East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

richieb1971 · 20 Oct 2018

Well, Stansted planners were only considering the lines connected at the time. You have a better connection from Leicester or peterborough than you do from bedford. Stansted is another place that needs expansion thought out it's heavily used. Trains only go north right?

RailUK Forums

gazthomas · 20 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
Well, Stansted planners were only considering the lines connected at the time. You have a better connection from Leicester or peterborough than you do from bedford. Stansted is another place that needs expansion thought out it's heavily used. Trains only go north right?

To London Liverpool Street

Tobbes · 20 Oct 2018

Bedford to Heathrow via EWR really would be the great way round, though. From next year, it'll be a single change onto Crossrail at Farringdon, so I'd struggle to see the attraction of going all the way to Oxford to come back again.

swt_passenger · 20 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
Did a Heathrow to Bedford yesterday. I was wondering if there is currently a "DIRECT" viable connection between the 2 stations that EWR can use if the Bicester/Bletchley section was completed? I think I read elsewhere in the thread that this might be considered in the future. I'm not talking about a branded train called the "EWR Heathrow Express", just a train that terminates at Heathrow that is priced on distance traveled not a premium £32 in one direction jobby. Mind you it was £55 for 2 going the Piccadilly via STP route. £32 is just to Paddington currently, so you would have to factor in the other £25 to Bedford.

If such a route could/does exist how many stops are we talking (which ones) and what sort of duration would it take? I did Heathrow to Bedford starting at 20:16 and arrived at Bedford at 22:10, this was the fastest route. Albeit with a change that involved walking 15 minutes through STP subways. We only just caught the EMT train so it was a bit dicey...

Suggestion in GW route study was that if EWR runs south of Oxford it would subsume existing stopping services. They currently split at Didcot pending electrification. Bedford to Oxford is proposed to take 1 hour, Oxford to Langley plus a notional 5 or 10 mins to Heathrow would probably be another hour depending on calling pattern? I doubt there’d be much in it time wise, but are (probably) small EWR DMUs the best stock to take up scarce paths into Heathrow, compared with maybe 8 car EMUs from Oxford?

richieb1971 · 20 Oct 2018

gazthomas said:
To London Liverpool Street

Since the trains I've seen on the Cross country route say Stansted I'm assuming Stansted is a terminating station in both directions then. Or does the Liverpool St run go the Cambridge Route?

Tobbes said:
Bedford to Heathrow via EWR really would be the great way round, though. From next year, it'll be a single change onto Crossrail at Farringdon, so I'd struggle to see the attraction of going all the way to Oxford to come back again.

A Farringdon connection would be awesome of course. Going there would take less than the 55 mins it does on the Piccadilly and you have a direct connection to THL before the STP passengers get on board. The problem you have with air flight though is that your train ticket costs are different depending on the flight times. If you use a trunk route your going to pay through the nose for that connection in peak times. We paid £88 for 2 on the outbound flight because it was at 11am, with the 2 hour safety period thats taking you through the peak times in the morning. There is one thing peak passengers don't like on class 700's, is suitcases. Mind you, its a bigger problem on the Piccadilly as the suit cases are usually piled near the doors. The EWR still has the attraction of not going through London and changing. For the commuter its fine you just carry a little bag, but when your carrying luggage a direct connection is always favorable.

Railwaysceptic · 20 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
Did a Heathrow to Bedford yesterday. I was wondering if there is currently a "DIRECT" viable connection between the 2 stations that EWR can use if the Bicester/Bletchley section was completed? I think I read elsewhere in the thread that this might be considered in the future. I'm not talking about a branded train called the "EWR Heathrow Express", just a train that terminates at Heathrow that is priced on distance traveled not a premium £32 in one direction jobby. Mind you it was £55 for 2 going the Piccadilly via STP route. £32 is just to Paddington currently, so you would have to factor in the other £25 to Bedford.

If such a route could/does exist how many stops are we talking (which ones) and what sort of duration would it take? I did Heathrow to Bedford starting at 20:16 and arrived at Bedford at 22:10, this was the fastest route. Albeit with a change that involved walking 15 minutes through STP subways. We only just caught the EMT train so it was a bit dicey.

We have 2 airports that are currently very easy to get to from Bedford and 2 that are substantially a lot harder. If EWR did a Stansted to Heathrow and vice versa it could pick up on all airport traffic. Not necessarily from one airport to the other, just from the intermediate stations obviously. With Bedford at the half way point or thereabouts it would make Bedford an attractive rail option for air passengers.

There are some very vague, totally unspecified, aspirations to extend East-West Rail to Heathrow when the whole thing has been up and running for a few years. I'll believe it when I see it.

TheDavibob · 20 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
Since the trains I've seen on the Cross country route say Stansted I'm assuming Stansted is a terminating station in both directions then. Or does the Liverpool St run go the Cambridge Route?

It's at the end of a triangle on a spur off the West Anglia Mainline (Liverpool Street to Cambridge), so trains can go both north to Cambridge (and beyond) and south to Liverpool Street. Northwards trains are very constrained by tracks and platforms (particularly DMUs).

richieb1971 · 20 Oct 2018

Railwaysceptic said:
There are some very vague, totally unspecified, aspirations to extend East-West Rail to Heathrow when the whole thing has been up and running for a few years. I'll believe it when I see it.

Well this thread is full of vague aspirations and unspecified routes and timetables. Keeps the thread going if nothing else.

1) We have 2 or 3 central routes been volunteered, but route C seems preferable, although going through St Neots or Sandy is still up in the air. With a last pitch effort to go east north of Bedford being touted around.
2) Vague aspirations about going beyond Oxford and further south.
3) How Bedford Midland will be expanded/enhanced to accommodate extra trains beyond 2 car units. Mainly a problem due to car parking and THL terminating in through platforms.

For the record, putting a platform on the fast will ease problems, not slow down the fasts. It will be slower for an EMT train to cross tracks to P3 and back onto the fast than it will be to stay on the fast. Nothing ever passes a BDM stopper on the fasts whilst a fast is in the station. Its the only way to currently do it.

4) Where a Bedford Parkway might be north or south (or both) of BDM? With possible ideas to create loops or terminations outside of Bedford Midland. How Wixams will play into this?
5) That the Marston Vale line is not fit for purpose if a continuous 100mph running speed is the aspiration. With a new alignment proposed (if briefly) to keep the line speeds up due to the cost of the Vale line exceeding expectations.

Is the first work still penciled in for November 2018? I think the route planner said something about lifting the old mothballed track sometime around then.

Tobbes · 20 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
A Farringdon connection would be awesome of course. Going there would take less than the 55 mins it does on the Piccadilly and you have a direct connection to THL before the STP passengers get on board. The problem you have with air flight though is that your train ticket costs are different depending on the flight times. If you use a trunk route your going to pay through the nose for that connection in peak times. We paid £88 for 2 on the outbound flight because it was at 11am, with the 2 hour safety period thats taking you through the peak times in the morning. There is one thing peak passengers don't like on class 700's, is suitcases. Mind you, its a bigger problem on the Piccadilly as the suit cases are usually piled near the doors. The EWR still has the attraction of not going through London and changing. For the commuter its fine you just carry a little bag, but when your carrying luggage a direct connection is always favorable.

That's all fair, Richie, and as I've had to make the Ipswich - Heathrow trip with large luggage a couple of times in the last month, I agree that the Piccadilly is absolutely no fun at all in the peak (and neither is the Central to Holborn, either). So I'm totally on-board with the minimum nuber of changes (which is why the lack of Shenfield-LHR trains stings a little - be lovely to get on a train from it's starting point with time to get on and sort luggage etc, even if it was slower end-to-end than changing onto CR at Liverpool St LL). But would an EWR Bedford to Heathrow service be all that much cheaper in the peak? Not sure. It would almost certainly be slower!

swt_passenger · 20 Oct 2018

Railwaysceptic said:
There are some very vague, totally unspecified, aspirations to extend East-West Rail to Heathrow when the whole thing has been up and running for a few years. I'll believe it when I see it.

I tend to agree. Extending to Reading is only ever shown as some sort of ‘possibility’. Does Oxford now being the probable electrification boundary seem to reduce the likelihood of through services, or increase them thanks to bi-modes?

II · 20 Oct 2018

swt_passenger said:
I tend to agree. Extending to Reading is only ever shown as some sort of ‘possibility’. Does Oxford now being the probable electrification boundary seem to reduce the likelihood of through services, or increase them thanks to bi-modes?

I still think, longer term, that a through regional express service from Bristol via Bath and Swindon to Oxford and Bedford and eventually Cambridge/Norwich should be the aspiration. It ticks many additional boxes that E-W Rail is already going to tick, including through trains again between Bristol/Bath and Oxford and the east. It also offers a sensible service that a couple of reopened stations at Royal Wootton Bassett and Grove (for Wantage) could utilise.

Bi-modes would suit that nicely.

cle · 20 Oct 2018

Yes I agree. Just as Cambridge is doing very well, Bristol is too as non-London place with high-skill, creative, high-paying jobs.

Bath is useful for tourists, and you'd have lots of fun new journey pairs (Bicester-Bath, Bristol - MK) etc - it's quite the arc. Lots of London rail and M25 relief benefits too.

Tobbes · 20 Oct 2018

II said:
I still think, longer term, that a through regional express service from Bristol via Bath and Swindon to Oxford and Bedford and eventually Cambridge/Norwich should be the aspiration. It ticks many additional boxes that E-W Rail is already going to tick, including through trains again between Bristol/Bath and Oxford and the east. It also offers a sensible service that a couple of reopened stations at Royal Wootton Bassett and Grove (for Wantage) could utilise.

Bi-modes would suit that nicely.

That's a very reasonable aspiration - but it would work best as an extension of the Cambs-Oxford expresses as otherwise the end-to-end times would be much slower than via-London.

richieb1971 · 20 Oct 2018

I am wondering if the MML or ECML will have some sort of diagram as shown above so that the options are open to alternate the route of trains if need be. I am well aware the height of the tracks is going to be different, concentrating more on the 4 corners. At the moment it seems as though we are talking a Tamworth station type of diagram where upper and lower platforms just cross each other.

edwin_m · 20 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
Did a Heathrow to Bedford yesterday. I was wondering if there is currently a "DIRECT" viable connection between the 2 stations that EWR can use if the Bicester/Bletchley section was completed? I think I read elsewhere in the thread that this might be considered in the future. I'm not talking about a branded train called the "EWR Heathrow Express", just a train that terminates at Heathrow that is priced on distance traveled not a premium £32 in one direction jobby. Mind you it was £55 for 2 going the Piccadilly via STP route. £32 is just to Paddington currently, so you would have to factor in the other £25 to Bedford.

If such a route could/does exist how many stops are we talking (which ones) and what sort of duration would it take? I did Heathrow to Bedford starting at 20:16 and arrived at Bedford at 22:10, this was the fastest route. Albeit with a change that involved walking 15 minutes through STP subways. We only just caught the EMT train so it was a bit dicey.

We have 2 airports that are currently very easy to get to from Bedford and 2 that are substantially a lot harder. If EWR did a Stansted to Heathrow and vice versa it could pick up on all airport traffic. Not necessarily from one airport to the other, just from the intermediate stations obviously. With Bedford at the half way point or thereabouts it would make Bedford an attractive rail option for air passengers.

If EWR was electrified then its service could possibly be extended from Oxford/Reading to Heathrow via the future Western Link. However I don't think it would be time-competitive from as far east as Bedford, although it might be less hassle with luggage.

edwin_m · 20 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
View attachment 54048

I am wondering if the MML or ECML will have some sort of diagram as shown above so that the options are open to alternate the route of trains if need be. I am well aware the height of the tracks is going to be different, concentrating more on the 4 corners. At the moment it seems as though we are talking a Tamworth station type of diagram where upper and lower platforms just cross each other.

As the route through Bedford and the ECML crossing haven't been fixed it's a bit premature to think about this! However connections are very expensive, use up a lot of land so would only be provided if really needed, and trains on the connecting curves would be too far from the interchange station to stop within a sensible walking distance. The current route into Bedford Midland would probably be retained as a connection from the MML north to EWR west, but I can't really see any others happening.

Tobbes · 20 Oct 2018

edwin_m said:
As the route through Bedford and the ECML crossing haven't been fixed it's a bit premature to think about this! However connections are very expensive, use up a lot of land so would only be provided if really needed, and trains on the connecting curves would be too far from the interchange station to stop within a sensible walking distance. The current route into Bedford Midland would probably be retained as a connection from the MML north to EWR west, but I can't really see any others happening.

Surely it will depend on what the connections offer in terms of additional connectivity and journey options. For instance, it is hard to see what N/S connections onto the ECML from Cambridge would actually add (other than redundancy), making it hard for the business case for it. Bedford N/S may have more potential (e.g., Bedford - Peterborough rather than going via Corby, Kettering, Stamford).

alexx · 21 Oct 2018

richieb1971 said:
Is the first work still penciled in for November 2018? I think the route planner said something about lifting the old mothballed track sometime around then.

There's been some work going on the past few weeks around the Bicester/Launton area as previously commented, and there was something going on near the Charbridge Lane crossing when I drove across it the other day.

Railfuture is suggesting that:

construction work requiring the TWA powers will not commence until at least spring 2020, although that would not prevent preparation works on operational railway land from being performed earlier

Elecman · 21 Oct 2018

The line at Launton LXing has been lifted, the crossing now has no DNO power neither does the one on Charbridge Road

Andyjs247 · 21 Oct 2018

Lots of activity around Bicester in the last week or so. On 17 October Charbridge Lane level crossing (A4421 Bicester Perimeter Road) had its barriers removed. They have been replaced with farm type gates across the tracks either side of the road, but now nothing to protect the road. Track remains towards Bicester. And near Jarvis Lane the line has been slewed to connect with the Up Bletchley at Gavray Junction (previously it ended at buffer stops and connected into the Down side) see photo from 10 October.

alexx said:
There's been some work going on the past few weeks around the Bicester/Launton area as previously commented, and there was something going on near the Charbridge Lane crossing when I drove across it the other day.

Railfuture is suggesting that:

Track panels which had been stacked by the line at Charbridge Lane were removed last week. Meanwhile a contractors compound has been established at Bicester Road, Launton (work which the TWAO Application suggests would happen from December 2019).

ntg · 24 Oct 2018

Tobbes said:
Surely it will depend on what the connections offer in terms of additional connectivity and journey options. For instance, it is hard to see what N/S connections onto the ECML from Cambridge would actually add (other than redundancy), making it hard for the business case for it. Bedford N/S may have more potential (e.g., Bedford - Peterborough rather than going via Corby, Kettering, Stamford).

I don't think we'll see the central route exist at all. Friends at DfT tell me the BCR is now <1 and will probably only increase to a viable level many years from now if MHCLG settle on building new settlements along the route.

gordonthemoron · 24 Oct 2018

too many acronyms

Tobbes · 24 Oct 2018

gordonthemoron said:
too many acronyms

ntg said:
I don't think we'll see the central route exist at all. Friends at DfT tell me the BCR is now <1 and will probably only increase to a viable level many years from now if MHCLG settle on building new settlements along the route.

Try this:

"I don't think we'll see the central route exist at all. Friends at the Department for Transport tell me the Benefits to Cost Ratio is now below 1:1 and will probably only increase to a viable level many years from now if the Ministry for Housing, Commuities and Local Government settle on building new settlements along the route."

If true, then Grayling has quite a lot of explaining to do....

eastdyke · 24 Oct 2018

ntg said:
I don't think we'll see the central route exist at all. Friends at DfT tell me the BCR is now <1 and will probably only increase to a viable level many years from now if MHCLG settle on building new settlements along the route.

Well if we are going to build a million new homes by 2050 on the green belt - sorry CaMkOx* arc - it will not be done without a railway to get all those commuters to London - sorry Cambridge and Oxford.
And yes it is likely to need a Development Corporation to both progress the developments and to capture part of the land value uplift for infrastructure.

*CaMkOx - Cambridge-Milton Keynes-Oxford.

muddythefish · 24 Oct 2018

ntg said:
I don't think we'll see the central route exist at all. Friends at DfT tell me the BCR is now <1 and will probably only increase to a viable level many years from now if MHCLG settle on building new settlements along the route.

But the East-West motorway will of course go ahead.

Plus ca change

cle · 24 Oct 2018

Who doesn't love four car diesel services on inter-city routes, linking electrified mainlines! Great way to kick things off.

aylesbury · 24 Oct 2018

I think the new road is going to take a great deal of business from the rail line also the DFT do not seem to have the same keenness for the rail project.I can see more cut backs on the project, the worst mistake is no electrification it could have kickstarted Didcot Oxford wiring. Government bias to roads is becoming obvious and locally many people are worried at the prospect of the new road as their towns and villages will be subsumed by new housing.If the road goes through Winslow its effects will be felt as far away as Wendover and northwards Newport Pagnell. All the A roads will see a build up of traffic that will quickly overwhelm the new road.

work-traveller · 25 Oct 2018

Enabling works for phase 2 are going well. Track removal from Bicester to Claydon is complete and preparations are well advanced for the WCML Christmas blockade during which the OLE will be lowered under Bletchley Flyover, to facilitate all the remedial works on that structure next year. This includes permanently removing the connections from the flyover and the WCML OLE system.

richieb1971 · 25 Oct 2018

work-traveller said:
Enabling works for phase 2 are going well. Track removal from Bicester to Claydon is complete and preparations are well advanced for the WCML Christmas blockade during which the OLE will be lowered under Bletchley Flyover, to facilitate all the remedial works on that structure next year. This includes permanently removing the connections from the flyover and the WCML OLE system.

Exciting stuff. Especially since work is moving closer to Bedfordshire and making the dream a reality.

As for the central section not happening. Once the homes are built there won't be any alignments left for a railway. Some politicians will make way for newer politicians, something will get lost in the mix up and the land will be sold lock, stock and barrel to a housing estate association. For me the BCR is only part of it, having an alternative to a road solution is paramount to me. Especially if linking airports is the eventual goal where you need to be somewhere at a specific time. Trains usually guarantee a timetable and that for me is peace of mind. Besides the benefits of travelling east and west from Bedford by rail is something I see as a pay back for closing these links in the 60's. I am tired of seeing other parts of the country get something out of rail and my town is always left behind.

gordonthemoron · 25 Oct 2018

work-traveller said:
Enabling works for phase 2 are going well. Track removal from Bicester to Claydon is complete and preparations are well advanced for the WCML Christmas blockade during which the OLE will be lowered under Bletchley Flyover, to facilitate all the remedial works on that structure next year. This includes permanently removing the connections from the flyover and the WCML OLE system.

What Christmas WCML blockage? The nationalrail website only mentions a reduction in services to West Midlands, Manchester and North Wales, nothing about Euston/MKC being closed

East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

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