted post which is why I’m asking.

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AFAIK (and the LNER website bears me out) LBG is a London Thameslink destination. As is Elephant, though NRE omits this. What you have is a standard season plus SAA-EUS for very little extra.

30907 said:

AFAIK (and the LNER website bears me out) LBG is a London Thameslink destination. As is Elephant, though NRE omits this. What you have is a standard season plus SAA-EUS for very little extra.

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I agree, and that’s what I would expect, but it still doesn’t explain the season ticket calculator output, does it?

swt_passenger said:

I agree, and that’s what I would expect, but it still doesn’t explain the season ticket calculator output, does it?

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NRE's fare group data says that the valid terminals for SAC on an Any Permitted fare are <rummage> King's Cross, St Pancras, Moorgate, Old Street and Liverpool Street. Curiously, if you have a ticket routed 'AAA ST ALBNS ABY' ("Also available at"), your terminals are now: Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Euston, London Bridge and St Pancras (and not MOG, OLD, LST). I think this explains it - does this constitute an itinerary I wonder?

ThisIsSurbiton said:

NRE's fare group data says that the valid terminals for SAC on an Any Permitted fare are <rummage> King's Cross, St Pancras, Moorgate, Old Street and Liverpool Street. Curiously, if you have a ticket routed 'AAA ST ALBNS ABY' ("Also available at"), your terminals are now: Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Euston, London Bridge and St Pancras (and not MOG, OLD, LST). I think this explains it - does this constitute an itinerary I wonder?

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So the fundamental question still becomes is that intentional, or an error...

swt_passenger said:

So the fundamental question still becomes is that intentional, or an error...

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I don't think it really matters; an ordinary person who isn't sure of what stations their ticket is valid from, or who is considering getting a new season ticket and wants to see if it fits their needs, might well use the NRE season ticket calculator in that way. The TOC would struggle mightily to argue the fact that "it is an error" (if it even is) has any bearing on the validity.

ThisIsSurbiton said:

NRE's fare group data says that the valid terminals for SAC on an Any Permitted fare are <rummage> King's Cross, St Pancras, Moorgate, Old Street and Liverpool Street. Curiously, if you have a ticket routed 'AAA ST ALBNS ABY' ("Also available at"), your terminals are now: Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Euston, London Bridge and St Pancras (and not MOG, OLD, LST). I think this explains it - does this constitute an itinerary I wonder?

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The season ticket calculator is partly driven - as far as I can tell - by the London Terminals Mapping (LTM) data feed and, as you say, this gives London Bridge as a terminal for St Albans City on route 40075 (AAA ST ALBNS ABY).

Since late 2017 until recently(*) the data quality in the LTM feed has been dreadful with many terminals missing altogether or only given for a subset og valid routes. In almost every case the errors worked against the passenger - if this is an error then this might be one case where it works the other way. Since the LTM data doesn't (? - again AFIAK) form part of the routeing checks performed by TISs this hasn't so far been a major problem for passengers who are potentially disadvantaged by the errors (although it has meant that some season tickets haven't been offered.)


(* - I've just had a quick check now and since I last looked in August and it seems lots of the errors have been corrected - so e.g. Bradford and Blackburn now have terminals defined which is good news - time for a closer look.)

JB_B said:

Since the LTM data doesn't (? - again AFIAK) form part of the routeing checks performed by TISs this hasn't so far been a major problem for passengers who are potentially disadvantaged by the errors (although it has meant that some season tickets haven't been offered.)

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It doesn't in any I know about, and there is no mention of it (or its replacement that can handle all fare groups) in the Routeing Guide documentation - even if there had been, the data quality isn't yet good enough to use other than in an advisory "you can also travel to/from" feature.