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Arriva Rail North DOO

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Geeves

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I love the quotes about Northern being stuck in the 70s.

If it was it would have full mess rooms full of staff sitting playing cards all day and getting pissed. I can tell you the mess rooms are empty, the stations are run with an absolute minimum number of staff and the assets are absolutely battered everyday. I can tell you personally that if the station staff were not working overtime even the major offices would be shut, where do you propose these cuts are made A C Skinner?

Anyway it looks as though Northern know striking through Christmas will be terrible on all fronts but expect worse to come after the New Year.
 

Carlisle

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I love the quotes about Northern being stuck in the 70s.

If it was it would have full mess rooms full of staff sitting playing cards all day and getting pissed. I’d .
For a lucky few yes, however for the majority reality will have amounted to a longer working week doing a more physically demanding job, dealing with large volumes of freight, parcels and shunting duties using mostly outdated and not especially reliable stock on a small fraction of the budget rail enjoys today.
 
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the sniper

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For a lucky few yes, but a bit more research will
probably reveal the majority worked significantly more hours on a much physically harder job than today dealing with high volumes of freight, parcels and shunting duties using mostly ancient stock on a small fraction of the budget rail enjoys today

Lucky few? You think? "Probably". And nice edits...

Good to drop in and see you armchair experts are keeping these s*** show threads moving along at least! :lol:
 

Carlisle

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Lucky few? You think? "Probably". And nice edits...

Good to drop in and see you armchair experts are keeping these s*** show threads moving along at least! :lol:
Happy to be of service, & fairly secure in the knowledge the Mick Cash comedy club should safeguard my employment here for a while yet :s
 

pemma

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Unlike many on this forum, who still think its 1926 and that the Eton Rifles should be getting the trains moving again

As I live in an area where around half of people vote Tory (which I'm not one of) I honestly think some people are unaware of what Conservative voters think. Even the least pro-guard people on here are way to the left of many Conservative voters.
 

B&I

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As I live in an area where around half of people vote Tory (which I'm not one of) I honestly think some people are unaware of what Conservative voters think. Even the least pro-guard people on here are way to the left of many Conservative voters.


I will freely admit that I don't understand how Tory voters think, because I cannot understand how anyone thinks that they're any better off as a result of voting Tory.

What really mystifies me on this thread is the people who, in order to heap the blame for everything onto the RMT, pretend Northern are wonderful, or even half-competent. There are many things for which the RMT can be justly blamed, but Northern cannot avoid much of the blame for the day to day disaster that is their 'service'
 

Robertj21a

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I will freely admit that I don't understand how Tory voters think, because I cannot understand how anyone thinks that they're any better off as a result of voting Tory.

What really mystifies me on this thread is the people who, in order to heap the blame for everything onto the RMT, pretend Northern are wonderful, or even half-competent. There are many things for which the RMT can be justly blamed, but Northern cannot avoid much of the blame for the day to day disaster that is their 'service'

I don't recall anyone suggesting that Northern were wonderful. They have their faults, as does the RMT.
To me, the main difference is that one is a company attempting to run a business and the other is a union desperately attempting to retain members.
 

pemma

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I will freely admit that I don't understand how Tory voters think, because I cannot understand how anyone thinks that they're any better off as a result of voting Tory.

What really mystifies me on this thread is the people who, in order to heap the blame for everything onto the RMT, pretend Northern are wonderful, or even half-competent. There are many things for which the RMT can be justly blamed, but Northern cannot avoid much of the blame for the day to day disaster that is their 'service'

Remember this is the DOO thread - criticism of people being unable to get about due to strikes over DOO is appropriate for this thread, criticism of timetable, rolling stock or allocation issues gets posted in other threads.

The problem with some RMT members is they see anyone who doesn't support them as right wing Tories. Unfortunately, for them and for Corbyn most of the strike criticism is coming from Labour supporters who don't understand why they should be prevented from using public transport to get around, especially the young Labour supporters who don't recall BR strikes. It's generally the slightly richer people who are anti-Tory but can use their cars to get around or those who never use Northern services, who are the most supportive of the strikes.
 

XDM

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They always have, providing they were not 12-car on the stretch Colchester-Ipswich.

No the Anglia deal is an advance.

The new Norwich Liverpool St intercity trains will be able to operate DOO between Ipswich & London if a guard fails to appear.
Under present rules they are cancelled or operate ECS.
And all other 12 car trains will operate DOO between London & Ipswich. Only 8 car or less can at present.

Re comuToR saying he could guard & drive. That was a unique deal on Southeastern, a brother company of Southern.
It was not much used & part of a very big pay rise.
It was surrendered( i.e. Cancelled) by southeastern in exchange for ASLEF agreeing to extend DOO from Stroud to Gillingham.
Pointless now, as it so happens, as Thameslink DOO beyond to Rainham.

I raise these on this Northern thread as the original comments were made recently here as it shows ASLEF will make DOO deals in the current & recent climate. A poster here has implied they won't for Northern.
The evidence suggests the opposite, although it is up to the local membership with advice from head office
 

CaptainHaddock

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I don't recall anyone suggesting that Northern were wonderful. They have their faults, as does the RMT.
To me, the main difference is that one is a company attempting to run a business and the other is a union desperately attempting to retain members.

I think what's increasingly turning public opinion against the RMT is that at least Northern are doing the best they can to provide a service (however limited) to the public on strike days whereas the RMT clearly couldn't care less about the public so long as they get what they want.

Surely after ten saturdays in a row of strike days, the RMT must realise the strikes are having absolutely no effect in resolving the dispute and it's time to try a different approach?
 

B&I

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I don't recall anyone suggesting that Northern were wonderful. They have their faults, as does the RMT.
To me, the main difference is that one is a company attempting to run a business and the other is a union desperately attempting to retain members.


A number of people have tried to suggest that any faults in the normal operation of the service are down to staffing issues, and that the RMT are by arguing for retention of guards, prolonging those issues, whereas I would suggest that Northern's inexplicable approach to crew deployment would have more to do with that.

Also, I auppose Northern are trying to run a business, but only in the sense that, by creating some vestigial suggestion of a commercial operation, they can justify accepting a large amount of public subsidy to keep their operation afloat. Northern's management wouldn't care if no train ever ran, so long as they still got paid
 

Meerkat

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That’s pretty lazy stereotyping- could just as easily say the workers don’t care about the trains as long as they get paid.
Most management just want a quiet life, and it would be quietest if the trains ran and there were no passengers and politicians go mental about poor service.
The top management also want a quiet life. Even if it were true that they are just on a subsidy gravy train the best way to keep that gravy train running is to give politicians a quiet life and keep winning franchises. Public anger reduces the chance of more gravy train
 

pemma

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A number of people have tried to suggest that any faults in the normal operation of the service are down to staffing issues, and that the RMT are by arguing for retention of guards, prolonging those issues, whereas I would suggest that Northern's inexplicable approach to crew deployment would have more to do with that.

I think you've misunderstood what many on here are getting at. Those who post on here are well aware if ASLEF accept that under certain conditions their members will take out a train without a second person, that they will not just roll over and accept it if Northern start asking their members to take out trains without second persons for other reasons. However, the RMT are against services ever operating without a second person and pretend that if they don't take strike action that the list of reasons/excuses for a second person not being present will get longer and longer until no services operate with a second person.

If, hypothetically, an average Northern passenger sees 99% of the trains they intend to catch operate and 0.25% of the trains they intend to catch are cancelled due to issues with availability of a guard and 0.75% due to other reasons, is it not acceptable in your view to look at ways of preventing those 0.25% of services being cancelled?
 

pemma

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Most management just want a quiet life, and it would be quietest if the trains ran and there were no passengers

Err no it wouldn't. If there were no passengers it would mean revenue issues, that would mean management would constantly be looking at ways of cutting costs, whether it's looking at reducing the amount of rolling stock leased, making staff redundant, closing booking offices or even line closures.
 

Meerkat

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Typo...was supposed to read
Most management just want a quiet life, and it would be quietest if the trains ran and there were no passengers (and politicians) going mental about poor service
 

Carlisle

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Most management just want a quiet life, and it would be quietest if the trains ran and there were no passengers (and politicians) going mental about poor service
That’s the root of the industry’s current problems though, we’ve had 20 years of management almost always opting to sit back and make almost no changes until the DFT finally told them to get on with it .
 

NorthernSpirit

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However, the RMT are against services ever operating without a second person and pretend that if they don't take strike action that the list of reasons/excuses for a second person not being present will get longer and longer until no services operate with a second person.

I can't see the RMT lasting beyond 2020 as eventually its members and the general public will be at the end of their tether that one more stike will be the one that will break the camels back and the terminal demise of the RMT.

I do wonder if Mick Cash is on an ego trip?
 
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The RMT gave their old fashioned view of the railway, they want everything to be run like it was 20 years ago, a guard sitting in the back cab, the unions ruling the roost. Most unions exist to support the members, improve their pay and working conditions, work with employers where possible to secure good employment. However the RMT seem to be to focused on opposing modernisation, which has in a nutshell back fired as companies are now turning their back on the union and imposing changes. The Southern debacle highlights this they turned down various incentives, and compromises to the detriment of the union. A letter was sent out by the directors of the company, saying how much they value on board staff and how they will need them in order to comply with DfT specification and requirements and they would be happy to negotiate with the RMT however they have turned this down and they are now getting ready for another ballot over on board staff assisting with cleaning duties similar to Scotrail TEs when passing on trains in order to improve cleanliness scores in passenger surveys.
 

PR1Berske

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This is what I've said a while back on here. A trade union should be fighting for its members, yes, but the RMT is causing hardship to hardworking families and communities, making victims of the very ordinary people they should be representing (and indeed the very low paid workers represented by other unions!)

The RMT should be fighting for how to make DOO safe, not how to grind the entire rail industry to a halt.
 

pemma

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making victims of the very ordinary people they should be representing (and indeed the very low paid workers represented by other unions!)

When I previously made the point of a local group of GMB members who rely on the train to get to work being against the RMT strikes a number of the RMT members who post on here were dismissive of it, as if they are of the opinion if they go on strike every trade union member will support them. I actually wonder if allowing sympathy strikes might work against the RMT - given ASLEF aren't even striking on Northern why would other trade unions come out and support the RMT, or is the idea members of other unions would go on strike because they can't get to work when the RMT are striking?
 

PR1Berske

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When I previously made the point of a local group of GMB members who rely on the train to get to work being against the RMT strikes a number of the RMT members who post on here were dismissive of it, as if they are of the opinion if they go on strike every trade union member will support them. I actually wonder if allowing sympathy strikes might work against the RMT - given ASLEF aren't even striking on Northern why would other trade unions come out and support the RMT, or is the idea members of other unions would go on strike because they can't get to work when the RMT are striking?
For some on this thread the era of "one out all out" lives on!
 

Kite159

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I can't see the RMT lasting beyond 2020 as eventually its members and the general public will be at the end of their tether that one more stike will be the one that will break the camels back and the terminal demise of the RMT.

I do wonder if Mick Cash is on an ego trip?

I wonder if it will get to such a point where all the various bits of the railway industry band together and declare they will no longer recognise the RMT as an union? (if such a thing is remotely possible)
 

Andyh82

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I don’t think the RMT realise they could be causing long term damage to the Northern franchise with this excessive industrial action.

They think their action will only either but pressure on either getting the nasty privatised Germans out, or the nasty Tories out, and once one or both happens it will all go back to normal.

But what will happen next when either the next franchise is let, or the budget for Corbyn’s British Rail Northern division is decided, and costs outweigh revenues even more than they do now, due to leisure travellers abandoning the railways in 2018? Service cuts? Redundancies? No new trains again?
 

NorthernSpirit

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I wonder if it will get to such a point where all the various bits of the railway industry band together and declare they will no longer recognise the RMT as an union? (if such a thing is remotely possible)

Its possible though, Northern management could easily decide that they no longer reconise the RMT as a union but as a band of troublemakers hell bent on damaging the rail industry as a whole.

Northern could contact SWR (who are also having strike action) and declare to them that the RMT is no longer a union, then all the other TOC's take note and slowly but surely the RMT is finished and all over which member of staff does the doors at Northern.

I can see it happening.
I don’t think the RMT realise they could be causing long term damage to the Northern franchise with this excessive industrial action.

They think their action will only either but pressure on either getting the nasty privatised Germans out, or the nasty Tories out, and once one or both happens it will all go back to normal.

But what will happen next when either the next franchise is let, or the budget for Corbyn’s British Rail Northern division is decided, and costs outweigh revenues even more than they do now, due to leisure travellers abandoning the railways in 2018? Service cuts? Redundancies? No new trains again?

I can imagine seeing the next Northern franchise being fully DOO and staffed by non unionised employees, all because of the RMT's actions during this franchise.
 

Killingworth

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Its possible though, Northern management could easily decide that they no longer reconise the RMT as a union but as a band of troublemakers hell bent on damaging the rail industry as a whole.

Northern could contact SWR (who are also having strike action) and declare to them that the RMT is no longer a union, then all the other TOC's take note and slowly but surely the RMT is finished and all over which member of staff does the doors at Northern.

I can see it happening.

I can imagine seeing the next Northern franchise being fully DOO and staffed by non unionised employees, all because of the RMT's actions during this franchise.

Whilst it's possible I can't see it happening - yet! The usual course is for another union to recruit members and arrange to be recognised to act for them. The employer then withdraws recognition of the first union and agrees a deal. However that requires a large number of employees to change allegiance. Unionised work forces are usually very reluctant to give up the protection of a union altogether - and in the railway industry I don't blame them.

The most famous example is probably the UDM in the Nottinghamshire coalfield when working miners left the NUM. In another industry the union I was involved with became too militant for the main employer and is no longer recognised, two more compliant unions having split representation for a lower number of employees.

Seeing the pickets at the gate on Saturday, and the lack of trains on my line, I can't see this ending soon. However, a few right or wrong words can make a lot of difference, said on either or both sides! So far it's getting like the Western Front 1914-18 and the public doesn't see the need for it.

Please can those on all 3 sides (TOC, RMT, DfT) get their heads together so those of us on the 4th side (the poor souls wanting to use the trains) can start to rely on them 24/7 once again?

Of course the employer could take a nuclear option by saying they were totally closing the franchise down from 1st January until a deal is agreed for normal working. Possibly reopened line by line as workers agreed terms on that basis, maybe moving lines between depots to achieve that.

Or even worse, handing back the franchise so the RMT had to have another ballot for action against the new TOC. These are unlikely scenarios, but once the cats and the pigeons get really mixed up anything can happen, and all are likely to lose.
 

a_c_skinner

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If they are so passionate about the passengers why do so many hide it so well?

That is too harsh, most times I am on Northern there is good guarding. However there is a significant minority where the main concern for passengers seems to be not interrupting their enjoyment of the journey by the guard's presence.
 

LowLevel

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Funny how the this issue is meant to be about the passengers and protecting them. Most Northern guards in my experience can’t be bothered doing anything more than doors. I’ve had plenty of return tickets that have done me for multiple trips because they have never been checked. If they are so passionate about the passengers why do so many hide it so well?

The sweet irony being that fundamentally dishonest people like yourself that abuse flexible rail tickets will either result in the flexibility being removed or the retention of on board staff, I suppose! :lol:

I was once having a particularly bad morning and unluckily for one individual I caught him being thick enough to reuse the outward portion of an Anytime Return that had clearly been issued on the same train at the same time the previous day (I always clip them on issuing but if you're busy and rushing about you might forget).

He admitted this without too much trouble and seemed most put out when he was marched off the train at the next major station for an interview under caution. Professional looking chap as well, shame really.

Moral of the story - opportunism in no way excuses dishonesty, or if you prefer, it's not right to do wrong just because someone doesn't physically prevent you from doing so.
 

6Gman

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I can't see the RMT lasting beyond 2020 as eventually its members and the general public will be at the end of their tether that one more stike will be the one that will break the camels back and the terminal demise of the RMT.

I do wonder if Mick Cash is on an ego trip?

The flaw with this idea is that the members have actually voted to strike.
 
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