Cash Machines at Govia Thameslink Railway stations to charge a fee

infobleep · 27 Oct 2018

I have seen on Twitter and I could not find a thread here, that charging to withdraw cash has started to be introduced at railway stations managed by GTR.

Association of British Commuters:

**Latest Update on GTR ATM charges** Compare the full statements of @SouthernRailUK and @Cardtronics here. Cash machine charges will be all over the GTR network by the end of the month - should long-suffering passengers and local businesses be the ones to pay the price?

https://twitter.com/ABCommuters/status/1055853149100142593?s=19

In press statements GTR has said it was a highly regrettable decision Cardtronics have taken and Cardtronics said the fees banks pay ATM providers has reduced and when they approached GTR to ask them to accept a lower commission they said no.

If both are true then to me it suggests that Cardtronics were going to make less money, perhaps even to the point of it not being viable and asked for reduction in commission. GTR said no so Cardtronics started charging. GTR then considerd that to be regettiable. Perhaps GTR think Cardtronics should have taken the hit with the recuded profit.

I read online that this will disadvantage those who have financial issues and where no other cash machine exists nearby that doesn't charge fees

If it's somewhere like Haywards Heath I wouldn't be surprised if Waitrose had a free cash machine. However there maybe other stations where no cash machine exists nearby.

Will this spread to other station runs by other TOCs?

RailUK Forums

Fred26 · 27 Oct 2018

Surely it'll spread everywhere, not just stations. I read an article on the BBC app a couple of months ago that was suggesting this would start happening.

Tetchytyke · 27 Oct 2018

The interchange fee has dropped for machines that have a lot of machines nearby, and have risen for machines where there are none nearby.

I imagine that Cardtronics have attempted to use this as leverage to pay less to GTR, who have said no, regardless of whether the actual machines will be affected.

route:oxford · 27 Oct 2018

infobleep said:
I read online that this will disadvantage those who have financial issues and where no other cash machine exists nearby that doesn't charge fees.

If you have a card pay by card.

I've never understood why people who claim to have "financial issues" refuse to use cards to pay.

Right now, I've got the following offers by my Banks...

Halifax:-

10% Cashback at Spar, Waitrose, Coop, Robert Dyas
+6 other offers

First Direct:-

£5 off when you spend £40 on fuel at BP
+12 other offers

American Express

£5 off when you spend £20 at Amazon
£50 off when you spend £100 at Harrods
+25 other offers
Next month there'll be the £5 off when you spend £10 across tens of thousands of independent stores.

I save an absolute fortune every year by careful use of plastic and haven't used cash this year.

curly42 · 27 Oct 2018

What sort of charge are we talking about here ? I don't have any cards and have never used one of these machines so I have no idea of what sort of charges exist.

Teflon Lettuce · 27 Oct 2018

route:oxford said:
If you have a card pay by card.

I've never understood why people who claim to have "financial issues" refuse to use cards to pay.

Right now, I've got the following offers by my Banks...

Halifax:-

10% Cashback at Spar, Waitrose, Coop, Robert Dyas
+6 other offers

First Direct:-

£5 off when you spend £40 on fuel at BP
+12 other offers

American Express

£5 off when you spend £20 at Amazon
£50 off when you spend £100 at Harrods
+25 other offers
Next month there'll be the £5 off when you spend £10 across tens of thousands of independent stores.

I save an absolute fortune every year by careful use of plastic and haven't used cash this year.

good for you... but there are many people who, through no fault of their own, can only get either a basic bank account or a cash card account.. neither of which can be used for card transactions as they do not provide debit cards... and it is usually the poorest in society that are stuck with these accounts and are therefore more likely to have to use a machine that charges a fee to access their money

cf111 · 27 Oct 2018

The machine in Inverness station has charged for withdrawals since it was installed. There are at least five machines (Clydesdale Bank on Academy/Union St. x2, Post Office & Semichem on Queensgate and the Co-Op on Church St.) <2 minutes walk out of the station which are free but I suppose some people must be using the one in the station as it has been there for many years.

route:oxford · 27 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
good for you... but there are many people who, through no fault of their own, can only get either a basic bank account or a cash card account neither of which can be used for card transactions as they do not provide debit cards... and it is usually the poorest in society that are stuck with these accounts and are therefore more likely to have to use a machine that charges a fee to access their money

Are you deliberately lying or simply repeating an urban myth?

johntea · 27 Oct 2018

Basic bank accounts or 'cash cards' should allow card transactions, and have a limit on the amount you can spend with no overdraft facility or any nonsense like that (I'm not sure if that is how they actually work but that is how common sense would dictate they should!)

Otherwise a user would have to withdraw a minimum of £10 each time in cash, even if all they wanted to do was buy a coffee!

route:oxford · 27 Oct 2018

johntea said:
Basic bank accounts or 'cash cards' should allow card transactions, and have a limit on the amount you can spend with no overdraft facility or any nonsense like that (I'm not sure if that is how they actually work but that is how common sense would dictate they should!)

Otherwise a user would have to withdraw a minimum of £10 each time in cash, even if all they wanted to do was buy a coffee!

That's exactly how they do work, that's why all the major banks, contrary to the outrageous nonsense spouted by "Teflon Lettuce", issue debit cards with their basic bank accounts.

Here's the first three that I found...

https://www.barclays.co.uk/current-accounts/basic-account/
https://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/currentaccounts/cashminder
https://uk.virginmoney.com/virgin/current-account/essential-current-account.jsp

krus_aragon · 27 Oct 2018

One personal example I can give is of once having no funds in my (debit card linked) current account, and having to use the cash card of my instant access ISA at a cashpoint before buying a ticket. It's an obscure example, but I couldn't have used that cash card at the ticket office.

Puffing Devil · 27 Oct 2018

krus_aragon said:
One personal example I can give is of once having no funds in my (debit card linked) current account, and having to use the cash card of my instant access ISA at a cashpoint before buying a ticket. It's an obscure example, but I couldn't have used that cash card at the ticket office.

This wouldn't happen if you had a credit card. Any reason you don't carry one?

Bletchleyite · 27 Oct 2018

krus_aragon said:
One personal example I can give is of once having no funds in my (debit card linked) current account, and having to use the cash card of my instant access ISA at a cashpoint before buying a ticket. It's an obscure example, but I couldn't have used that cash card at the ticket office.

Get the apps for both of your banks, and you can transfer some money from your ISA to your current account on the spot to solve that issue. That's how I have things set up.

That also means you can check your balance in a second, and thus will better manage the availability of money in your account.

If your banks don't offer this facility, find a better bank - it's 2018, not 1998.

FWIW, I'm finding that cash is becoming more and more deprecated all the time in the South East. These days you seem to get looked at strangely if using cash to pay for a cup of tea at a station cafe, for instance - they often prepare the card machine before even asking how you want to pay now.

There will come a point where those choosing to use cash when they could use card will have to pay the extra cost of doing so - cash machine fees are one aspect of this. Cash is a very expensive thing to process - though the real savings come when it is abolished as a method of payment.

Bletchleyite · 27 Oct 2018

FWIW, since I switched my current account to Monzo (their app is absolutely excellent - Starling is also similar) I've found myself controlling spending much better[1] as it's all much more visible. It provides the same benefits as "I've got this much cash until pay day and I can open my wallet and see how much is left" while providing much greater analysis of how it's being spent and where/when. I really would recommend anyone who does just draw a load of cash on payday so they can better manage what they have to get a Monzo card and account (you don't have to use it as your main account) and put that money into the account on payday to give it a go.

I used Monzo like that for about 6 months before deciding to fully switch, FWIW.

[1] Compared with just looking at my online banking every week or so and having a much more abstract view of what I was spending.

Teflon Lettuce · 27 Oct 2018

route:oxford said:
That's exactly how they do work, that's why all the major banks, contrary to the outrageous nonsense spouted by "Teflon Lettuce", issue debit cards with their basic bank accounts.

Here's the first three that I found...

https://www.barclays.co.uk/current-accounts/basic-account/
https://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/currentaccounts/cashminder
https://uk.virginmoney.com/virgin/current-account/essential-current-account.jsp

I think you should be very careful with the way you speak... I'm "spouting outrageous nonsense" am I? then explain how come I have a Basic Bank account that comes with a cashcard to withdraw from atm's? {it has no chip so cannot be used as a debit card}. I also have a savings account that is accessed via a cashcard... again no chip so not able to use it for purchases.

In any case, no matter what your circumstances or what accounts you hold it is absolutely outrageous that the banks have streamlined their branches so far that you are more likely than not to have to use a cash machine to access their funds and now there is this major push for cash machines to charge fees for accessing your own money!

Oh and one more point to think about.... many people {especially older people} still prefer to purchase with cash and will want to withdraw the money from the machine

Dai Corner · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
I think you should be very careful with the way you speak... I'm "spouting outrageous nonsense" am I? then explain how come I have a Basic Bank account that comes with a cashcard to withdraw from atm's? {it has no chip so cannot be used as a debit card}. I also have a savings account that is accessed via a cashcard... again no chip so not able to use it for purchases.

In any case, no matter what your circumstances or what accounts you hold it is absolutely outrageous that the banks have streamlined their branches so far that you are more likely than not to have to use a cash machine to access their funds and now there is this major push for cash machines to charge fees for accessing your own money!

Oh and one more point to think about.... many people {especially older people} still prefer to purchase with cash and will want to withdraw the money from the machine

A bank employee (probably two, for security) drives to the cash machine to fill it up. The customer withdraws his cash and spends it in the shop, takesway, and pub. They all go to the bank (perhaps miles away) to pay the cash in. Repeat as required.

Someone has to pay for all that. Shouldn't it be the cash user?

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

Dai Corner said:
A bank employee (probably two, for security) drives to the cash machine to fill it up. The customer withdraws his cash and spends it in the shop, takesway, and pub. They all go to the bank (perhaps miles away) to pay the cash in. Repeat as required.

Someone has to pay for all that. Shouldn't it be the cash user?

why? stores are charged per debit/ credit card transaction and those costs aren't passed onto the customer... ever wondered why small shops frequently have a £5 or £10 minimum spend limit on card transactions?

Bletchleyite · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
I think you should be very careful with the way you speak... I'm "spouting outrageous nonsense" am I? then explain how come I have a Basic Bank account that comes with a cashcard to withdraw from atm's? {it has no chip so cannot be used as a debit card}. I also have a savings account that is accessed via a cashcard... again no chip so not able to use it for purchases.

Some Basic Bank Accounts come with an online-only debit card, perhaps it would be better to choose one that does?

Oh and one more point to think about.... many people {especially older people} still prefer to purchase with cash and will want to withdraw the money from the machine

If people wish to continue using outdated payment methods when more modern ones are available to them it is not unfair that they should pay the cost of doing so.

With regard to tech adoption I think "can'ts" need protection and help, but "won'ts" just choose to shut themselves out of society and that is their choice and their loss.

Teflon Lettuce · 28 Oct 2018

Bletchleyite said:
If people wish to continue using outdated payment methods when more modern ones are available to them it is not unfair that they should pay the cost of doing so.

As long as you are willing to pay 2.5% on top of the ticket price if you make a credit card transaction... or you pay the transaction fee for debit card transactions.

At the end of the day the money that is in my bank account is mine why the hell should I be forced to pay to access my own money?

Another thing to think about for all those saying "pay by card"... what if you CAN'T because where you want to spend your money doesn't accept cards? My local barbers shop still only accepts cash, as does my local bus... and the places where you are more likely to find "cash only" businesses are in the deep rural areas... and where are you more likely to have only the choice of 1 cash machine for miles around? rural areas... so the more likely you are to need cash then the more likely you are to have to pay to access a cash machine.

DarloRich · 28 Oct 2018

route:oxford said:
If you have a card pay by card.

I've never understood why people who claim to have "financial issues" refuse to use cards to pay.

Right now, I've got the following offers by my Banks...

Halifax:-

10% Cashback at Spar, Waitrose, Coop, Robert Dyas
+6 other offers

First Direct:-

£5 off when you spend £40 on fuel at BP
+12 other offers

American Express

£5 off when you spend £20 at Amazon
£50 off when you spend £100 at Harrods
+25 other offers
Next month there'll be the £5 off when you spend £10 across tens of thousands of independent stores.

I save an absolute fortune every year by careful use of plastic and haven't used cash this year.

Bully for you. Not all of us qualify for such largesse from out banking partners

curly42 said:
What sort of charge are we talking about here ? I don't have any cards and have never used one of these machines so I have no idea of what sort of charges exist.

You don't have bank card. Are you sure !
About that?

Puffing Devil said:
This wouldn't happen if you had a credit card. Any reason you don't carry one?

And if you don't qualify for a credit card......

causton · 28 Oct 2018

Bletchleyite said:
FWIW, I'm finding that cash is becoming more and more deprecated all the time in the South East. These days you seem to get looked at strangely if using cash to pay for a cup of tea at a station cafe, for instance - they often prepare the card machine before even asking how you want to pay now.

I assume you are talking about the one at Bletchley station - I had the change in my pocket and by the time I had put my hand in and out my pocket they had already typed in the amount on the card reader :lol:

adrock1976 · 28 Oct 2018

There have been a couple of posts upthread that have mentioned that cash users should be charged for the processing costs.

I would be supportive of that but on one condition only: the banks that were bailed out during the global economic crisis 10 years ago to have repaid every penny of the bailout back, and once they have done that, then they could and only then consider introducing charges for cash transactions.

takno · 28 Oct 2018

adrock1976 said:
There have been a couple of posts upthread that have mentioned that cash users should be charged for the processing costs.

I would be supportive of that but on one condition only: the banks that were bailed out during the global economic crisis 10 years ago to have repaid every penny of the bailout back, and once they have done that, then they could and only then consider introducing charges for cash transactions.

Nice theory, but Barclays, Santander and Nationwide didn't take a bailout, and RBS is still more or less owned by the government. You'd basically only be able to make that argument about Lloyds (and therefore BoS/Halifax) and TSB. In practice most of the bailout was guarantees that were never called upon anyway, and there's no mechanism to get back the money in Lloyds that Osborne threw away by selling too early.

I agree that cash machine charges are pretty awful, and the banks should be forced to maintain a network at least equivalent to the branch network 20 years ago. They aren't entirely responsible for the push to get rid of free ones though. Companies are almost delusional in their push to squeeze out ever more rent from profoundly unprofitable locations where they should probably be subsidising the cash machine, and the government is topping it off by trying to charge extra business rates for the cash machines over and above what they are charging the premises where they are located. The arrangement that eliminated cross-bank cash machine charges in the early 2000s was always pretty fragile and is being stretched to the limit.

Puffing Devil · 28 Oct 2018

DarloRich said:
And if you don't qualify for a credit card......

Depends why, which is why I asked @krus_aragon, not you.

krus_aragon · 28 Oct 2018

Puffing Devil said:
This wouldn't happen if you had a credit card. Any reason you don't carry one?

I haven't owned one yet, mainly due to not wanting/needing one enough. Though one might concievably hit the credit limit on the card all the same.

Bletchleyite said:
Get the apps for both of your banks, and you can transfer some money from your ISA to your current account on the spot to solve that issue. That's how I have things set up.

That also means you can check your balance in a second, and thus will better manage the availability of money in your account.

If your banks don't offer this facility, find a better bank - it's 2018, not 1998.

This particular event was slightly closer to 1998 than 2018, as it happens.

These days I have access to a joint current account as well, so between those three options I find I'm well enough covered.

Dai Corner · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
why? stores are charged per debit/ credit card transaction and those costs aren't passed onto the customer... ever wondered why small shops frequently have a £5 or £10 minimum spend limit on card transactions?

I was suggesting that the cost of handling cash was higher than that of card payments. As well as the need to take time out to visit the bank business users generally get charged to pay cash in.

curly42 · 28 Oct 2018

DarloRich - yes I'm absolutley sure that I don't have any cards,as I don't have a bank account.

Dai Corner · 28 Oct 2018

curly42 said:
DarloRich - yes I'm absolutley sure that I don't have any cards,as I don't have a bank account.

Unless you're a cash in hand worker or pocket money recipient is it possible to have an income without having a bank account?

route:oxford · 28 Oct 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
I think you should be very careful with the way you speak... I'm "spouting outrageous nonsense" am I? then explain how come I have a Basic Bank account that comes with a cashcard to withdraw from atm's?

The company you bank with and accounts that you have form part of your lifestyle choices. You, or your partner may well have ticked the box at the time of opening saying "I/we don't want a debit card".

Teflon Lettuce said:
good for you... but there are many people who, through no fault of their own, can only get either a basic bank account or a cash card account.. neither of which can be used for card transactions as they do not provide debit cards... and it is usually the poorest in society that are stuck with these accounts and are therefore more likely to have to use a machine that charges a fee to access their money

I do not need to be careful about the way I speak. I am responding based on facts, and professional integrity. I've been involved with the promotion of basic banking services and the enhancements to those services for a quarter century.

Whereas as highlighted above, you are happy to wantonly promulgate falsehoods.

route:oxford · 28 Oct 2018

Dai Corner said:
Unless you're a cash in hand worker or pocket money recipient is it possible to have an income without having a bank account?

It's not impossible.

Think of "modern slavery" and the men kept in sheds at the Gypsy Camp in Oxford and around the country - they don't have bank accounts and barely exist.

Having no bank account or transmission product is a major indicator of an abusive relationship too. With partner, "friend" or relative keeping absolute control of finances and just giving a bit of pin money which must be accounted for absolutely - or face violent or mentally abusive consequences.

Of course, Children under the age of 11 are not currently able to get a debit card in their own name.

Cash Machines at Govia Thameslink Railway stations to charge a fee

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