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Arriva Rail North DOO

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the sniper

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I can't see the RMT lasting beyond 2020 as eventually its members and the general public will be at the end of their tether that one more stike will be the one that will break the camels back and the terminal demise of the RMT.
I can imagine seeing the next Northern franchise being fully DOO and staffed by non unionised employees, all because of the RMT's actions during this franchise.

The next franchise will see the beginning of the winding down of the 'second person' grade, inevitably, with single manning widely becoming standard in the following franchise. I'm glad you can accept this unlike some here. The RMT dispute is entirely irrelevant to the realisation of this though in the medium to long term. Somebody will have to pay for whatever financial settlement ASLEF agree upon for accepting DOO working with the introduction of 'DCO'. People (particularly here) will buy into your narrative that the inevitable was actually the RMTs fault for resisting 'DCO' in the first place, rather than the entirely predictable outcome of 'DCO' that many in the industry, including the RMT, foresaw all along.

The RMT will struggle in the post Guard era as they become as powerless and toothless as most other unions in this country. The forum may rejoice at that, but sadly without the power of the Guards grade in collective bargaining the lower paid grades will also get shafted too.

The TOCs won't and don't need to jump into your silly ideas of 'declaring the RMT is no longer a union', whatever that means. They're already involved in a set program to undermine the RMT, they know where they're going and will just stay the course. No need to get trigger happy.

A letter was sent out by the directors of the company, saying how much they value on board staff and how they will need them in order to comply with DfT specification and requirements and they would be happy to negotiate with the RMT however they have turned this down and they are now getting ready for another ballot over on board staff assisting with cleaning duties similar to Scotrail TEs when passing on trains in order to improve cleanliness scores in passenger surveys.

Most people go by their employers actions, the working environment as they find it and their own judgement rather than falling for generic love letters from distant upper management. But I'm sure Sir Peter Hendy really does love you though, fear not.
 
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Tom Quinne

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The next franchise will see the beginning of the winding down of the 'second person' grade, inevitably, with single manning widely becoming standard in the following franchise. I'm glad you can accept this unlike some here. The RMT dispute is entirely irrelevant to the realisation of this though in the medium to long term. Somebody will have to pay for whatever financial settlement ASLEF agree upon for accepting DOO working with the introduction of 'DCO'. People (particularly here) will buy into your narrative that the inevitable was actually the RMTs fault for resisting 'DCO' in the first place, rather than the entirely predictable outcome of 'DCO' that many in the industry, including the RMT, foresaw all along.

The RMT will struggle in the post Guard era as they become as powerless and toothless as most other unions in this country. The forum may rejoice at that, but sadly without the power of the Guards grade in collective bargaining the lower paid grades will also get shafted too.

The TOCs won't and don't need to jump into your silly ideas of 'declaring the RMT is no longer a union', whatever that means. They're already involved in a set program to undermine the RMT, they know where they're going and will just stay the course. No need to get trigger happy.



Most people go by their employers actions, the working environment as they find it and their own judgement rather than falling for generic love letters from distant upper management. But I'm sure Sir Peter Hendy really does love you though, fear not.

The RMT represent Signallers and maintenance staff as well, both have the ability to shut down huge parts of the network should the need arise.
 

the sniper

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The RMT represent Signallers and maintenance staff as well, both have the ability to shut down huge parts of the network should the need arise.

Unless TOCs take over control of signalling and the p-way, that's almost entirely irrelevant for TOC staff. You do though highlight the nonsense of the idea that the RMT are engaged in an all out ideological war against the Government, yet have somehow forgotten that they actually have the power to shut down the entire network far more effectively if they were determined to do so...
 

Tom Quinne

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Exactly, although the Signalling Grade isn’t as unionised as traincrew, there’s also a TSSA / RMT spilt to contend with.
 

Agent_Squash

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Exactly, although the Signalling Grade isn’t as unionised as traincrew, there’s also a TSSA / RMT spilt to contend with.

Wasn't there an RMT press release involving a NR signaller at Barnham where they called everyone 'Brother'?
 

Carlisle

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You do though highlight the nonsense of the idea that the RMT are engaged in an all out ideological war against the Government, ..
They are, but as with North Korea they’re not suicidal either :'(.
 
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Robertj21a

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The RMT represent Signallers and maintenance staff as well, both have the ability to shut down huge parts of the network should the need arise.

Not always the best of ideas to encourage any government to look at further legislation......
 

Mollman

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I can imagine seeing the next Northern franchise being fully DOO and staffed by non unionised employees, all because of the RMT's actions during this franchise.

Until a train gets stuck in a blizzard on the S&C or other such event where the value of having a 2nd safety critical member of staff on board becomes apparent. Oh and someone works out the cost needed to gate every single station on the network to prevent fare evasion.
 

pemma

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A report the RMT won't like - a Transport Focus one giving the views of passengers. In summary, as you'd expect it says they're fed up of the strikes and have no problems with door duties transferring to the driver - with some seeing it as an advantage and they want a visible second second member of staff on board with some saying that currently does not happen and some saying lack of customer facing staff is their main concern with DCO. Passengers are also critical of Northern's ability to run a decent train service: http://d3cez36w5wymxj.cloudfront.ne...passengers-and-their-views-on-the-dispute.pdf
 
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Clip

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Until a train gets stuck in a blizzard on the S&C or other such event where the value of having a 2nd safety critical member of staff on board becomes apparent. Oh and someone works out the cost needed to gate every single station on the network to prevent fare evasion.

If a train is stuck in a blizzard then there isnt much a driver or guard can do really - unless you have imagined them getting out with a snow shovel and clearing the path for the train?
 

ComUtoR

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with some seeing it as an advantage and they want a visible second second member of staff on board

Isn't that what the RMT is fighting for ? The want to keep that second person on board. DOO removes that second member of staff. The intent of DCO is to run with a second member but the DOO element means they can run without. The DfT is pushing for trains to run without staff. Isn't that against what the passengers want ?

If passengers want staff onboard then why doesn't Northern agree to DCO and only DCO with no element of DOO and no services to run without a second member of staff.
 

pemma

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Isn't that what the RMT is fighting for ? The want to keep that second person on board.

They've said they're fighting for every train to have a safety critical guard on board, no ifs no buts and there's even been reports the RMT at Northern are unwilling to even accept a guard on board with door duties transferred to the driver, despite being willing to accept that elsewhere. The fact that some passengers want staff to be more visible than at present suggests they don't want things to remain as they are.

Incidentally there's currently another survey being undertaken asking people at stations (including staff) if they want a guaranteed guard on board and services cancelled if they are unavailable or a second person booked to be on the train but the train running without them in an emergency only. The survey is still being undertaken but so far around 75% prefer the latter.
 

Robertj21a

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Isn't that what the RMT is fighting for ? The want to keep that second person on board. DOO removes that second member of staff. The intent of DCO is to run with a second member but the DOO element means they can run without. The DfT is pushing for trains to run without staff. Isn't that against what the passengers want ?

If passengers want staff onboard then why doesn't Northern agree to DCO and only DCO with no element of DOO and no services to run without a second member of staff.


As far as I'm aware, the RMT is demanding a safety critical guard on every train. No exceptions whatsoever, even in an emergency situation. Clearly, to most observers, that's probably OTT and it's more likely to be related to the RMT wanting to keep as many members as possible.

For the *passengers* I reckon they'd be more than happy to have trains DOO + OBS. The OBS would be a 100% requirement other than a few, clearly identified, exceptional circumstances. It could be accompanied by a sizeable fine for any service running without an OBS in attendance.

It's the *blanket* intransigence from the RMT that makes them look rather silly.
 

ComUtoR

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They've said they're fighting for every train to have a safety critical guard on board, no ifs no buts and there's even been reports the RMT at Northern are unwilling to even accept a guard on board with door duties transferred to the driver,

Neither side is willing to compromise. DCO without DOO is the best compromise that could be achieved.

The problem with getting what you want is that no matter how loud people chant about customer service, it really isn't important to them. The second the service is run without that second member of staff then customer service becomes non existent but the passengers still complain about not getting it.
 

ComUtoR

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It's the *blanket* intransigence from the RMT that makes them look rather silly.

Neither side is making any compromise. Northern could agree to DCO only. Where is the compromise from Northern and the Dft ?
 

Bletchleyite

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Neither side is making any compromise. Northern could agree to DCO only. Where is the compromise from Northern and the Dft ?

Does their franchise allow for that, i.e. for them to commit to a second member of staff (non-safety-critical, so with solely retail and passenger care duties) on every train?

As an aside, I must admit to finding the way the term "OBS" is used on Southern services on a public facing basis a bit strange. Would it perhaps not be better to call them "Stewards" or something on a public facing basis even if OBS is the job title? Though I suppose that might make passengers think they should be flogging the proverbial crisps and tea, as the Divine Comedy might have it.
 

pemma

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The flaw with this idea is that the members have actually voted to strike.

As I pointed out a few weeks ago when someone asked a guard about strike dates her response was she hasn't voted as the vote was taken before she joined Northern and has also never been asked for her opinion on how often strikes should happen.
 

Bletchleyite

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As I pointed out a few weeks ago when someone asked a guard about strike dates her response was she hasn't voted as the vote was taken before she joined Northern and has also never been asked for her opinion on how often strikes should happen.

I believe the vote was sufficiently heavily in favour that the odd few wouldn't have tipped it. Equally I'm sure there are some who will have voted against the strikes, as at least some guards may well prefer the idea of being dedicated to revenue and customer service rather than having to prat about with the doors and risk being dragged through Court if someone manages to get injured when boarding (ref Martin Zee), and realistically Northern have so much old rolling stock that there are going to be traditional guard's jobs for those who want them for as long as they are likely to want them.
 

pemma

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I believe the vote was sufficiently heavily in favour that the odd few wouldn't have tipped it. Equally I'm sure there are some who will have voted against the strikes, as at least some guards may well prefer the idea of being dedicated to revenue and customer service rather than having to prat about with the doors and risk being dragged through Court if someone manages to get injured when boarding (ref Martin Zee), and realistically Northern have so much old rolling stock that there are going to be traditional guard's jobs for those who want them for as long as they are likely to want them.

The real question is whether a significant number of the old guards who refuse to accept any change to their role have had enough of Northern and gone elsewhere, leaving relatively new recruits to take their place.
 

Robertj21a

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Neither side is making any compromise. Northern could agree to DCO only. Where is the compromise from Northern and the Dft ?


Why does the DfT, or Northern, need to compromise ?. Just because a union doesn't like something, that's no reason for the company/management to back down from what they perceive to be necessary.

It's because of stubborn 'dinosaur' unions like the RMT that the whole Trade Union movement gets tarred with the same brush.
 

Carlisle

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It's because of stubborn 'dinosaur' unions like the RMT that the whole Trade Union movement gets tarred with the same brush.
Yes, I can’t recall ever reading that any of those union dominated professions or factories of the 1970s actually delivered a superior product because of it, but do understand unions were a very important part of many industrial reforms in the decades prior to that .
 
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NorthernSpirit

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Until a train gets stuck in a blizzard on the S&C or other such event where the value of having a 2nd safety critical member of staff on board becomes apparent. Oh and someone works out the cost needed to gate every single station on the network to prevent fare evasion.

This is the thing. I for one still wish to see most services crewed by two people, however the way the RMT are going at it with strinke after strike, week after week is only making more and more people go against them. In the end no one wins.

I did suggest on a few pages back that both the driver and guard could be trained up into doing each others roles to enable a flexible crew so that there still is two people onboard. Yes there is the cost element but in the long term there would be savings with a flexible crew rather than having DOO, DCO or the current rigid guard + driver.

As in the event that the driver is incapacitated, the guard could step in and take control of the unit and get it to the nearest point of safety, rather than having to send out for a replacement driver who may or may not be available.
 

pemma

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This is the thing. I for one still wish to see most services crewed by two people, however the way the RMT are going at it with strinke after strike, week after week is only making more and more people go against them. In the end no one wins.

I did suggest on a few pages back that both the driver and guard could be trained up into doing each others roles to enable a flexible crew so that there still is two people onboard. Yes there is the cost element but in the long term there would be savings with a flexible crew rather than having DOO, DCO or the current rigid guard + driver.

As in the event that the driver is incapacitated, the guard could step in and take control of the unit and get it to the nearest point of safety, rather than having to send out for a replacement driver who may or may not be available.

Sounds nice on paper but in practice if the guard is trained as a driver they'll have to do driving regularly to retain their knowledge and then if they're driving regularly the union will demand they are paid driver's salaries. Then instead of the two people on board having a combined salary of something like £70,000 it'll instead be something like £100,000.
 

387star

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The pacers withdrawal is imminent? Isn't training about to commence on their replacement?

Surely ASLEF will need to get involved soonrr or later

When are these DCO services planned to operate.. next year?
 

pemma

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According to Northern's Twitter feed the RMT have moved their red lines since agreeing to take part in ACAS talks:

Northern said:
We have offered to explore all options, including those RMT has agreed with other train operators, but they refuse to discuss these with Northern for reasons known only to them.

The RMT changed its mind about what it would discuss between the first and second meetings at ACAS, making it impossible to progress.

https://twitter.com/crazyh/status/1057548428316696576
 
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pemma

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The pacers withdrawal is imminent? Isn't training about to commence on their replacement?

Surely ASLEF will need to get involved soonrr or later

When are these DCO services planned to operate.. next year?

The 195s and 331s can operate with or without guards. They also aren't direct Pacer replacements and only indirectly replacing some of the Pacers - with cascaded Sprinters, 170s and 319s/769s replacing others.
 
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