TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

dilbertphil · 24 Oct 2018

Despite what is being said publicly, it's been pretty much accepted internally that we will not see these trains in service this year. They haven't officially been released to TPE yet, they can't touch them without a CAF employee being present. No staff bar a couple of trainers have had any sort of training on them and nobody knows when this will start. It's wildly optimistic to think we will see them this year, if I were to guess I would be saying March next year.

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driver_m · 24 Oct 2018

Andy, just to mention an earlier point. TPE are stabling some of their stuff at Edge Hill .Currently two train s come off at the minute and this is to continue. There's not much room though. Only got a pit road which last saw regular use during the MK3 era which isn't currently used. Shed rd2 could be used once CAF vacate Edge Hill. No idea which of TPE's new fleet will be coming to Edge Hill.

EE Andy b1 · 24 Oct 2018

Erniescooper said:
I think it will be more than 3 stabled at Longsight as all the the departures from the west side of the Pennines come off Longsight ECS

This was said in an earlier post regarding Mk5a stock.

I presume but don't know that TPE Class 397s and maybe Class 802s will be stabling at Edge Hill, they gotta go somewhere!

Starmill · 24 Oct 2018

BMIFlyer said:
Thanks to the PC brigade for that one.

I find it bizarre that TPE's PR was such a disaster on the matter. If you have a franchise agreement you do what you can to stick to it, not let the media dictate it.

Unless of course, there was more to it than "the PC brigade".

Some would say company policy wasn't thought through properly, and that was compounded by poor communication from the company. Regardless of all of this, TransPennine Express are some way short of what they bid, and this looks likey to get worse before it gets better.

Chester1 · 24 Oct 2018

dilbertphil said:
Despite what is being said publicly, it's been pretty much accepted internally that we will not see these trains in service this year. They haven't officially been released to TPE yet, they can't touch them without a CAF employee being present. No staff bar a couple of trainers have had any sort of training on them and nobody knows when this will start. It's wildly optimistic to think we will see them this year, if I were to guess I would be saying March next year.

You seem to have a different view to @BMIFlyer

Will the extra recovery time at Manchester Airport be possible without any extra units in service by December?

_toommm_ · 24 Oct 2018

Chester1 said:
You seem to have a different view to @BMIFlyer

Will the extra recovery time at Manchester Airport be possible without any extra units in service by December?

Probably not without dropping a unit off of a double set diagram. The 08:53 from the Airport to Cleethorpes is a prime candidate as it's just after the morning peak and is rarely packed.

dilbertphil · 24 Oct 2018

I do have a different view and it's my opinion based on what I've seen and heard and I hope I'm wrong as we desperately need these trains in service. However I just don't see how it's going to happen when not one driver has completed the training course for the DT and Mk5a coaches and no one knows when this training is going to begin.

37201xoIM · 24 Oct 2018

Starmill said:
I find it bizarre that TPE's PR was such a disaster on the matter. If you have a franchise agreement you do what you can to stick to it, not let the media dictate it.

Unless of course, there was more to it than "the PC brigade".

Some would say company policy wasn't thought through properly, and that was compounded by poor communication from the company. Regardless of all of this, TransPennine Express are some way short of what they bid, and this looks likey to get worse before it gets better.

In short, there was indeed more to it, and not just within TPE.

37201xoIM · 24 Oct 2018

BMIFlyer said:
There was never a statement saying “May 2018” so unsure where people have dreamt that one up.

The official line was “Summer 2018” which then went to Autumn due to the delays in driver training on the locomotives and minor delays at Velim.

There will if the current plan stays on schedule, be at least one set in service before Christmas.

Delays are inevitable for NEW rolling stock that has never been used in the U.K. before.

All those of you thinking the Mk5A intro into service will suddenly fix all the North route issues are sadly misinformed. They will improve things yes (should be next to zero overcrowding) providing passengers use all the coaches provided to them and don’t clog up the vestibules after boarding as they do now.

As for delays etc those things will only get better from December (hopefully) with the turnaround extensions at MIA.

Dec '17 per franchise agreement... possibly a document primarily of historic interest, some may feel! (Mark 3s by May '17, by the way [though in fairness initially possibly for crew training, perhaps until Dec '17 - the FA is vague].)

In my view, suppressed demand on the Diggle route is such that 5-car sets, be they Mk5 or 802, will quite simply not be enough - to say nothing (not least as it's off-topic!) of the 397s on the Notlob corridor...

LNW-GW Joint · 24 Oct 2018

YorkshireBear said:
New trains are always late because the people who demand the entry into service dates and those that agree to them are very rarely anything to do with the process..... It is the same in all elements of engineering!!! While they might be late, if you spoke to the people doing it originally they are probably on time!

It's not just the PR for the new trains though, it's about contracts and penalties.
TPE have their franchise commitments, and CAF will have agreed a delivery/acceptance schedule.
They both have to meet these schedules to avoid financial penalties, not to mention the adverse impact on TPE revenues and onward cascade of stock if they cannot deliver the capacity promised to DfT.
We know some (not all) of the franchise requirements, but have no idea of the TPE/CAF contractual terms.
The owning ROSCO will also be in the contractual loop, and also Network Rail for acceptance on the network.
Northern got their order in with CAF about 5 months before TPE closed their deal.
That might also be a factor in progress.

BeHereNow · 24 Oct 2018

BMIFlyer said:
There was never a statement saying “May 2018” so unsure where people have dreamt that one up.

See the last line of your post #72 from the Mk3s thread:

BMIFlyer said:
Update as of today on this project:

2x Mk3 sets to be used
Crew training starting within a month
Both sets will be placed on the Liverpool to Scarborough route, but starting and ending the diagrams each day at either Longsight or Manchester Airport (1 set will start or end at each location - in essence one will stable overnight on depot and the other at the airport).

This will free up 2 class 185s, to strengthen other services / speed up maintenance / overhauls, etc.

The primary aim of the mk3s being used is to train drivers on class 68 operation with a trailing load.

In May 2018 the Mk5A sets will begin operation and the Mk3s will depart.

Ben Bow · 24 Oct 2018

A key date is 15 November, this is when TPE are expecting to accept the first rake of mk.5's and can begin training crews on them. Time will tell....

TBSchenker · 24 Oct 2018

BMIFlyer said:
As for delays etc those things will only get better from December (hopefully) with the turnaround extensions at MIA

A temporary fix, though, as once the Mk5s are in on the Middlesbrough diagrams they won’t be interworking with the 802s on the Newcastle diagrams (at the Airport), so all eyes on May 2019 TT change to see how that’ll work with contingencies.

TBSchenker · 24 Oct 2018

BeHereNow said:
See the last line of your post #72 from the Mk3s thread:

Pretty much conclusive!

Also the internal TPE poster mentions 397 introduction Winter 2018. Hmm...

EE Andy b1 · 24 Oct 2018

Not really for this thread but....

Is there any one project at the moment whether it be traction/rolling stock or infrastructure that is actually on time?

I realise there is a heck of a lot going on all over the UK railway network at the moment but I'm sure things were never this bad. Some delays yes!

Government accepting very unreasonable time scales proposed from new TOC winners just to get that particular TOC franchised for supposedly the best returns and interfering too much in infrastructure projects.

I have no faith in anything the DfT and government come up with.

Sorry for the rant but I can see the industry that I work in just getting worse, when after all these years of investment really should be getting better and the passengers (customers) are really getting a raw deal.

corsaVXR · 24 Oct 2018

EE Andy b1 said:
Not really for this thread but....

Is there any one project at the moment whether it be traction/rolling stock or infrastructure that is actually on time?

I realise there is a heck of a lot going on all over the UK railway network at the moment but I'm sure things were never this bad. Some delays yes!

Well, CAF are bringing 5 different rolling stock designs online simultaneously - Mk5, Mk5a, 397, 331 and 195 - then there's the 196 and Wales units also. Their resources are probably stretched thin.

Spartacus · 24 Oct 2018

Hardly worse than the heavily delayed introduction of the 60s and 158s, so far anyway.

rich-leeds · 24 Oct 2018

Indeed - the surprise seems to be that anyone realistically thought some of this stuff could be delivered so quickly and easily- especially with so many new types. There's something structural at present (starting with DfT) about over-promising. To that end, I think the TOCs find themselves in a hard place at times.

LittleAH · 24 Oct 2018

Goldie said:
I'm certainly staying away from TPE as much as possible until they remember how to run trains which arrive when they're supposed to and actually reach their destination. I live in Scarborough, and it's a treat at the moment if your TPE service actually travels that far rather than getting cancelled at York or Malton. The thing is, the problems that cause cancellation (staff shortages, and delays?) are not ones that the introduction of the Mk5s will solve.

Isn't the problem with Scarborough two fold?

1) The Man Pic - Leeds stopper causing delays and 2) Lack of rolling stock.

1 will be improved with the splitting of the Man Pic - Leeds stopper. 2 will be fixed when the Mk5's come into service as turnaround at Scarborough will go from 10 to 70 mins.

Greybeard33 · 24 Oct 2018

TBSchenker said:
A temporary fix, though, as once the Mk5s are in on the Middlesbrough diagrams they won’t be interworking with the 802s on the Newcastle diagrams (at the Airport), so all eyes on May 2019 TT change to see how that’ll work with contingencies.

The TfN Rail North Committee Train Service Planning report, https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Item-5-Train-Service-Planning.pdf, states that TPE's timetable bid for May 2019 includes continuation of extended turnrounds at Manchester Airport. That means that interworking of the Newcastle and Middlesbrough diagrams will continue until at least December 2019. So Mk5As cannot be used on the Middlesbrough route, unless they also go to Newcastle.

Ih8earlies · 25 Oct 2018

EE Andy b1 said:
Is there any one project at the moment whether it be traction/rolling stock or infrastructure that is actually on time?

The TPE Hitachis are already under test. Which is early going by the previously mentioned TPE plan.

LNW-GW Joint · 25 Oct 2018

The Lime St upgrade was said to be "on time".
But that was after significant delays in starting the project (and it's not finished anyway, Edge Hill-Ditton still to come).

I'm not sure the first TPE 802 is much of a pointer.
It's a one-off, with the rest of the build well into next year.
And all 80x are suffering from a variety of acceptance problems, 12 months into service.

jopsuk · 25 Oct 2018

Hopefully with TPE 802s having one for route clearance and staff training so far ahead of the rest of the build (and with all the various acceptance issues being ironed out by other operators) should, in theory, lead to swift introduction when the bulk are built.

BeHereNow · 25 Oct 2018

TPE's own website and Twitter feed have stated a number of different due dates!

Bletchleyite · 25 Oct 2018

LittleAH said:
Isn't the problem with Scarborough two fold?

1) The Man Pic - Leeds stopper causing delays and 2) Lack of rolling stock.

1 will be improved with the splitting of the Man Pic - Leeds stopper. 2 will be fixed when the Mk5's come into service as turnaround at Scarborough will go from 10 to 70 mins.

70 minutes? Really? That's rather long and surprising.

The_Engineer · 25 Oct 2018

EE Andy b1 said:
Is there any one project at the moment whether it be traction/rolling stock or infrastructure that is actually on time?

Derby area remodelling - track/signals/platforms went smoothly, all the transitional stages and hand-back were on time or even early......

EE Andy b1 · 25 Oct 2018

The_Engineer said:
Derby area remodelling - track/signals/platforms went smoothly, all the transitional stages and hand-back were on time or even early......

Well that is certainly good to hear given the size of the project. Let's hope Network Rail can keep it up.

The_Train · 25 Oct 2018

68025 has just passed me working a Bletchley-Manchester test. Anyone know what set it was hauling?

mikemcniven · 25 Oct 2018

Set TP04 was out with 68025 it ran Manchester - Warrington - Bletchley - Crewe - Wilmslow - Heald Green - Manchester meaning it's now back to the "Correct Way" around after it been returned via a more direct route on it's last test after suffering with wheel flats, which it no longer has, seemed to all be going well today, and even arrived at Wilmslow, where I snapped it, EARLY!

Transpennine Express 68025 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

Transpennine Express 12804 by Mike McNiven, on Flickr

EE Andy b1 · 25 Oct 2018

Good pics again there and good to have a Mk5a set out testing again.

TPE Mark 5A coaching stock progress

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